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Thread: Can you OC at a church's garage sale?

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran Verd's Avatar
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    Can you OC at a church's garage sale?

    The sale will be taking place both out in the parking lot, in the reserved parking area, and indoors. I plan on stopping there on my way home and I would rather not leave my gun in my car.

    Can I do this, or is it a bit "murky" in regards to the law?
    One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them. Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796.
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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verd View Post
    The sale will be taking place both out in the parking lot, in the reserved parking area, and indoors. I plan on stopping there on my way home and I would rather not leave my gun in my car.

    Can I do this, or is it a bit "murky" in regards to the law?
    Oh gee, some one will quote the statute but I think NO. Without permission the firearm must remain in the vehicle, out of site on the Church property.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    You CAN, but they can ask you to leave as well.

    Might trigger an encounter with the police.
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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    IIRC, curches are a prohibited place to carry, even for CC. I'm not as familiar with the reprecussions for OCg in a prohibited area. Are they similiar to CC?

    Best thing is to CC, if you don't want to leave it in the car.

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    Regular Member xdmcompact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    IIRC, curches are a prohibited place to carry, even for CC. I'm not as familiar with the reprecussions for OCg in a prohibited area. Are they similiar to CC?

    Best thing is to CC, if you don't want to leave it in the car.
    Churches usually have an exemption with a CCW, same as schools check local ordinances. You do have to have permission from the Pastor or principal.

    Example:

    (8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any school, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof; or



    (D)Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection (a) of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to section 571.094, RSMo or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I'm thinking you missed the important part about carry at the church:

    8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into ....
    I am not sure how your state courts interpret that statute via case law but the plain words seem to say that if there's not a worship service going on it's not forbidden. Also, the phrasing "into a church or place ...." suggestes it only applies to the interior of a building/structure. If you stay outside it sounds like you might actually be OK.

    Any of you Missouri legal eagles care to dig up the case law to point out any possible flaws?

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member xdmcompact's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I'm thinking you missed the important part about carry at the church:

    8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into ....


    I am not sure how your state courts interpret that statute via case law but the plain words seem to say that if there's not a worship service going on it's not forbidden. Also, the phrasing "into a church or place ...." suggestes it only applies to the interior of a building/structure. If you stay outside it sounds like you might actually be OK.

    Any of you Missouri legal eagles care to dig up the case law to point out any possible flaws?

    stay safe.
    Yes and in that ordinance (D) gives the exemption

    (D)Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection (a) of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to section 571.094, RSMo or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

    This varies by municipality so this is just an example!
    Last edited by xdmcompact; 10-07-2011 at 07:10 PM.

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    Regular Member cshoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verd View Post
    The sale will be taking place both out in the parking lot, in the reserved parking area, and indoors. I plan on stopping there on my way home and I would rather not leave my gun in my car.

    Can I do this, or is it a bit "murky" in regards to the law?
    The answer is, that it is not at all "murky" in regards to state law. Under RSMO 571.030.1.(8):

    A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:
    .
    .
    .
    (8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof; or
    Now if you have a valid CCW endorsement, you are exempt from this statute under RSMO 571.030.4:

    4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.
    Now IF you meet the requirements for the exemption under state law, then you would next have to check local ordinances that regulate/restrict/prohibit open carry in the jurisdiction in which the church is located. If the local ordinances prohibit OC, then it's a NO GO.

    If local ordinances are good to go, then you next have to consider the policy of the church. They own the property, therefore, they set the rules. If they say "no guns" then, again, it's NO GO - open, concealed, or otherwise.

    If all of the above check out (you meet the requirements for the exemption under state law, there are no local ordinances against it, and the church has no policy against it), then yes, you can open carry in the church.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran Verd's Avatar
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    Thanks guys!

    I OC-ied in the parking lot where the majority of the sale was going on (not religious at all, but my family is catholic and I do have a warm spot in my heart for catholic churches due to childhood memories) and there was not an issue. Many "old-timers" were glad to see the gun and I was told in the strictest of confidence by a little old lady that she never goes anywhere without her enourmous handbad and Glock!

    I want to get a CCL for situations such as this, but I can't yet afford the cost at this time. Maybe next year.
    One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them. Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796.
    If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
    Find businesses that are pro gun and those that aren't. Support Friend or Foe by using it!

  10. #10
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    This is all so simple to understand, can't see where the confusion is? (KIDDING!)


    Originally Posted by Verd
    The sale will be taking place both out in the parking lot, in the reserved parking area, and indoors. I plan on stopping there on my way home and I would rather not leave my gun in my car.

    Can I do this, or is it a bit "murky" in regards to the law?
    The answer is, that it is not at all "murky" in regards to state law. Under RSMO 571.030.1.(8):


    A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:
    .
    .
    .
    (8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof; or
    Now if you have a valid CCW endorsement, you are exempt from this statute under RSMO 571.030.4:


    4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.
    Now IF you meet the requirements for the exemption under state law, then you would next have to check local ordinances that regulate/restrict/prohibit open carry in the jurisdiction in which the church is located. If the local ordinances prohibit OC, then it's a NO GO.

    If local ordinances are good to go, then you next have to consider the policy of the church. They own the property, therefore, they set the rules. If they say "no guns" then, again, it's NO GO - open, concealed, or otherwise.

    If all of the above check out (you meet the requirements for the exemption under state law, there are no local ordinances against it, and the church has no policy against it), then yes, you can open carry in the church.

    Now if you have a valid CCW endorsement, you are exempt from this statute under RSMO 571.030.4:



    Now IF you meet the requirements for the exemption under state law, then you would next have to check local ordinances that regulate/restrict/prohibit open carry in the jurisdiction in which the church is located. If the local ordinances prohibit OC, then it's a NO GO.

    If local ordinances are good to go, then you next have to consider the policy of the church. They own the property, therefore, they set the rules. If they say "no guns" then, again, it's NO GO - open, concealed, or otherwise.

    If all of the above check out (you meet the requirements for the exemption under state law, there are no local ordinances against it, and the church has no policy against it), then yes, you can open carry in the church.[/QUOTE]
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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