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Can you OC at a church's garage sale?

Verd

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
381
Location
Lampe, Missouri, United States
The sale will be taking place both out in the parking lot, in the reserved parking area, and indoors. I plan on stopping there on my way home and I would rather not leave my gun in my car.

Can I do this, or is it a bit "murky" in regards to the law?
 

mspgunner

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Ellisville, Missouri, USA
The sale will be taking place both out in the parking lot, in the reserved parking area, and indoors. I plan on stopping there on my way home and I would rather not leave my gun in my car.

Can I do this, or is it a bit "murky" in regards to the law?

Oh gee, some one will quote the statute but I think NO. Without permission the firearm must remain in the vehicle, out of site on the Church property.
 

LMTD

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, ,
You CAN, but they can ask you to leave as well.

Might trigger an encounter with the police.
 

Redbaron007

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2011
Messages
1,613
Location
SW MO
IIRC, curches are a prohibited place to carry, even for CC. I'm not as familiar with the reprecussions for OCg in a prohibited area. Are they similiar to CC?

Best thing is to CC, if you don't want to leave it in the car.
 

xdmcompact

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
289
Location
St Louis City
IIRC, curches are a prohibited place to carry, even for CC. I'm not as familiar with the reprecussions for OCg in a prohibited area. Are they similiar to CC?

Best thing is to CC, if you don't want to leave it in the car.

Churches usually have an exemption with a CCW, same as schools check local ordinances. You do have to have permission from the Pastor or principal.

Example:

(8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any school, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof; or



(D)Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection (a) of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to section 571.094, RSMo or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.
 

skidmark

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Jan 15, 2007
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Valhalla
I'm thinking you missed the important part about carry at the church:

8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into ....

I am not sure how your state courts interpret that statute via case law but the plain words seem to say that if there's not a worship service going on it's not forbidden. Also, the phrasing "into a church or place ...." suggestes it only applies to the interior of a building/structure. If you stay outside it sounds like you might actually be OK.

Any of you Missouri legal eagles care to dig up the case law to point out any possible flaws?

stay safe.
 

xdmcompact

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 21, 2011
Messages
289
Location
St Louis City
I'm thinking you missed the important part about carry at the church:

8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into ....


I am not sure how your state courts interpret that statute via case law but the plain words seem to say that if there's not a worship service going on it's not forbidden. Also, the phrasing "into a church or place ...." suggestes it only applies to the interior of a building/structure. If you stay outside it sounds like you might actually be OK.

Any of you Missouri legal eagles care to dig up the case law to point out any possible flaws?

stay safe.

Yes and in that ordinance (D) gives the exemption

(D)Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection (a) of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to section 571.094, RSMo or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

This varies by municipality so this is just an example!
 
Last edited:

cshoff

Regular Member
Joined
May 20, 2010
Messages
687
Location
, Missouri, USA
The sale will be taking place both out in the parking lot, in the reserved parking area, and indoors. I plan on stopping there on my way home and I would rather not leave my gun in my car.

Can I do this, or is it a bit "murky" in regards to the law?

The answer is, that it is not at all "murky" in regards to state law. Under RSMO 571.030.1.(8):

A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:
.
.
.
(8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof; or

Now if you have a valid CCW endorsement, you are exempt from this statute under RSMO 571.030.4:

4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

Now IF you meet the requirements for the exemption under state law, then you would next have to check local ordinances that regulate/restrict/prohibit open carry in the jurisdiction in which the church is located. If the local ordinances prohibit OC, then it's a NO GO.

If local ordinances are good to go, then you next have to consider the policy of the church. They own the property, therefore, they set the rules. If they say "no guns" then, again, it's NO GO - open, concealed, or otherwise.

If all of the above check out (you meet the requirements for the exemption under state law, there are no local ordinances against it, and the church has no policy against it), then yes, you can open carry in the church.
 

Verd

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
381
Location
Lampe, Missouri, United States
Thanks guys!

I OC-ied in the parking lot where the majority of the sale was going on (not religious at all, but my family is catholic and I do have a warm spot in my heart for catholic churches due to childhood memories) and there was not an issue. Many "old-timers" were glad to see the gun and I was told in the strictest of confidence by a little old lady that she never goes anywhere without her enourmous handbad and Glock!

I want to get a CCL for situations such as this, but I can't yet afford the cost at this time. Maybe next year.
 

mspgunner

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
Messages
1,966
Location
Ellisville, Missouri, USA
This is all so simple to understand, can't see where the confusion is? (KIDDING!)


Originally Posted by Verd
The sale will be taking place both out in the parking lot, in the reserved parking area, and indoors. I plan on stopping there on my way home and I would rather not leave my gun in my car.

Can I do this, or is it a bit "murky" in regards to the law?
The answer is, that it is not at all "murky" in regards to state law. Under RSMO 571.030.1.(8):


A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:
.
.
.
(8) Carries a firearm or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use into any church or place where people have assembled for worship, or into any election precinct on any election day, or into any building owned or occupied by any agency of the federal government, state government, or political subdivision thereof; or
Now if you have a valid CCW endorsement, you are exempt from this statute under RSMO 571.030.4:


4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.
Now IF you meet the requirements for the exemption under state law, then you would next have to check local ordinances that regulate/restrict/prohibit open carry in the jurisdiction in which the church is located. If the local ordinances prohibit OC, then it's a NO GO.

If local ordinances are good to go, then you next have to consider the policy of the church. They own the property, therefore, they set the rules. If they say "no guns" then, again, it's NO GO - open, concealed, or otherwise.

If all of the above check out (you meet the requirements for the exemption under state law, there are no local ordinances against it, and the church has no policy against it), then yes, you can open carry in the church.

Now if you have a valid CCW endorsement, you are exempt from this statute under RSMO 571.030.4:



Now IF you meet the requirements for the exemption under state law, then you would next have to check local ordinances that regulate/restrict/prohibit open carry in the jurisdiction in which the church is located. If the local ordinances prohibit OC, then it's a NO GO.

If local ordinances are good to go, then you next have to consider the policy of the church. They own the property, therefore, they set the rules. If they say "no guns" then, again, it's NO GO - open, concealed, or otherwise.

If all of the above check out (you meet the requirements for the exemption under state law, there are no local ordinances against it, and the church has no policy against it), then yes, you can open carry in the church.[/QUOTE]
 
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