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Thread: Harassed for OC.... at one place I'd never expect it

  1. #1
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Harassed for OC.... at one place I'd never expect it

    I just got back from the local Old Country Store here in Freeland. This is one of the few place I never expected to get outright harassed for open carrying. Now I've OC'd in this place plenty of times, and on more than one occasion one of the employees was so happy about it that he insisted on practically dragging me around the store and showing me off to all his co-workers for "exercising my 2A rights," a little awkward but a nice reception at least.

    So today I pull in and there's a guy working a forklift who was kinda giving me an off look before I even got out. I was in a weird spot, so soon as I did I asked him if it was ok to park there. He says "sure, but you'll need to leave your gun in your truck." Given my previous experience there that kinda short circuited me and I had to think for a second... "Um, now why might that be?" He goes on to say that "well this is a family store" and you can't open carry in WA, that's it's a concealed carry state & he knows the law. Also says that the manager at the Ace Hardware across the street had been talking to the sheriff about it and sheriff said so. I told him I'm a regular customer in that Ace, OC every time, have spoken to the manager about just this issue and explained the law, manager was entirely civil and seem legitimately interested (think I had another thread on that one actually), anyways, tried explaining the actual law to him & he wouldn't hear of it. Went off in a huff to "look it up [him]self."

    Hung around for a minute, said screw it, walked in, asked for the owner/manager. No one there Sundays but other employees quite friendly. Walked around, picked up a bag of hay, went to the register, paid for that & a big bag of cedar shavings. Folks at registers were quite friendly as usual, even ended up spending a little extra time sorting out a little confusion over the shavings. No one said anything further to me, but I could hear this other guy in the back talking about it. Seemed to be on the loosing end of the argument too. Finished my business & left, no sheriff, no further contact.

    Just left me thinking OMG, WTF??

    Goes to show how fast a "carry friendly" place can become not so.
    Last edited by Metalhead47; 10-09-2011 at 03:17 PM.
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  2. #2
    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Goes to show how fast a "carry friendly" place can become not so.
    I wouldn't go quite that far. After all, one uneducated forklift operator does not a hostile business make. In fact, if he was later on the losing end of an argument with his manager about it I'd say their OC-friendliness is being reinforced.

    Now if the manager had come over and jacked you up, that would be a different matter.

    Sounds to me like it's still an excellent place to take your business.

  3. #3
    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    Shouldn't have asked the guy about your parking. Park it and go.


    Better to ask for forgiveness than for permission. How easy is it to say no? I'm learning to go with this more and more.


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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hardin View Post
    I wouldn't go quite that far. After all, one uneducated forklift operator does not a hostile business make. In fact, if he was later on the losing end of an argument with his manager about it I'd say their OC-friendliness is being reinforced.

    Now if the manager had come over and jacked you up, that would be a different matter.

    Sounds to me like it's still an excellent place to take your business.
    +1

    Yet another example of how the ambiguous wording 9.41.270 messes with the perception of OC legality. I have no doubt this "Sheriff" (if this guy wasn't just tossing around names to fortify is position) was probably basing his opinion on his interpretation of this RCW.

    When I meet someone who believes that OC is illegal, I ask them to cite which RCW makes it so. 99 out of 100 cant, and say its just something they read in a paper or on a forum, or heard from a friend or LEO. Of the very few that can think of a cite, ALL of them cite ..270. I just tell them they need to do the research into the legislative intent of that RCW, then get back to me.

    Its not worth arguing further with ignorant employees.

    Now, business managers and owners I will actually take the time and effort to talk it through with if they are willing to talk about it.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    When I meet someone who believes that OC is illegal, I ask them to cite which RCW makes it so. 99 out of 100 cant,
    Could not resist, according to your statement there is a law prohibiting open carry! Would you mind quoting it? I bet you 100 out of 100 can't
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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    We’ve become somewhat spoiled. There was a time (not too long ago either) when open carry would get you hassled every time. I was asked to leave Cabela’s by three different employees in a single visit, when meeting a group of other OCers there! There was a time when the Tacoma police would handcuff you for open carry. I remember a TPD Sargent telling me (when my hands were cuffed behind my back) that they could stop anyone for any reason, and if I insisted on carrying openly I should expect it.

    So one misinformed knucklehead pestered you? Look at it as a teaching moment-then one more knucklehead will become educated, resulting in a few more knuckleheads having a better understanding of the law. Trust me, it’s a lot better now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Could not resist, according to your statement there is a law prohibiting open carry! Would you mind quoting it? I bet you 100 out of 100 can't
    They cant but that wont stop 1 or 2 of them from making something up.

  8. #8
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Could not resist, according to your statement there is a law prohibiting open carry! Would you mind quoting it? I bet you 100 out of 100 can't
    Nice play on words, but point taken.

    The idea of the phrasing is to get them to think about what they are saying, as they are likely coming at it from an assumption that there IS a law, but don't know what it is. The other 1 percent just believe that .270 is that law. Frankly, depending on the LEO encounter, the prosecutor, judge and jury, .270 may indeed end up being interpreted that way as we have recently seen with some cases.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCDH View Post
    Nice play on words, but point taken.

    The idea of the phrasing is to get them to think about what they are saying, as they are likely coming at it from an assumption that there IS a law, but don't know what it is. The other 1 percent just believe that .270 is that law. Frankly, depending on the LEO encounter, the prosecutor, judge and jury, .270 may indeed end up being interpreted that way as we have recently seen with some cases.
    There has been issues relating to 270 but when a person is able to read in the full context of 270 which the first half is describing what instruments and then "and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons." keeps being left out of fulfilling the paragraph.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
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    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  10. #10
    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    There has been issues relating to 270 but when a person is able to read in the full context of 270 which the first half is describing what instruments and then "and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons." keeps being left out of fulfilling the paragraph.
    I don't think that section its being left out of the fulfillment, its just being interpreted outside of the legislative intent.

    Its ambiguous wording at best, and the intent of the 270 law has long been lost to history for almost anyone who matters in the chain of prosecution.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    We’ve become somewhat spoiled. There was a time (not too long ago either) when open carry would get you hassled every time. I was asked to leave Cabela’s by three different employees in a single visit, when meeting a group of other OCers there! There was a time when the Tacoma police would handcuff you for open carry. I remember a TPD Sargent telling me (when my hands were cuffed behind my back) that they could stop anyone for any reason, and if I insisted on carrying openly I should expect it.

    So one misinformed knucklehead pestered you? Look at it as a teaching moment-then one more knucklehead will become educated, resulting in a few more knuckleheads having a better understanding of the law. Trust me, it’s a lot better now.
    This.

    I remain eternally awed & grateful to all y'all "vanguard" who went before & suffered through all that crap to make it so rare today.

    Unfortunately, it's impossible to teach someone who does not wish to learn. I will, of course, be going back there. Guess I just need to keep my guard up next time.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

  12. #12
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    The boss probably put this "know it all" on the forklift in order to keep him from ******* off as few customers as possible. In my experience with country feed stores, the guys loading can be either the nicest people you'll meet, or the biggest bozo's on the planet. Seems like you caught one of the latter.

    I wouldn't worry about it. From your description of following events, the rest of the Store knows he's a bozo too.


    I used to work with a guy who'd always say "My Mother told me there would always be people like this although she never told me WHY."

    Just remember the Chinese philosophy of Yin Yang. For some reason there has to be a balance of good/bad, smart/stupid, etc. This guy is merely providing "balance".
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    Regular Member badkarma's Avatar
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    I have heard of Open Carry issues at the Kenmore gun range. Another place I plan on spending $0 and making sure to tell everyone about it.

  14. #14
    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    I say it turned out well. And the scare tactic from the fork lift jockeys saying the manager at ACE spoke with Buford "T" justice didn't work. Or you could push it and ask Buford why you hear his law differs from state law?

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    Seemed to be on the loosing end of the argument too. Finished my business & left, no sheriff, no further contact.

    Just left me thinking OMG, WTF??
    Loosing end? Apply more duct tape!

    Glad you didn't get jammed up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metalhead47 View Post
    I just got back from the local Old Country Store here in Freeland. This is one of the few place I never expected to get outright harassed for open carrying. Now I've OC'd in this place plenty of times, and on more than one occasion one of the employees was so happy about it that he insisted on practically dragging me around the store and showing me off to all his co-workers for "exercising my 2A rights," a little awkward but a nice reception at least.

    So today I pull in and there's a guy working a forklift who was kinda giving me an off look before I even got out. I was in a weird spot, so soon as I did I asked him if it was ok to park there. He says "sure, but you'll need to leave your gun in your truck." Given my previous experience there that kinda short circuited me and I had to think for a second... "Um, now why might that be?" He goes on to say that "well this is a family store" and you can't open carry in WA, that's it's a concealed carry state & he knows the law. Also says that the manager at the Ace Hardware across the street had been talking to the sheriff about it and sheriff said so. I told him I'm a regular customer in that Ace, OC every time, have spoken to the manager about just this issue and explained the law, manager was entirely civil and seem legitimately interested (think I had another thread on that one actually), anyways, tried explaining the actual law to him & he wouldn't hear of it. Went off in a huff to "look it up [him]self."

    Hung around for a minute, said screw it, walked in, asked for the owner/manager. No one there Sundays but other employees quite friendly. Walked around, picked up a bag of hay, went to the register, paid for that & a big bag of cedar shavings. Folks at registers were quite friendly as usual, even ended up spending a little extra time sorting out a little confusion over the shavings. No one said anything further to me, but I could hear this other guy in the back talking about it. Seemed to be on the loosing end of the argument too. Finished my business & left, no sheriff, no further contact.

    Just left me thinking OMG, WTF??

    Goes to show how fast a "carry friendly" place can become not so.

    did forkift dude work for the store? If so, it's a dicey situation for you to be told to not come in w/ the handgun, and then for you to do it anyhow...... can get trespassed fairly quick that way
    If he didn't work for the store, then disregard.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jddssc121 View Post
    did forkift dude work for the store? If so, it's a dicey situation for you to be told to not come in w/ the handgun, and then for you to do it anyhow...... can get trespassed fairly quick that way
    If he didn't work for the store, then disregard.
    Possibly, that is if the Owner/Manager or person in charge wants to press charges. It is not just any tom dick or harry working in a store that most PD's will not file a complaint from when it comes to Store operation.

    Your point is valid if the Manager/Owner does back this dweebs position of no guns.
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    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jddssc121 View Post
    did forkift dude work for the store? If so, it's a dicey situation for you to be told to not come in w/ the handgun, and then for you to do it anyhow...... can get trespassed fairly quick that way
    If he didn't work for the store, then disregard.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Possibly, that is if the Owner/Manager or person in charge wants to press charges. It is not just any tom dick or harry working in a store that most PD's will not file a complaint from when it comes to Store operation.

    Your point is valid if the Manager/Owner does back this dweebs position of no guns.
    Keep in mind now, at no point was I actually asked to leave. The schmutz on the forklift (yes, an employee far as I can tell), actually inferred that I should stay while he went to "look it up." Never even got the chance for the "am I being asked to leave?" line. And the other two or three employees I dealt with certainly didn't seem to have an issue with it.
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jddssc121 View Post
    did forkift dude work for the store? If so, it's a dicey situation for you to be told to not come in w/ the handgun, and then for you to do it anyhow...... can get trespassed fairly quick that way
    If he didn't work for the store, then disregard.
    Possibly, that is if the Owner/Manager or person in charge wants to press charges. It is not just any tom dick or harry working in a store that most PD's will not file a complaint from when it comes to Store operation.

    Your point is valid if the Manager/Owner does back this dweebs position of no guns.
    You still must be asked by an agent of the property to leave. I would not take some forklift employee's word to be an agent of the property unless he specifically stated he's an agent of the property at which point I would push for identification before leaving so it can be verified later.

    Another example, you’re in the parking lot going into Walmart and the cart return employee tells you to leave because your carrying. Do you take that as verbal command to leave private property of Walmart? No, you ask for the manager or property owner which has been given the power of the property.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

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  20. #20
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    An hourly employee for any company will never have the authority to sign a legally binding contract for that company. Therefore, an hourly employee cannot file a legal complaint for that company that could very possibly result in legal action against the company. (That encludes an "assisant manager" at some place like Wal-Mart and Home Depot)

    Obviously, that forklift driver did not know hs place in the food chain of that store any better than he knew the law.

    BTW: Thank Mike Lowry for .270

  21. #21
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    An hourly employee for any company will never have the authority to sign a legally binding contract for that company. Therefore, an hourly employee cannot file a legal complaint for that company that could very possibly result in legal action against the company. (That encludes an "assisant manager" at some place like Wal-Mart and Home Depot)

    Obviously, that forklift driver did not know hs place in the food chain of that store any better than he knew the law.

    BTW: Thank Mike Lowry for .270
    It's done all the time. When a shoplifting complaint is signed at a retail store you don't think they haul out a Vice President (an Officer of the corporation) do you?

    The only difference between a Manager and an Hourly Employee is a matter of not having to pay the hourly employee overtime. There may be a company policy that requires the Manager to sign complaints but nothing in criminal or civil law.

    As for a non "officer of the corporation" signing any binding agreement, I did it all the time. I signed numerous "binding contacts" for the Company I retired from. Averaged over 6 Million dollars per year of purchase contacts and agreements. I did so under a "signing authority agreement" in place at the Company. They authorized me these "powers" yet didn't want to make me a Vice President (which was OK because I made more than some of them on the Staff.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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  22. #22
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    As you also know, you could not have signed for the company without that special "permission slip", and you could only sign for what that "permission slip" was written in relation to. A purchasing agent cannot sign a check, even if he can legally bind the corporation to contract that will require that check. Correct?

    Let's say you are a purchasing agent for company X, and you contract to purchase something small from me that costs less than $5000. I perform on that contract to my detriment, but your company will not issue a check because the purchase order was made outside of you authority, not dollar authority, but type of item. When I take you to small claims court, who has to answer to the judge?

    It is the same thing with say a Wal-Mart...An hourly employee can call the cops because you are open carrying in the store, but he cannot sign the complaint. Even if he incorrectly does sign a complaint, it would be easily overruled....It is not his butt on the line with corporate, it is the store managers.

  23. #23
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    As you also know, you could not have signed for the company without that special "permission slip", and you could only sign for what that "permission slip" was written in relation to. A purchasing agent cannot sign a check, even if he can legally bind the corporation to contract that will require that check. Correct?
    What's funny about this is that all the checks our company wrote were signed by computer. All you needed was the password that activated the "Signature" function (and yes, I did).
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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