My personal thoughts

After kicking back and reading many many postings on this website I think I have uncovered a bit of why more people seem cold to the cause. In a majority of threads (granted not all) that i have read through the expression that "because its my right" and much attitude and abrasiveness comes across. I'm not saying OC is not a right only that I think the cause could be brought across in a different light. From my own personal experience I can without a doubt in my mind tell you that you have a much better chance of changing someones mind and or beliefs if you can approach the conversation in a nonconfrontational way. Saying that "its my right" or something along those lines seems to put the other person on the defensive rather than open their eyes to a new belief. When I speak to customers ( I am an Assistant Service Manager at a new car dealership) and try to explain things to them in a clear almost dumbed down manner. This allows them to comprehend what it is that I am saying to them and not feel belittled by it.
As a side note I just want to say that I do beleive in OC and I do support it.

It is the way you say, "Because it is my right" that, from what I have seen and heard, causes a confrontation. A better phrase might be, "Because it's a right guaranteed by the Constitution for everyone in this country." Some of you who are better wordsmiths than I am might come up with an even better phrase.

But the bottom line is still the way you express yourself. If you come across as surly or with anger management problems, the other person is going to reflect that right back at you.

There are some folks out there, though, who are going to confront you no matter how nice and polite you try to be. All they see is, "My God, that fool has a (gasp) gun on his/her hip!!" What is funny is that the ones who say they are afraid of the gun have no problems confronting someone who is both larger and armed.

OC for older folks, such as myself, is an invaluable deterrent and I would give it up very reluctantly.

I think it is how people respond to the "My God, that fool has a (gasp) gun on his/her hip!!" that may cause some of the problem. While I totally understand that some people may freak out no matter how nice you may be to them but I think that is what should make you feel good about yourself at the end of the day. Being able to stay cool, calm and collected during a confrontation leaves nothing bad to be said about the person who is OC and while others may not be a part of the conversation typically things of that nature cause other people near by to take notice. After all is said and done, to all onlookers you look like a responsible person and the other if they choose to start yelling or anything of the sort look stupid. Small things like this could make or break conversation/arguement.

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"because its my right"

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Cold to the cause. My view! I'm never going to be 'cold to the cause.' My personal thoughts on this subject is that its only those who are ready, willing and prepared to give away their freedoms and willing to kiss butt, bown down, and pay homage to those who want to control our lives that are or have become cold to the cause!

" When I speak to customers ( I am an Assistant Service Manager at a new car dealership) and try to explain things to them in a clear almost dumbed down manner."

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. So you treat your customers like Wood Ducks?"

Sorry mate, but I wont fall for it?

Dont forget the enemy of freedom infiltrates every avenue available here, and on many boards such as this, the same professing to be champions in favour of armed self defence whilst working tirelessly behind the scenes white anting and destroying our rights and freedoms in the houses of parliment, the media, and in the homes where ever possible. It happened here again just recently. An alleged staunch sporting shooters advocate was bought off by some one in power and now works against us, publicly!

" and much attitude and abrasiveness comes across.'

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No more abrasive as someone telling me I cannot arm myself and defend myself or my family. People who tell me I cannot defend myself have so far never told me this without attitude without being abrasive?

Please Haz, would you kindly disarm your self and place yourself at the mercy of a complete stranger to defend you and yours?

After owning firearms for over 50 years, now, before I can buy a firearm, I must obtain a Permit To Acquire. The first permit has a mandatory 28 day delay before it is first issued. In some states (e.g. Queensland, Victoria, and New South Wales), this is waived for second and subsequent firearms of the same class. For each firearm a "Genuine Reason" must be given, relating to pest control, hunting, target shooting, or collecting. Self-defence is not accepted as a reason for issuing a licence. Also each firearm I own must be registered to me by serial number. How abrasive is that? I havent changed in the past 50 years? Tell me what has changed?

Lets be nice, have less attitude and be less abrasive to these people???

Gun control groups in Australia have very few active members but a high media profile. The main focus of these groups is on tightening firearm controls, reducing legal gun ownership in Australia. Active lobbying in Australia is conducted by two main groups: Gun Control Australia and the National Coalition for Gun Control (NCGC).

Gun Control Australia in its publications and website makes assertions such as:

Failure of Duty by the Gun Lobby
The Gun Lobby, the NRA and the SSAA have consistently failed to come up with an effective policy for keeping firearms away from criminals. In advocating a "Right to Bear Arms", resulting in decreased controls on firearms, the NRA has negligently failed to provide a mechanism for controlling the access to guns by criminals.

Just like governments, police and the anties have failed to keep firearms out of the hand of criminals, and in so doing fail to protect the very citizens they have dissarmed.
Police have no legal duty to protect individuals. Police have no legal liability when they fail to protect individuals, and Police have virtually no physical ability to protect individuals. Go and read the thread, "Who needs a gun in Australia," on this very board and see how inaffective government, police and the anties have been in making Australia a safer place! We could double the number of police in Australia and the odds are, if you're unable to defend yourself, they're just going take your description of your assailant at best, or draw a chalk outline around you at worst.

Why do I stand up and work for the cause? 'Because it is my God given right,' to defend myself, my family and my property, just as it is my God given right to feed my family, cloth my family and put a roof over their heads, as He expects me to.
"A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring." (Proverbs 25:26)

I know many law abiding sporting shooters down under who keep them to themselves. Never rocking the boat, never sending an e-mail to a politician and voicing their distain. They say it avoids a lot of unnecessary hysteria and is in keeping with the Australia ethos of not alarming the neighbours if at all possible. I say thats a lot of hog-wash for I read daily news headlines where people are terrified to go out not only at night but in many places, in broad daylight. If you guys in the USA stop fighting for your rights, and if you loose your right to own firearms for self defence, you will become slaves to criminals and to government. The anties, like those down under will NEVER stop whittling away at every right you still have untill they win. They want to control you, and the only way they can control you is to render you defenceless! I will never back down to the anties, because 'its my right' to be a free man. Who owns your life?

As far as the anties go they can K.M.A!

Cheers Haz.

Failure of Duty by the Gun Lobby
The Gun Lobby, the NRA and the SSAA have consistently failed to come up with an effective policy for keeping firearms away from criminals. In advocating a "Right to Bear Arms", resulting in decreased controls on firearms, the NRA has negligently failed to provide a mechanism for controlling the access to guns by criminals.

Just like governments, police and the anties have failed to keep firearms out of the hand of criminals, and in so doing fail to protect the very citizens they have dissarmed.

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This argument repeatedly gets rolled out by everybody who does not want someone else to own a gun. And yet their "answer" to the situation is to propose and impose even more laws that the criminals will ignore and violate For a reason unknown to logic :banghead: these folks cannot seem to understand :banghead: that, by definition, criminals are those people who refuse to obey the laws :banghead::cuss::banghead:.

Our job should be to ask them how the new law is going to make the criminals obey it any more than they obey all the other laws - and lather, rinse, repeat until the antis either give a logically sound answer or their heads explode from finally realizing the cognitive dissonance their proposal creates.

In the meantime, just to vent my frustration and exasperation at the antis, I'm going to start a campaign to impose the same kinds of restrictions on automobile purchase, ownership, safe storage and use as are currently onm the books about firearms. Nobody needs to own/use an automobile - they could take the bus, or ride a bike, or walk. Let's see if anybody notices that all I do is substitute the word automobile for the word firearm in all the existing laws.

stay safe.

skidmark said:

This argument repeatedly gets rolled out by everybody who does not want someone else to own a gun. And yet their "answer" to the situation is to propose and impose even more laws that the criminals will ignore and violate For a reason unknown to logic :banghead: these folks cannot seem to understand :banghead: that, by definition, criminals are those people who refuse to obey the laws :banghead::cuss::banghead:.

Our job should be to ask them how the new law is going to make the criminals obey it any more than they obey all the other laws - and lather, rinse, repeat until the antis either give a logically sound answer or their heads explode from finally realizing the cognitive dissonance their proposal creates.

In the meantime, just to vent my frustration and exasperation at the antis, I'm going to start a campaign to impose the same kinds of restrictions on automobile purchase, ownership, safe storage and use as are currently onm the books about firearms. Nobody needs to own/use an automobile - they could take the bus, or ride a bike, or walk. Let's see if anybody notices that all I do is substitute the word automobile for the word firearm in all the existing laws.

stay safe.

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Hay skidmark.

You know I have repeatedly said that to so many people several including politicians and yet it just falls on deaf ears. Every Christmas and Easter weekend holidays we have dozens of road deaths due to speed, drunk driving etc. The total to August 2010 was 1,400 deaths. Thats not counting serious injuries. Last time I checked there were about 3 million licenced drivers in Australia. Given our small population 1400 deaths per year is quite serious. Imagine the outcry if 1400 people were killed by firearms every year? Never hear a peep out of the anties regarding these deaths. Anyone can buy a car. No genuine reason to own one needed, no permits to aquire needed, no 28 day cooling of period? Loose your drivers licence for speeding drunk driving or causing an accident injuring someone one we can pay a fine, and get our licence back in a month or two. Cheers, Haz.

Haz, I think your missing what I'm tryin to get across here. I'm not saying to not carry or to somehow lose your right to self defence. All I am saying is I think by being genuine and holding ourselfs to a higher standard than those that try to repress those rights is what shows that we are just regular LAC. I am sorry but i don't understand your refrence to wood ducks. I am genuine to my customers and do my best to make sure they understand what work is being performed. I only listed my occupation as it shows that I commonly have to explain complex issuse with cars to people who have very very limited knowlage of cars. I feel this is relevent because it is similar in how I beleive we should handle those who don't know gun rights and the laws pertaining to them. You could refrence all the general statutes you would like but after the convo most people will lose the meggasge as soo much info has been said with little comprehension.
To reiterate, The point of my posting is in refrence to the attitudes shown and how that in itself could turn people off to listening and absorbing facts. Approach is everything brother.

sorry to dbl post but just needed to ad my thread is about just regular everyday on the street people Politicians are and will always be fair game lol.

smokeyburnout said:

After kicking back and reading many many postings on this website I think I have uncovered a bit of why more people seem cold to the cause. In a majority of threads (granted not all) that i have read through the expression that "because its my right" and much attitude and abrasiveness comes across. I'm not saying OC is not a right only that I think the cause could be brought across in a different light. From my own personal experience I can without a doubt in my mind tell you that you have a much better chance of changing someones mind and or beliefs if you can approach the conversation in a nonconfrontational way. Saying that "its my right" or something along those lines seems to put the other person on the defensive rather than open their eyes to a new belief. When I speak to customers ( I am an Assistant Service Manager at a new car dealership) and try to explain things to them in a clear almost dumbed down manner. This allows them to comprehend what it is that I am saying to them and not feel belittled by it.
As a side note I just want to say that I do beleive in OC and I do support it.

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Thank you for posting your insights and reflections on this matter. It has been interesting thus far to read the responses to your post.

I agree that tone and demeanor go a long ways in effective communication, regardless of the subject matter.

smokeyburnout said:

Haz, I think your missing what I'm tryin to get across here. I'm not saying to not carry or to somehow lose your right to self defence. All I am saying is I think by being genuine and holding ourselfs to a higher standard than those that try to repress those rights is what shows that we are just regular LAC. I am sorry but i don't understand your refrence to wood ducks. I am genuine to my customers and do my best to make sure they understand what work is being performed. I only listed my occupation as it shows that I commonly have to explain complex issuse with cars to people who have very very limited knowlage of cars. I feel this is relevent because it is similar in how I beleive we should handle those who don't know gun rights and the laws pertaining to them. You could refrence all the general statutes you would like but after the convo most people will lose the meggasge as soo much info has been said with little comprehension.
To reiterate, The point of my posting is in refrence to the attitudes shown and how that in itself could turn people off to listening and absorbing facts. Approach is everything brother.

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Hi smokeyburnout.

Sorry mate, and forgive me if my post came across as a personal attack. I certainly never meant that. A very close friend of mine is a sales manager of a very large international company and he told me whenever customers are refered to at their company get togethers, customers are refered to as 'wood ducks,' not the customer or the buying public. I asked him why this is so? He told me upper high management regards customers as dummies, ie. wood ducks, who believe everything they are told! Thats why they buy our crap! He's genuine and he said it, I believed him.

Mate, I cannot stand the tripe that comes out of the anties mouths, especially those who claim gun owners are hostile, rednecks, stupid, lovers of violence, killers of defenceless animals and all the other garbage they come up with. The lies they come up with here in my own country when ever a firearm is used by a criminal are unbelieveable. They without thinking immediately cry out and lobby for tighter gun control and often times they are heard and get their way. They lump every law abiding citizen in with murderes, rapists, car nappers, bank robbers, and the media give them unlimited time to spew their venom, even saying the criminals firearms, which are smuggled into the country by the container load are in fact stolen from law abiding gun owners?

Treat anties of any kind with velvet gloves? Never, I give them what they give me and more if at all possible. The ones I have met and had to deal with are nothing more than a pack of lying, cheating, irrisponsible blaggards who will stoop to every known trick in the book to have us dissarmed and then gain control over us. A pack of wild hyenas on the plains of Africa have more manners than some of them I have met. As much as I hate them and their attitude and life long desire to control me and others, I bet I dont hate them as much as they hate me and other gun owners?

Now if someone was genuine in their search for valid reasons why some people prefer to arm themselves and defend themselves rather than dial 999, or 000, down under, or Crime stoppers, when threatened with violence, threatened with rape, robbery, be thrown out of their car at gun or knife point and have their car stolen, and after dialing the emergency number if possible, and still alive, wait for ever for help to arrive, I will only be glad to oblige without attitude or abrasiveness.
Cheers, Haz.

Hi milproguy.

"I agree that tone and demeanor go a long ways in effective communication, regardless of the subject matter."

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I agree to a point, but when someone lies, cheats, invents incriminating stories and lumps me in with violent raping murdering criminals to dissarm me and tell me its for my own good so they can control me, then any effictive communication with them ceases!
Cheers Mate, Haz.

smokeyburnout said:

I think it is how people respond to the "My God, that fool has a (gasp) gun on his/her hip!!" that may cause some of the problem. While I totally understand that some people may freak out no matter how nice you may be to them but I think that is what should make you feel good about yourself at the end of the day. Being able to stay cool, calm and collected during a confrontation leaves nothing bad to be said about the person who is OC and while others may not be a part of the conversation typically things of that nature cause other people near by to take notice. After all is said and done, to all onlookers you look like a responsible person and the other if they choose to start yelling or anything of the sort look stupid. Small things like this could make or break conversation/arguement.

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This is exactly what happened to me one Saturday morning in August 2009 at a McDonald's. The aggressive person was escalating his rant as I remained calm. The way I look at such a situation is this. I am armed and therefore will be held to a higher degree of responsible behavior when confronted with such people. I prefer not to get in a ******* contest with people like this, especially when there is a firearm on my person.

I appreciate the insight, and report from "Down-Under" by HAZ.

The U.S. has a foreign-born pretender in the White House right now (no I will not recognize him as "President")
who would love to follow the Australian model.

I was watching some news video of the civil war in Lybia last night. It amazed me how the people of Lybia were able to put together such a well equiped and effective "rebel force" in only 6 months.

I seriously doubt that the Lybian people have a "Second Amendment" equivalent.

My hat is off to the Lybians for demonstrating to the world what the RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS is all about.... and I hope they will preserve it after the dust settles.

Thank you for the clairification on the "wood ducks" comment. I don't view my customers in that light and could never bring myself to lie to people everyday, thats why I work in the service department and not in sales lol.

Now im not saying to treat them with velvet gloves but more to hold ourselfs to a higher standard and allow them to show anyone within ears shot how much of a fool they are. For all we know they may have been denied the very right because they are a felon or have a mental condition and now would like everyone else to be hindered as much as they are.

Apparently you are dealing with an entirely different class of anti gun people. I can't say that I know where your coming from but I do sincerly hope that for you these issues are no where near as bad as you claim.

smokeyburnout said:

Thank you for the clairification on the "wood ducks" comment. I don't view my customers in that light and could never bring myself to lie to people everyday, thats why I work in the service department and not in sales lol.

Now im not saying to treat them with velvet gloves but more to hold ourselfs to a higher standard and allow them to show anyone within ears shot how much of a fool they are. For all we know they may have been denied the very right because they are a felon or have a mental condition and now would like everyone else to be hindered as much as they are.

Apparently you are dealing with an entirely different class of anti gun people. I can't say that I know where your coming from but I do sincerly hope that for you these issues are no where near as bad as you claim.

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Thanks smokyburnout.

Things are worse here, and getting worse by the day. I'ts going to be a long hard battle to restore the freedoms we had back even as late as 50's. Cheers haz.

I don't OC to make a political statement (don't feel that is really necessary in Virginia since firearms are so much a part of our history and culture) and I don't OC with an, "because it is my right" attitude. I actually do both modes of carry, but nearly always I OC. And I do this for what I believe to be good and valid reasons, which I owe to no one but will offer them here to help the OP.

I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees and while mobile, I can no longer run or fight as I was once capable of doing. This puts me in a more precarious position in the event of an extreme encounter. My openly carried sidearm serves as a sign, if you will, to those who may wish to do me harm that perhaps it is in their better interests to find another target. Is there a 100% chance this will always be the case? No, but then again, few things in life are so absolute. I would rather not be put in the situation where I have to fight a bit before I can get to my firearm (remember, knees) so my OC'd sidearm I feel helps me in this regard.

As for comments and remarks to those who have asked me in the past about my openly carried gun, I avoid what I consider to be smartass responses since they do no one any good, and stick with helpful and productive answers. I have had a few minor challenges but only one bad encounter in over four years of OC'ing (mentioned above) and have taken this approach with all of them. I would MUCH rather folks who see me carrying feel comfortable around me and perceive me as no threat to them. So I suppose one could call that political.... but I don't. I call it manners.

"As for comments and remarks to those who have asked me in the past about my openly carried gun, I avoid what I consider to be smartass responses since they do no one any good, and stick with helpful and productive answers. I have had a few minor challenges but only one bad encounter in over four years of OC'ing (mentioned above) and have taken this approach with all of them. I would MUCH rather folks who see me carrying feel comfortable around me and perceive me as no threat to them. So I suppose one could call that political.... but I don't. I call it manners."

This is basicly what I'm talking about. It just seems to me that quite a few people would rather resort to the smartass/defensive responces rather than show themselfs as the responsible and nonthreatning people we are. By reacting in an agressive way it adds fuel to the "crazy people carry guns" attitude. I totally agree that you should never be put in the situation where you need to have these convos but this is the real world and people have opinions.

SouthernBoy said:

As for comments and remarks to those who have asked me in the past about my openly carried gun, I avoid what I consider to be smartass responses since they do no one any good, and stick with helpful and productive answers. I have had a few minor challenges but only one bad encounter in over four years of OC'ing (mentioned above) and have taken this approach with all of them. I would MUCH rather folks who see me carrying feel comfortable around me and perceive me as no threat to them. So I suppose one could call that political.... but I don't. I call it manners.

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I too try to be friendly with anyone who asks about my OC gun, but when they begin to get a bit more forceful in their asking, I usually end it with "Look. Open Carry is a right, Conceal Carry is not. I would be more than happy to conceal my firearm in order to make you feel better, but I do not have the $600 at this time that such a permit requires. If you would like to donate money towards this, we can continue to talk like adults. If you do not, then we are done here. Please do not continue to shout or yell at me in order to cause a disturbance."

They charge $600 for the permit? Christ. I thought the $209.50 ct charges was excessive.

smokeyburnout said:

They charge $600 for the permit? Christ. I thought the $209.50 ct charges was excessive.

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I got my permit in 2009 and I think I paid right around $55.00 for it and had it in about a week and a half.

I agree with the point of this thread. Gun owners, and particularly OCers, are in the minority as far as the general population goes. I think we need people to see us in a positive light, whether they ever own a gun or not. Being polite in your daily life, with a gun or not, can take you far when working with people. After all, who controls your emotions, you or the other person? My grandfather used to say that you are only as big as the little thing that makes you mad. It's a lesson I am still learning. There are things that people should get mad about, but let's channel the energy to do something about the problem and not just rant and rave.

Just my .02 worth.

Haz. said:

Thanks smokyburnout.

Things are worse here, and getting worse by the day. I'ts going to be a long hard battle to restore the freedoms we had back even as late as 50's. Cheers haz.

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It's everywhere....the intent is to completely disarm the citenzery.... In WA, guns are the only thing we have left for self defense thanks to the federal and state constitution....but they are working to make everything else (arms) a crime.

This legislation was introduced in 2011....and defeated, but automatically goes on the upcoming legislative agenda and gets re-introduced, just in case we're all asleep.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2011-12/Pdf/Bills/House Bills/1006.pdf

The highpoint is that if passed, "Furtively carries with intent to conceal" (as in your pocket?)...any knife having a blade more than 3.5 inches" is now guilty of a gross misdemeanor..

Skulking around at McDonalds, furtively looking for a place to sit, the officer walks up and says "is that a three and a half inch knife in your pocket mister or are you just glad to see me?"