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Thread: VCDL - Operation Campus Safety

  1. #1
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    VCDL - Operation Campus Safety

    Hot off the Va-Alert press - No Guns? No Funds!


    VCDL protests are coming: "Operation Campus Safety" announced by Philip Van Cleave, president VCDL



    ************************************
    VCDL protests are coming: "Operation Campus Safety" announced
    ************************************

    THE PROBLEM - UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES ENDANGERING THE INNOCENT

    The Board of Directors of VCDL has decided that enough is enough when it comes to the safety of the students, faculty, staff, and guests at Virginia public universities and colleges. Higher-education "no gun" policies do not make the innocent any safer. Instead such policies enable people like Cho to wantonly massacre, rape, and rob.

    Those policies disarm students, faculty and staff not only on campus, but going to and from campus. ODU, for example, is not situated in the best part of town and unarmed students pay the price.

    What's even more egregious is that concealed handgun permit holders, who are at least 21 years old, have clean records, have had training, are not illegal drug users or habitual drunkards, and carry virtually everywhere else they go, are purposely left helpless. There simply is no excuse for that. Just one armed permit holder in one of those classrooms under attack at Virginia Tech on that fateful day in 2007 could have stopped Cho.

    [A JMU STUDENT, WHO IS ALSO A CHP HOLDER, SAVED HIS LIFE LAST WEEK JUST OFF THE JMU CAMPUS - SEE ITEM #2, BELOW]

    Just who exactly do those who live in the Ivory Towers think they are to dictate what your life or mine is worth? Where do they get the authority to do so? Gun laws are strictly controlled by the General Assembly and there is NO enabling legislation giving higher-ed the authority to have gun-control on campus. Too many of those in the Ivory Towers are so lost in the alternate world of academia, they become isolated from reality.

    The thought of being expelled from Virginia Tech, something that I'm sure the University considers right up there with the death penalty, didn't even slow Cho down from his dark mission. And after the massacre, the University completely missed the real-world lesson that was so painfully taught them. Instead they decided to double-down on a failed and dangerous policy that only works on a blackboard.

    The universities know that the Virginia Attorney General Cuccinelli has stated that they are not responsible for ensuring the safety of students (http://tinyurl.com/65vyx9w), yet those same universities demand that students nonetheless delegate their safety to the university and its police officers (who by the way have a Supreme Court ruling that says that THEY are not responsible for the safety of any one individual, only the public generally)! Nothing against campus police, but the same unfortunate reality applies to them as it does all other police officers - when seconds count between life and death, the police are only minutes away.

    Speaking of that, when Virginia Tech was under attack by Cho, guess where a contingency of police went immediately? You guessed it - to protect those in the Ivory Towers! Those in the Ivory Towers should not get any more protection than anyone else - after all, it is their dangerous policies of making people FEEL safe that only end up aiding someone like Cho in his mission of murder.

    A SOLUTION - VCDL WILL BE PROTESTING AT A SCHOOL NEAR YOU!

    If higher-education won't do the right thing on their own, then VCDL and gun owners statewide need to "nudge" them onto the right path.

    How do we do that?

    Simple. We hit them where it hurts - right in the wallet. With the economy in the dumps, higher-ed is probably not getting the level of donations they are used to and we plan on squeezing them even more.

    To that effect, VCDL is preparing a series of campus protests over the next few months. We are having signs, brochures, and stickers made as I write this. We will be on campus educating students and we will be reaching out to alumni to stop donations to the school until they change their policies, however long that takes.

    Those protests will be starting in a few weeks.

    ALUMNI AND PROSPECTIVE PARENTS - WE NEED SOME QUOTES FROM YOU!

    If you are an alumni of the following schools, or are considering sending your son or daughter to one of them, and don't mind your name being published in the pamphlets, email me (president@vcdl.org) a one or two sentence quote that we can use in the brochures that we will be handing out on campus:

    College of William & Mary

    Virginia Commonwealth University

    George Mason University

    Virginia Tech

    James Madison University

    Radford University


    Old Dominion University (added per PVC)

    University of Virginia (added per PVC)

    Include in the quote, which university or college you attended. Something like, "As an alumni of XYZ University, I cannot and will not support a school that mindlessly disarms students, faculty, staff, and guests with concealed handgun permits." Please use your own wording.

    I will be announcing each protest a week or so before it is held here on VA-ALERT so that we can get a good turnout at each one. We will need people holding signs, handing out brochures, and talking to those with questions. Someone from VCDL leadership will be interfacing with the press.

    In the meantime, spread the word far and near. When a university or college asks for money, tell them:

    NO GUNS? NO FUNDS!




    -------------------------------------------
    ************************************************** *************************
    VA-ALERT is a project of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    (VCDL). VCDL is an all-volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization
    dedicated to defending the human rights of all Virginians. The Right to
    Keep and Bear Arms is a fundamental human right.

    VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org [http://www.vcdl.org/]
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-10-2011 at 08:31 AM. Reason: added to list of Univ.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  2. #2
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Operation Campus Safety

    Item #2 from the above Va-Alert show why such changes are needed in Va. colleges.

    JMU student/CHP holder attacked by two robbers, shoots one and the other surrenders
    ************************************

    A JMU student shot one of two men attempting to rob him, ending the robbery and putting one criminal in the hospital and the other in jail. It's a small world: Jaime Radtke, who is a neighbor running for the U.S. Senate, told me she knows the student and his family. Apparently the JMU student used a Ruger LCP in .380 ACP to shoot the gun-brandishing criminal. The shot hit the criminal in the leg and the guy folded like a deck of cards. The student was actually surprised that a leg shot from a .380 had so totally incapacitated the bad guy. What he found out later was that the bullet had hit the bad guy in the thigh, ricocheted off the thigh bone and went through both of his testicles! As all of the now wincing male readers of this alert will testify: it was lights out, game over at that point.

    The police told the JMU student that both of his assailants were bad news and that it was good that he was armed.

    Jaime told me that apparently both bad guys had been on the JMU campus earlier that day (so much for that gun-free zone thing). If the student had been on campus when this dangerous situation had arose, he either might have been murdered if unarmed, or expelled for having the audacity to defend himself.

    University gun bans cannot be allowed to stand.

    From WHSV.com: http://tinyurl.com/3j7mg22

    Harrisonburg Police Make Arrest in Weekend Shooting Incident

    Police have arrested a male involved with a shooting in Harrisonburg over the weekend.

    The Harrisonburg Police Department arrested O'Rondae Jones, 19, of Manassas, Va. Jones has been charged with two counts of brandishing a firearm.

    Police report that around 12:30 a.m. Saturday, Jones brandished a gun toward a male victim in the 1400 block of Devon Lane. He was accompanied by George Escobar, 19, of Falls Church,

    The victim shot Jones in the upper leg. Jones was taken to Rockingham Memorial Hospital and later transferred to the University of Virginia Medical Center. He has since been released.

    Police say the investigation reveals the shooting was made in self-defense and the victim will not face charges.

    Jones is currently being held at the Albemarle-Charlottesville Regional Jail.

    Escobar was charged with two counts of giving false identification to law enforcement, unlawful use or injury to telephone lines and obstructing justice. He also had outstanding warrants from Falls Church.

    VCDL web page: http://www.vcdl.org [http://www.vcdl.org/]
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  3. #3
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    ODU, too

    Add ODU to the list of universities that can expect a visit from VCDL.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    The thing that gets me so frustrated is that these academics and administrators do not see the utter failure of logic in their actions, and that academics (if not also administrators) are supposed to be teaching logic - or at least using it in their teachings.

    As we all know, the basic definition of a criminal is one who does not obey the law. Thus, thinking up and passing ever-increasingly more restrictive laws/regulations/rules/policies that have ever-increasingly harsh penalties will never have any effect on the criminals. You might as well pass a law/regulation/rule/policy saying that not obeying the law is against the law. Oh, wait! They did that, didn't they? Way back when this whole "But the criminals are not obeying the laws!" thing first came to notice?

    But then I stop and and remember that gun control is not about guns at all. It is all about control.

    Which is why I think this campaign is doomed to failure, as much as the desired outcome is needed. This campaign is looking at the wrong issue. Even ignoring the P4P aspect of CHPs only for campus carry, almost all college students are at least 18 years old - legal adults. That college/university administrators want to impose control over these adults strongly indicates that the administrators view them as less-than-adults and are tryng to impose rules in loco parentis when the courts have steadfastly held that they do not have the authority to do so.

    How long did it take the State of Maryland to finally figure out that their ballistic fingerprinting system did not work, did not contribute to the solving of one crime, and was costing them millions of dollars that they could be spending elsewhere? The actual answer to that question is not important - what is important is that the program died because it was opposed as being an example of the classic definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again while hoping that you will eventually get a different outcome.

    As much as I support the goal of this campaign, I see the direction it is headed in as pretty much doomed to failure because 1) the number of people who want the outcome is extremely small compared to the total population it addresses (students/faculty/staff); 2) The "It's my right" argument has always sounded more like whining than anything else, even though fighting against the suppression of rights is always a good and proper action. There are IMHO just better ways to fight that fight; 3) Unless you detatch faculty/staff/students and make this about visitors to the campus, this is not our fight. SCCC should be the ones pushing for the rights of faculty/staff/students and those of us who are not directly tied to the campus should be supporting them, not trying to lead them; and 4) most importantly this is IMHO using the wrong arguments if it continues with "If there was just one CHP-holder there with a gun" and similar arguments. It is not about how a CHP holder could have saved the day - it is about how these laws/regulations/rules/policies totally and utterly fail to stop anyone who gets it into their head to violate them. Until we get folks to understand that point I do not believe any headway will be made in getting these laws/regulations/rules/policies changed, let alone repealed.

    Now if you get alumni and visitors to the colleges/universities to withhold their contributions and support because the colleges/universities are adhereing to a path of insanity, then I think you might begin to see not only support but favorable results.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  5. #5
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCDL President View Post
    Add ODU to the list of universities that can expect a visit from VCDL.
    Amended/edited the OP to show that.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by VCDL President View Post
    Add ODU to the list of universities that can expect a visit from VCDL.
    Philip:

    I saw this AFTER I sent you that email this morning.

    The rest holds true. I have taught (and am still technically on the rolls as an Adjunct) at ODU. I cannot spearhead such an operation, but I have equipment (P.A.) that is yours if you need it and I will certainly attend in support and solidarity if I am able.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Even ignoring the P4P aspect of CHPs only for campus carry,
    Not the least of which being that the vast majority of underclassmen are UNDER 21 and a campus carry "solution" which would allow students (and faculty, presumably) to CONCEAL CARRY would only benefit a small portion of the student body.

    A VERY SMALL PORTION.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Not the least of which being that the vast majority of underclassmen are UNDER 21 and a campus carry "solution" which would allow students (and faculty, presumably) to CONCEAL CARRY would only benefit a small portion of the student body.

    A VERY SMALL PORTION.
    This approach does nothing but bolster the concept that the average person cannot be trusted possessing or carrying arms unless they have some sort of approval by the state. Do I support the concept that all parties should be able to protect their own life while on campus? YES because all innocent human life is precious! This attempts to show that the only lives worth protecting are those that pay for privileges and are upper classmen.

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Not the least of which being that the vast majority of underclassmen are UNDER 21 and a campus carry "solution" which would allow students (and faculty, presumably) to CONCEAL CARRY would only benefit a small portion of the student body.

    A VERY SMALL PORTION.
    with all due respect to WYLDE007 and SKIDMARK. so what if only a few would be legally able to carry. it would have only took one to stop Cho or Hamilton. the benefit is not of the few that want their personal defense, but of the vast majority that might be saved directly and the masses that would have their birth right preserved.

    remember only small percentage of Americans wanted independence from England. and it was a very small percentage of blacks (all ready a minority of the whole) that wanted equality under the law. they did not just want benefits for themselves, but they wanted them for all.

    i really don't have anything to gain personally from changing the policy of the schools. but, the fact that my fellow citizens are denied their birth right is very disconcerting to me. i do not give any money to the collages, so none to withhold and i don't have any influence over any alumni either. but i can be a squeaky wheel and if you notice that means a lot to a entity that is worried about publicity. even if we just convince a few people then the snowball will roll
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  10. #10
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    with all due respect to WYLDE007 and SKIDMARK. so what if only a few would be legally able to carry. it would have only took one to stop Cho or Hamilton.
    One. Exactly one.

    One upperclassman.

    I would be willing to briefly entertain your argument if you could provide me with the number of eligible students (21 and over) who were killed or wounded who were of legal permit age.

    I suppose you could argue that the professor who placed himself between Cho and the students could be counted, so... one.

    Privilege Carry or not, campus POLICY disarms the students who would take to their own defense.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  11. #11
    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    1. I support this action. However,

    2. P4P needs to stop. I understand that "It's a start" but I'm afraid it is also the end, at least for along time.

    3. The argument that not knowing who has a gun works in society but not at a University. A shooter only has to target '100 series' classes to get a high body count. My Chem 141 at UVa had a few hundred students, all under the age of 21. That only the leaves the Professor who could legally carry, so he'd be the first to go. After that it would be fish in a barrel.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    1. I support this action. However,

    2. P4P needs to stop. I understand that "It's a start" but I'm afraid it is also the end, at least for along time.

    3. The argument that not knowing who has a gun works in society but not at a University. A shooter only has to target '100 series' classes to get a high body count. My Chem 141 at UVa had a few hundred students, all under the age of 21. That only the leaves the Professor who could legally carry, so he'd be the first to go. After that it would be fish in a barrel.
    That ignores adult students in hallways and other classrooms, et cetera, some of which are ex-military and would possibly run towards the sound of gunfire. To borrow a phrase, "If it only Saves One Child" - this being more apropos to our cause than the anti's who would by their actions give them all up.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    with all due respect to WYLDE007 and SKIDMARK. so what if only a few would be legally able to carry. it would have only took one to stop Cho or Hamilton. the benefit is not of the few that want their personal defense, but of the vast majority that might be saved directly and the masses that would have their birth right preserved.

    remember only small percentage of Americans wanted independence from England. and it was a very small percentage of blacks (all ready a minority of the whole) that wanted equality under the law. they did not just want benefits for themselves, but they wanted them for all.

    i really don't have anything to gain personally from changing the policy of the schools. but, the fact that my fellow citizens are denied their birth right is very disconcerting to me. i do not give any money to the collages, so none to withhold and i don't have any influence over any alumni either. but i can be a squeaky wheel and if you notice that means a lot to a entity that is worried about publicity. even if we just convince a few people then the snowball will roll
    BUT THIS IS NOT THE POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Please excuse the yelling, but I am upset and needed to vent. I'm better now, thanks.

    The laws and rules and regulations and policies are controlling what otherwise is a legal activity, and those laws and rules and regulations and policies have not done one thing to save the life of a student, or faculty member, or staff person at any college or university. And those are the points, with the latter being the most important one.

    We can sit at our keyboards all day and theorize that just one person with a legally possessed handgun on the VT campus might have saved 32 lives and prevented many others from being wounded - if they had been in the right place at the right time with the right frame of mind and the right determination and the right skills and the right ability to do the right thing with their gun and take out Cho right after he started his rampage. But that's all speculation.

    The point is that the existing laws and rules and regulations and policies do nothing to make the college/university campuses safer, and everything to prevent an otherwise lawfully armed citizen from defending themself against an attacker who has already violated the laws, rules, regulations and policies and who is bent on killing them. The existing laws and rules and regulations and policies do not work, so the proposed solution is to make even more laws and rules and regulations and policies with even more draconian penalties so that maybe at some point the criminals will be so frightened of the possible consequences of getting caught they will not violate that law or rule or regulation or policy and we will all be safe and live happily ever after.

    Rather than waiting for that magical moment, which I believe is scheduled to occur right after pigs fly, I'd like to see the laws and rules and regulations and policies attacked and scrapped because they do not work. We already know that most folks do not know or care (either or both) about rights that they are not busy exercising, and that too many people adctually buy the GUNZ ARE BAD line without actually thinking about it - just like they do not bother to realize that CARZ ARE BADDER THAN GUNZ but they don't hate cars because they have one and know that their car has never hurt anyone. So if we can't get them to stop thinking they hate guns then maybe the better or more effective or more efficient (take your pick of any or all choices) tactic is to get them to see that the current way of dealing with the subject is just not working and has no chance of ever working.

    It's not how WE see the situation and the solution but how all the rest of the people, who hardly if ever think about it, see the problem and then a solution for it. THEY are the ones we must move from one side of the issue to the other, and we are not going to be very effective in converting them into raging gun rights supporters but we just might convert them into seeing/understanding that the current "solution" not only isn't working but never will have a chance of working. Then, once we get them to that point we can go to the next one which is that since the criminals are not going to obey the laws because that's what criminals do then maybe we better figure out a way that allows each and every one of us law abiding citizens to protect ourself against the criminals. We've already beaten their "arguments" about blood in the streets if concealed carry was allowed, or if concealed carry where alchohol iss served was allowed. We should be able to beat their "blood on the campus" argument without insulting the 18-20 year olds while we do it.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    That ignores adult students in hallways and other classrooms, et cetera, some of which are ex-military and would possibly run towards the sound of gunfire. To borrow a phrase, "If it only Saves One Child" - this being more apropos to our cause than the anti's who would by their actions give them all up.
    When did we switch gears and start advocating that CHP holders (or anyone else) become the cavalry and run to the sound of the guns to save everybody else?

    Yes, some of those who carry might be altruistic enough to leave their place of safety and go to the rescue, but your argument requires someone to do that.

    The existing laws and rules and regulations and policies do not stop the criminals from breaking the laws and rules and regulations and policies and bring their guns where they are currently forbidden to bring them. There are not enough campus police to station one in every building let alone every hallway let alone every classroom. And law abiding citizens between the ages of 18 and 20 should have as much chance of defending themself against lethal force as someone who has passed their 21st birthday instead of hoping for an altruistic hero to come and save the day and their under-some-arbitrary-age life.

    When push comes to shove you may be willing to trust that your friends, let alone someone who does not know you, will decide to save you rather than themselves or their family/loved ones, but I'd rather not have to take that gamble. And I won't ask someone who is otherwise lawfully able to have the means of defending themself take that gamble, just as I will not allow anyone to force that responsibility onto my shoulders. I'm not a cop and I don't carry to save the rest of the world. Depending on the circumstances I might decide to intervene on behalf of someone else, but don't bet on it happening most of the trime let alone all of the time.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  15. #15
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    And law abiding citizens between the ages of 18 and 20 should have as much chance of defending themselves against lethal force as someone who has passed their 21st birthday instead of hoping for an altruistic hero to come and save the day and their under-some-arbitrary-age life.
    ^^^ One thousand times this!
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    When did we switch gears and start advocating that CHP holders (or anyone else) become the cavalry and run to the sound of the guns to save everybody else?

    Yes, some of those who carry might be altruistic enough to leave their place of safety and go to the rescue, but your argument requires someone to do that.

    --snipped--
    Hardly was "advocating" - was responding to another poster's comment that no one of legal age would be present.

    Surely being a good witness and/or not getting involved fits many people's criteria, but it has happened (going to the sound of gunfire) wherein armed people helped their fellow man in distress.

    Was not arguing, was presenting a thought and there was/is no hint of "requiring" anything. What I have always supported is "having the choice" of whether to carry or not, whether to respond or not, whether to have some ability to defend available. Right now they do not have that choice realistically.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    One. Exactly one.

    One upperclassman.

    I would be willing to briefly entertain your argument if you could provide me with the number of eligible students (21 and over) who were killed or wounded who were of legal permit age.

    I suppose you could argue that the professor who placed himself between Cho and the students could be counted, so... one.

    Privilege Carry or not, campus POLICY disarms the students who would take to their own defense.
    Still don't understand what your point is. the straw argument you are making does not make sense. there are lots of people on school campuses that qualify for legal carry. Odighizuwa was 43 and Half of his victims were over 21. he was stopped by students that had to go to their cars and get their firearms. BTW, they were of legal age to carry. if you insist on citing the VT shooting, nineteen of the victims were from 21 to 74 years of aged

    keep in mind that a GFZ is just a fish barrel to these crazies. There might be a chance that they pick places where there is no chance of people defending themselves and others. one argument for this is, you don't see them targeting gun shows. even though by policy, people at the gun shows are unarmed

    i think we might be on the same side, maybe we are misunderstanding ea. other.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    One. Exactly one.

    One upperclassman.

    I would be willing to briefly entertain your argument if you could provide me with the number of eligible students (21 and over) who were killed or wounded who were of legal permit age.

    I suppose you could argue that the professor who placed himself between Cho and the students could be counted, so... one.

    Privilege Carry or not, campus POLICY disarms the students who would take to their own defense.
    Take a look and make a count for yourself - considerably more were of age than not.
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    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-10-2011 at 12:44 PM. Reason: word use
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  19. #19
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    I for one, am all for helping my fellow citizens defend their birth rights, and to protest the discrimination they face, when trying to educate themselves.
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  20. #20
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    I will support this campaign simply because I would like to be able to carry on campus unhindered. Students should have the same right. Since when did a college campus become a place where self-defense is not needed? I must have missed that memo...
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    I will support this campaign simply because I would like to be able to carry on campus unhindered. Students should have the same right. Since when did a college campus become a place where self-defense is not needed? I must have missed that memo...
    At last! Enlightened self interest. And I say that as a positive.

    And to repeat, it's not the goal I disagree with, just the method of reaching it.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  22. #22
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Skid is right. We don't need to make any more arguments for allowing campus carry. They've already been made, and we're the only ones that agree with them (because we're the choir).

    We need a proponent, someone who can counter the anti's "I was there, and a gun wouldn't have helped" stance with an equally compelling "Had it not been for my gun, I might be dead now" statement. We have that in the recent GMU student-involved incident.

    The news article about the GMU student's self defense act didn't make any reference to his GMU status. He was just another LAC who acted out of necessity to defend himself. That he is a GMU student who was perhaps only feet from that GFZ that is his campus is significant because people like him are assumed to be defenseless prey by the local thug element because of the school policy.

    Staging protests now, in the shadows of the Wall St protests, would just be seen as another group of anarchists who don't want to play by society's rules.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    ....

    We need a proponent, someone who can counter the anti's "I was there, and a gun wouldn't have helped" stance with an equally compelling "Had it not been for my gun, I might be dead now" statement. We have that in the recent GMU student-involved incident.

    Colin Goddard's statement that "a gun wouldn't have helped" is just as much speculation as the ones that the presence of a lawfully armed individual being there would "help". Colin is certainly not a firearms expert, nor is he a self defense expert. And he certainly is not an expert in close combat when starting behind the action/reaction curve.

    But to address your suggestion directly - the NRA collects and publishes accounts of exactly what you are asking for. They do it on line and in one of their monthly publications. What we are going to have to counter is the antis nit-picking that the incidents we cite don't count because they did not happen on a university/college campus -- and we know that argument is BS but they are going to trot it out until we make it fall over dead.


    The news article about the GMU student's self defense act didn't make any reference to his GMU status. He was just another LAC who acted out of necessity to defend himself. That he is a GMU student who was perhaps only feet from that GFZ that is his campus is significant because people like him are assumed to be defenseless prey by the local thug element because of the school policy.

    Unless you can document that the incident occurred mere inches off the campus, speculating on how close he was or that he was targetted because of his GMU student status is just more of the same type of specious arguments that the antis engage in. The point I'd stress is that he was lawfully armed and managed to defeat his armed assailants in spite of the fact that he started behind the action/reaction loop. I would not go for the "there but for my handgun" argument if for no other reason than there is a good chance the armed robbers lacked the resolve to actually shoot as evidenced by the fact that they did not shoot when this person went for his gun.

    Staging protests now, in the shadows of the Wall St protests, would just be seen as another group of anarchists who don't want to play by society's rules.
    I admit I had not considered this when I suggested a different approach. It might have some merit, but it all depends on how the campaign were to be carried out. Crowds with signs chanting slogans might not get favorable attention. There are other ways to get attention, as all good community organizers know.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  24. #24
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    Still don't understand what your point is. the straw argument you are making does not make sense.
    I am not making an argument. I am explaining why I am right.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  25. #25
    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    Staging protests now, in the shadows of the Wall St protests, would just be seen as another group of anarchists who don't want to play by society's rules.
    Anarchists don't mind playing by society's rules.

    It is GOVERNMENT'S RULES they abhor.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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