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Thread: What do you make of the opinion of the prominent attorney that DEFENDS gun owners?

  1. #1
    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
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    What do you make of the opinion of the prominent attorney that DEFENDS gun owners?

    I would agree with him only of a "force of law" was passed on "no guns" signs. In Florida felonies are agressively prosecuted. I know this is old news, but OC will come up again. There are very few signs now left over from the 1987 "shall issue" sheeple scare. I would hate to see them pop up again with a force of law addition. This lawyer is VERY good and on the side of gun owners. OPINIONS?

    Gun Expert opposes 'Open Carry' In Florida
    Seymour Gutmacher .... NRA and gun attorney

    Basically this gun expert says "Open carry is not necessary, and lets stop the bill from passing"

    There is a strong effort in the Florida Legislature, with a heavy push from the NRA, to pass an "open carry" of firearms bill for holders of the Florida Concealed Weapons Permit. Some proponents say this is necessary to prevent the arrest of CWP holders who may inadvertently, or accidentally expose their firearm. That is a misconception, and is not the law. Others feel it will make defensive use of a firearm safer and easier. That is debatable.


    However, the vast majority of Florida citizens, including those within the firearms industry, are in opposition. Why? First, is the obvious fact that the Concealed Weapons Program has worked so well, and the laws in Florida are so firmly established, that most people wonder why we need to "fix" it with something else. Second, is the obvious fact that open carry is likely to offend many, and will likely lead to a substantial backlash by businesses who, in an effort to prevent open carry in their establishments, will take steps to ban all firearms and weapons, even those that are concealed.

    Many of the states that allow "open carry" have laws that make it a crime to enter a store or business that has signs posted that forbid weapons on their premises. I personally predict Florida will pass such a law within two years if "open carry" is passed. This would be a felony in Florida because trespass with a firearm is considered the crime of "armed trespassing". It would also result in a marked reduction and effectiveness of the concealed weapons permit, because it will lead to significant restrictions in where you can currently carry. I seriously doubt that places like major grocery chains, banks, malls, restaurants, or medical facilities will welcome open carry, and will therefore take steps to prevent it. A sign that says "No firearms or weapons" will apply to both open and concealed carry if backed by a statute that prevents entry in such posted areas.

    However, it is true, that it makes no sense to prevent "open carry" at places where the owner or proprietor has no objection. Likewise, if the Legislature wishes to clarify existing law that inadvertent or momentary exposure is not a crime, then the remedy is to have language stating that persons with a valid Concealed Weapons Permit "shall not be in violation of the provisions of s.790.053 (ie: prohibition against open carry) where a concealed firearm or weapon becomes momentarily or inadvertently exposed, or where the person has the permission of the person or entity on whose property he or she may be."


    Florida’s Concealed Weapons Program works. Let’s not trash a system that we already have that works perfectly in favor of something so many oppose. If we want to make it better add the language I have suggested. Either that, or just leave it alone.

    Jon H. Gutmacher is an atttorney, NRA crtified instructor and author of "Florida Firearms: Law, Use & Ownership"

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    His writing is filled with 'this is what the only ones will do.'

    You can say that about any reclamation of a Right. Lots of people, especially neo-americans, hate rights and freedom of any kind.

    There very well may be a backlash. So? Those involved in the backlash only expose their own hatred for Liberty and common-sense. Let them put their anti-american sentiments on parade for all to see.
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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    uh, this is a little late. Open Carry died in Florida. I doubt we will see another bill for a while.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Regular Member mach1chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    uh, this is a little late. Open Carry died in Florida. I doubt we will see another bill for a while.
    Senator Evers and I have spoken and discussed about it and the problem is that he feels that passing another bill for 2012 will be nothing but a waste of time. He told me that he does not have the support needed to pass another open carry bill, and he will be waiting until the next election cycle to work with new senators. Senator Evers said "Expect to see another open carry bill for the fall of 2013" so its our job to try and vote in the right people during the election. Open carry in Florida is soon to happen.
    False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Given the fact that Mr. Gutmacher makes a living defending those who may be open carrying unlawfully, is it a stretch to think his opinion is somewhat slanted?
    Rich
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    Regular Member ADulay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Given the fact that Mr. Gutmacher makes a living defending those who may be open carrying unlawfully, is it a stretch to think his opinion is somewhat slanted?
    I was just about to say the same thing but you beat me to it!

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  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mach1chris View Post
    Senator Evers and I have spoken and discussed about it and the problem is that he feels that passing another bill for 2012 will be nothing but a waste of time. He told me that he does not have the support needed to pass another open carry bill, and he will be waiting until the next election cycle to work with new senators. Senator Evers said "Expect to see another open carry bill for the fall of 2013" so its our job to try and vote in the right people during the election. Open carry in Florida is soon to happen.
    So instead of trying again he wants to wait till the next cycle? Sure, there is the opportunity to have more pro-america people...there is equally the same opportunity to get a bunch of antis in there. Ha, so why try this year? Let's just keep on putting it off! Whatever, I'll be out of Florida in 3 years. Only because I'm so pro-gun/constitution/freedom - I'll probably get orders to commifornia or even worse, overseas...
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Many of the states that allow "open carry" have laws that make it a crime to enter a store or business that has signs posted that forbid weapons on their premises. I personally predict Florida will pass such a law within two years if "open carry" is passed. This would be a felony in Florida because trespass with a firearm is considered the crime of "armed trespassing". It would also result in a marked reduction and effectiveness of the concealed weapons permit, because it will lead to significant restrictions in where you can currently carry. I seriously doubt that places like major grocery chains, banks, malls, restaurants, or medical facilities will welcome open carry, and will therefore take steps to prevent it. A sign that says "No firearms or weapons" will apply to both open and concealed carry if backed by a statute that prevents entry in such posted areas
    Some states do, some states don't. Does that qualify as "many?" Here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (we're not a "state" but have statehood status), it's not against the law to enter a place with a "No Guns" sign. Actually, such signs are few and far between (and Open Carry is legal). Of course, the proprietor of such an establishment can ask a person to leave, and if they don't they can be prosecuted for Defiant Trespass, but the carrying of a firearm adds nothing, really, to the seriousness of the offense. Carry in a bank? Legal. In a bar? Legal. In a church? Legal. In a hospital? Legal. In a polling place at election time (as long as it's not in a K-12 school)? Legal. Supermarket? Legal.

    I think it's a learning curve that Florida will have to go through. Only Florida exceeds Pennsylvania in carry licenses, but Pennsylvania has a higher percentage of Pennsylvanians licensed than Florida has Floridians licensed.

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    So instead of trying again he wants to wait till the next cycle? Sure, there is the opportunity to have more pro-america people...there is equally the same opportunity to get a bunch of antis in there. Ha, so why try this year? Let's just keep on putting it off! Whatever, I'll be out of Florida in 3 years. Only because I'm so pro-gun/constitution/freedom - I'll probably get orders to commifornia or even worse, overseas...
    Last year the Senate President, Sen. Haridopolos, stated that whatever version of the bill left the House floor would be presented to the Senate floor without resending it to the committee. The logic was the the original SB 234 with open carry intact had already passed through the Senate committees, and wasn't amended by Senator Bogdanoff until it hit the Senate floor.

    The House version passed its committees and then sat for weeks waiting for the Senate version to pass through committee. It was tabled in favor of the Senate Bogdanoff amended version, which gutted open carry. On the morning of the House vote, Rep. Abruzzo, a Democrat, submitted an amendment which would have restored the bill to its original open carry version. However, the Speaker of the House, Rep. Dean Cannon, refused to allow the Abruzzo amended bill version to be called for a vote. The reason was to protect RINO representatives who didn't want to go on record as voting against a gun bill, thus maintaining their pro-2A appearance, but didn't want to vote for open carry either. Rep. Abruzzo was pressured by Rep. Cannon to withdraw his amendment, and the open carry gutted version was voted on and passed.

    However, Rep. Cannon's term as speaker is up after the 2012 session, and he will be replaced by Rep. Weatherford, who is notably pro-2A. Sen. Evers' analysis is correct. An open carry bill would not be passed in the upcoming session, but very well may stand a chance in the 2013 session.
    Last edited by Rich7553; 10-17-2011 at 03:16 PM.
    Rich
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Others feel it will make defensive use of a firearm safer and easier. That is debatable.
    Drawing from concealment is more difficult & takes longer than drawing from non-concealment*.
    How can that be argued?
    *(All else being equal - same person, same skills, same conditions other than OC v cc.)

    A more important issue is that OC prevents crime, while cc only allows reaction to crime one it's started. (And, yes, some deterrent effect if 'enough' citizens are armed so that criminals think they're likely to run into problems. But if I'm armed, they know they're likely to run into problems if they attack me. That's all I want.)

    The most important issue is that carry is a right. With only cc being legal, and that requiring gov't permission, the people have lost their right to keep & bear arms. If unlicensed OC were legal there would still exist an uninfringed right.

    the vast majority of Florida citizens, including those within the firearms industry, are in opposition.
    Who cares what the majority thinks?
    My rights, my safety, are not up for public vote.
    Unless he can provide results from independently-done, unbiased polls I tend to believe he's only stating his opinion.

    the Concealed Weapons Program has worked so well, and the laws in Florida are so firmly established, that most people wonder why we need to "fix" it with something else.
    The program does not work well. See above, about infringing rights.

    it will lead to significant restrictions in where you can currently carry. I seriously doubt that places like major grocery chains, banks, malls, restaurants, or medical facilities will welcome open carry, and will therefore take steps to prevent it.
    So seeing people exercising their rights will put their knickers in a twist,
    but people hiding their tools is OK?

    FWIW, the anti's have been using the opposite argument up here to try to prevent us getting or using cc.

    And if he'd look at other states, he'd see that his prediction is wrong.
    Here in WI, OC is currently the only legal way for most citizens to carry.
    There are very very few places that prohibit lawfully-armed customers, & some have gone out of their way to extend a welcome. I know of several that allow employees to carry.

    With the cc law passing, some have decided to waive their immunity from liability by posting "no (legal) guns" signs. I predict those will come down fairly quickly, as they lose business &/or get robbed.
    [One Milwaukee-area jeweler who made a stink about posting lost business very quickly. He didn't seem to understand that we won't just leave our pistols in the car & spend money there anyway.]
    Last edited by MKEgal; 10-11-2011 at 12:53 AM.
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    Regular Member mach1chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Last year the Senate President, Sen. Haridopolos, stated that whatever version of the bill left the House floor would be presented to the Senate floor without resending it to the committee. The logic was the the original SB 234 with open carry intact had already passed through the Senate committees, and wasn't amended by Senator Bogdanoff until it hit the Senate floor.

    The House version passed its committees and then sat for weeks waiting for the Senate version to pass through committee. It tabled in favor of the Senate Bogdanoff Amended version, which gutted open carry. On the morning of the House vote, Rep. Abruzzo, a Democrat, submitted an amendment which would have restored the bill to its original open carry version. However, the Speaker of the House, Rep. Dean Cannon, refused to allow the Abruzzo amended bill version to be called for a vote. The reason was to protect RINO representatives who didn't want to go on record as voting against a gun bill, thus maintaining their pro-2A appearance, but didn't want to vote for open carry either. Rep. Abruzzo was pressured by Rep. Cannon to withdraw his amendment, and the open carry gutted version was voted on and passed.

    However, Rep. Cannon's term as speaker is up after the 2012 session, and he will be replaced by Rep. Weatherford, who is notably pro-2A. Sen. Evers' analysis is correct. An open carry bill would not be passed in the upcoming session, but very well may stand a chance in the 2013 session.
    Thank you Rich for clarifying that for me. Odds are that if there is another bill passed for 2013 it will pass.
    False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member mach1chris's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    So instead of trying again he wants to wait till the next cycle? Sure, there is the opportunity to have more pro-america people...there is equally the same opportunity to get a bunch of antis in there. Ha, so why try this year? Let's just keep on putting it off! Whatever, I'll be out of Florida in 3 years. Only because I'm so pro-gun/constitution/freedom - I'll probably get orders to commifornia or even worse, overseas...
    I think that you moving to another state only because you want to exercise a right is a little extreme. Do what you want but that won't help Florida with open carry.
    False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mach1chris View Post
    I think that you moving to another state only because you want to exercise a right is a little extreme. Do what you want but that won't help Florida with open carry.
    Sounds to me like Schlitz will be moving per military orders, not of his own volition.
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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    OC is impossible in Fl as its own bill with the new composition of the CJ committee. This just needs to get done while we still have a pro OC governor. 2013 and 2014. Outside Airstrip One (aka California) "gun control" is dying. Ok will have OC next year, and it looks like all gun laws will literally be eradicated in New Hampshire. Fl is pretty different from NH, but this national trend bodes well for our rights here.
    Last edited by 77zach; 10-11-2011 at 09:11 PM.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

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    Regular Member mach1chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    OC is impossible in Fl as its own bill with the new composition of the CJ committee. This just needs to get done while we still have a pro OC governor. 2013 and 2014. Outside Airstrip One (aka California) "gun control" is dying. Ok will have OC next year, and it looks like all gun laws will literally be eradicated in New Hampshire. Fl is pretty different from NH, but this national trend bodes well for our rights here.
    Im sorry Zach but your saying that gun control is dying right? In what sense are you saying gun control is dying?...
    False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member 77zach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mach1chris View Post
    Im sorry Zach but your saying that gun control is dying right? In what sense are you saying gun control is dying?...
    Outside of California, gun laws are being dismantled nation wide.
    “If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race? Or do they believe that they themselves are made of a finer clay than the rest of mankind? ” -Bastiat

    I don't "need" to openly carry a handgun or own an "assault weapon" any more than Rosa Parks needed a seat on the bus.

  17. #17
    Regular Member mach1chris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77zach View Post
    Outside of California, gun laws are being dismantled nation wide.
    I take it that you think thats a good thing right?...
    False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Thomas Jefferson

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Last year the Senate President, Sen. Haridopolos, stated that whatever version of the bill left the House floor would be presented to the Senate floor without resending it to the committee. The logic was the the original SB 234 with open carry intact had already passed through the Senate committees, and wasn't amended by Senator Bogdanoff until it hit the Senate floor.

    The House version passed its committees and then sat for weeks waiting for the Senate version to pass through committee. It tabled in favor of the Senate Bogdanoff Amended version, which gutted open carry. On the morning of the House vote, Rep. Abruzzo, a Democrat, submitted an amendment which would have restored the bill to its original open carry version. However, the Speaker of the House, Rep. Dean Cannon, refused to allow the Abruzzo amended bill version to be called for a vote. The reason was to protect RINO representatives who didn't want to go on record as voting against a gun bill, thus maintaining their pro-2A appearance, but didn't want to vote for open carry either. Rep. Abruzzo was pressured by Rep. Cannon to withdraw his amendment, and the open carry gutted version was voted on and passed.

    However, Rep. Cannon's term as speaker is up after the 2012 session, and he will be replaced by Rep. Weatherford, who is notably pro-2A. Sen. Evers' analysis is correct. An open carry bill would not be passed in the upcoming session, but very well may stand a chance in the 2013 session.
    I don't believe Evers' assessment should be the matter of debate. He is correct.

    However, since the pressure was put on to conceal the RINOs true intentions was made, it is even more important to keep making an effort to pass this bill merely to ensure their exposure. Allowing them to maintain their false identity will only hurt OC in FL when 2013 gets here.

    If you're not exposing them, you're helping them.

    I picked up a little motorcycle so that I can OC to and from fishing, hunting, camping, and target shooting in a manner that can effectively get people talking about it. I may be living on a campsite soon, so, when will I ever not being doing one of those things? 790.25 will apply to me at virtually all times...
    Last edited by ixtow; 10-12-2011 at 06:07 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich7553 View Post
    Given the fact that Mr. Gutmacher makes a living defending those who may be open carrying unlawfully, is it a stretch to think his opinion is somewhat slanted?
    Nailed!!!

  20. #20
    Regular Member Rich7553's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piolin View Post
    Nailed!!!
    Thanks. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and again!
    Rich
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  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Yeah, it'd be tough to collect those big piles of money defending people against a law that doesn't exist anymore. If my cushy do-nothing job depended on people getting in trouble for something like that, I wouldn't want that law to go away either... Once you've tried a case like that, it's just a rubber stamp for the next one. Change the names and a few immaterial circumstances, and grind out another pile of cash. It's easier than software development.

    Always, follow the money...
    Last edited by ixtow; 10-17-2011 at 05:17 PM.
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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