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Thread: Fond du Lac Walmart call cops on MWG, with REPORT

  1. #1
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    Fond du Lac Walmart call cops on MWG, with REPORT

    Here is the proof that some have demanded, "no news, no google it didnt happen" types.
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  2. #2
    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    Very nice! Thanks for posting this!

    Shame on the Walmart employees for wasting everyone's time.

    Also, if the employees admitted the suspect was back in the store, again, continuing to shop, why did the LEOs break out the "big" guns? I don't of any stories of crazies filling up a shopping cart with groceries and then going on a rampage. The crazies just look around at stuff, nonchalant, then go for it.
    Last edited by carsontech; 10-10-2011 at 02:12 AM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    That was a crappy situation. I thought Walmart policy was to allow carry in compliance with state law (guess I'm mistaken)?

    I'm torn on the officers conduct. On one hand they seem respectful according to the report, but it bothers me that they have to approach people with rifles at ready simply due to a MWAG call. They could have observed the person and seen the MWAG was really a normal dude shopping for some diapers.

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Thanks For Posting This!

    Pretty sad how they acted. Looks like some of the store employees lied about the gun too. We should have a get together at that Walmart location and go shopping. Interesting to see the reactions of the employees if 50 armed people showed up to shop.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot Walmart!?

    How many times do the stores need to be reminded by corporate of their corporate policy????? Their manager should be currently unemployed. This is ridiculous. I see no indication of any customer complaints; which is the only reason they are supposed to kick someone out, just uniformed employees. Time to send some emails methinks.

    Anyway, for some constructive criticism for the OP.

    Personally, I would not have went back into the store. I would have left my full cart where it sat, went shopping somewhere else, went home, and called or emailed Wal-Mart corporate.

    I think you did everything right with the initial confrontation with the police and that must have been pretty nerve-racking. However; once it was clear that you were not a threat and everyone had calmed down I would have not consented to a search of my vehicle. The police had no legal reason to do so.

    Just trying to be constructive, please don't take it the wrong way.


    As for the Cops. Give me a break! Gun's drawn and AR-15's? Threats of possible charges of Disorderly Conduct in the future? I assume this happened after the DC provisions in act 35 took effect. These guys are going to have to get used to LAC's carrying and need to take it down a notch or ten. I think this huge over reacting response is a new record for OC in WI.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    As for the Cops. Give me a break! Gun's drawn and AR-15's? Threats of possible charges of Disorderly Conduct in the future? I assume this happened after the DC provisions in act 35 took effect. These guys are going to have to get used to LAC's carrying and need to take it down a notch or ten. I think this huge over reacting response is a new record for OC in WI.
    I read that too and was like . Why do you need weapons drawn to approach someone who is acting in a lawful manner? What criminal is going to OC?!
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

  7. #7
    McX
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    searching his vehicle, running the gun, then running him for wants and warrants?! trying to get anything they can, any way they can. nothing has changed, and nothing will change once we all get permits.

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Martin #38 tells the unarmed person that was kind enough not to cause a disturbance by respecting the stores wish that exercising a constitutional right is a bad idea! Even if empty as it would appear.
    Is Holder giving guest lectures at police academies?

  9. #9
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Hopefully you guys in WI will not let this go by, if this cancer is allowed to spread it could kill all our rights
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
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    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    wait, you were put into the back of a squad car for being an American?
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  11. #11
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    searching his vehicle, running the gun, then running him for wants and warrants?! trying to get anything they can, any way they can. nothing has changed, and nothing will change once we all get permits.
    He consented. The Police "asked" to search the vehicle. They are always going to ask. It's up to us to tell them NO.

    Everything before that; I agree, way out of line.


    ETA: BTW; Eques, I didn't think about this in my first post but if you felt that you didn't have a choice and had to consent to the search of your vehicle or felt intimidated into doing so in any way by the armed soldiers, you may have been coerced in the eyes of the court and it may be a legally actionable 4A violation. Please contact a lawyer.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 10-10-2011 at 11:29 AM.
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    Campaign Veteran Flipper's Avatar
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    Sounds like there is an effort to harass open carriers in FdL. Wonder how many times the not-so veiled threat "you could cause a distribance that will result in a disorderly conduct charge" will be used in the future. Would not at all be suprised that over-response is a tactic the Wisconsin Police Chiefs Association has recommended to its members. Their legislative liason is a buddy of the chief WAVE ghoul.
    Last edited by Flipper; 10-10-2011 at 11:30 AM.
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
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    "Everything that we see is a shadow cast by that which we do not see." - Martin Luther King Jr.

  13. #13
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass Magnet View Post
    He consented. The Police "asked" to search the vehicle. They are always going to ask. It's up to us to tell them NO. Everything before that; I agree, way out of line. ETA: BTW; Eques, I didn't think about this in my first post but if you felt that you didn't have a choice and had to consent to the search of your vehicle or felt intimidated into doing so in any way by the armed soldiers, you may have been coerced in the eyes of the court and it may be a legally actionable 4A violation. Please contact a lawyer.
    Yes, force majeure may be so subtle as a cop using his big-boy voice. More than one, guns drawn or tactical positioning is easily argued as force majeure coercion and custodial detention.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    Hopefully you guys in WI will not let this go by, if this cancer is allowed to spread it could kill all our rights
    It never does. We push back in making the police obey the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flipper View Post
    Sounds like there is an effort to harass open carriers in FdL. Wonder how many times the not-so veiled threat "you could cause a distribance that will result in a disorderly conduct charge" will be used in the future. Would not at all be suprised that over-response is a tactic the Wisconsin Police Chiefs Association has recommended to its members. Their legislative liason is a buddy of the chief WAVE ghoul.
    Well, it does depend on the "totality of the circumstances."
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

    I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians. - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights)

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    So, let me get this straight. W-M employees--ignorant of corporate policy well established, called the cops on a man with a 'holster.' The cops responded, threatening deadly force, unlawfully searched him but successfully coerced him into--foolishly, giving up his constitutional rights under the 4th Amendment and searched his car. Then, in their wisdom, emparted that enjoying his constitutional right, under US and WI law, could get him arrested for DC or some other ******** catch all charge. Then they let the subject--not citizen, go. Well, no harm, no foul in a slave state. However, WI is no longer a slave state, so there was harm and that can't stand. W-M corporate needs to be called. Unfortunately, when you give up your rights and the police then walk all over them, you're out of luck in that regard. "Officer safety" BS, that could have been trumped by objection to the search and then refusal to allow searching your car, paints the whole incident. Learn from it and do not ever again give up your rights that many have died to protect.
    Last edited by Gunslinger; 10-10-2011 at 12:32 PM.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Yes, force majeure may be so subtle as a cop using his big-boy voice. More than one, guns drawn or tactical positioning is easily argued as force majeure coercion and custodial detention.
    Force majeure applies to contract law in the US. Although the definition includes "Overpowering force," it is not generally applied to police power used in an instant case against an individual unless that police 'power' causes breach of a contractual clause.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    This is one of the cases relevant to coerced consent:

    "Consent obtained by duress or coercion is not voluntary consent." Lakoskey, 462 F.3d at 973.
    I used to have a Word file with case law on some of this stuff but I can't find it. I know there's more, even going so far as to describe multiple officers as being enough to imply coercion.
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  18. #18
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Then, in their wisdom, emparted that enjoying his constitutional right, under US and WI law,
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    Force majeure applies to contract law in the US. Although the definition includes "Overpowering force," it is not generally applied to police power used in an instant case against an individual unless that police 'power' causes breach of a contractual clause.
    Thanks for the [scare-quotes]education[/scare-quotes]. LOL

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    I called BS and I was RIGHT.

    If that happened to me, I would demand a face to face meeting with the District Manager. The store manager broke corp. policy, thus having officers enter the store with firearms at the low ready. Not good.

    Giving consent to search?

    That being said, I called out the original post on this a MAJOR BS. I was correct. Two officers, one with a rifle and another with a handgun, as in the report. NOT the TEN(10) officers with assault rifles, shotguns and handguns drawn as claimed in the original post. F.B.S.

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    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    That being said, I called out the original post on this a MAJOR BS. I was correct. Two officers, one with a rifle and another with a handgun, as in the report. NOT the TEN(10) officers with assault rifles, shotguns and handguns drawn as claimed in the original post. F.B.S.
    There were at least 3 officers on scene according to the police reports gathered and attached to this thread.

    I don't know department protocol, but is it possible more were on scene but did not have to complete reports according to procedure?

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trip20 View Post
    There were at least 3 officers on scene according to the police reports gathered and attached to this thread.

    I don't know department protocol, but is it possible more were on scene but did not have to complete reports according to procedure?
    As per the report, only 2 officers approached him in the store with weapons brandished at low ready, not TEN -10 - DIES like he claimed in his original post.

    Two officers were enough to make this a very interesting event. Why would any stable and balanced person lie and exagerate beyond beleiveable raises the question whether this person should even carry a gun.

  22. #22
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    ^^^
    I think you are reading a bit much into this...........

    Look, the incident happened, whether or not certain details were "embellished". A little constructive criticism can certainly help but you're a ways off from that. The other thread didn't even have the same OP.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    As per the report, only 2 officers approached him in the store with weapons brandished at low ready, not TEN -10 - DIES like he claimed in his original post.

    Two officers were enough to make this a very interesting event. Why would any stable and balanced person lie and exagerate beyond beleiveable raises the question whether this person should even carry a gun.
    The report did not confirm nor deny that there were 10 total officers on scene. It merely mentioned a number of officers by name who were in the store. More may have responded in the parking lot... The report supports the facts that an AR15 and 870 were deployed in response to a man with gun with no report of disorderly behavior mentioned. Excessive force clearly was used in this case.

  24. #24
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eques View Post
    Well I used to open carry, but tonight at the friendly neighborhood Walmart, was ask to leave. I've open carried there plenty of times before with out incident. When told I could not possess a firearm wile shopping at Walmart, I put my gun in my truck and finished shopping. 20 minutes later at least 10 police officers armed with 870's, m16's, and handguns drawn approached my fiancee, son and I. Searched me and escorted me out of the store. The cops were cool about it, but apparently Walmart employees call the cops and told them an armed customer refused to leave. After talk with the store employees and me, I was free to leave. The officers acted professionally and polite, but the Walmart employees actions was uncalled for. I was asked to leave, I apologized and left politely. The employee who asked me to leave told me there where no firearms signs posted (the cops or I didn't find any). I've written the local store and corporate asking what the firearm policy is. I don't recommend OC at the Fond du Lac Walmart
    Officer Jed Martin was the first to respond. As soon as the 2nd officer, Officer Kristen Kachelmeier responded, they both entered together. Officer Martin was brandishing a rifle and Officer Kachelmeier was brandishing her duty pistol. They approached the subject and escorted him out. Officer Brian Bednarek entered the store brandishing a shotgun as the other 2 officers were escorting the subject out of the store.

    If there were more officers, then Fond du lac PD is in violation of Open Records Laws. I don't think that is the case. One officer with a rifle, and one with a hand gun and later one with a shotgun is 3 armed officers, not 10. The police reports back up every part of his story escept the number of officers responding. Every officer that responded and was armed would be required to fill out a report and would have been included in the ORR. There are only 3, not atleast 10 like he states the day after the incident.

    There is something wrong with a person that would say that there were atleast 10 when there were only 3.

    And I don't get it why he lied. Three officers more than enough to make this a huge deal. I knew 10 officers responding was a lie.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    If that happened to me, I would demand a face to face meeting with the District Manager. The store manager broke corp. policy, thus having officers enter the store with firearms at the low ready. Not good.

    Giving consent to search?

    That being said, I called out the original post on this a MAJOR BS. I was correct. Two officers, one with a rifle and another with a handgun, as in the report. NOT the TEN(10) officers with assault rifles, shotguns and handguns drawn as claimed in the original post. F.B.S.
    Does the the default position HAVE to be that the LEO paperwork trumps the word of a fellow forum member? There are at least 4 possible explanations for the disparity, only one of which justifies an accusation of lying:

    -- Not all responding officers have to file a report (Trip 20's suggested possibility)
    -- 10 LEOs responded, but were so embarrassed by the circumstance that they "adjusted" the record
    -- Some of the responding cops were from another jurisdiction, such as deputy Sheriffs, or were rent-a-cops
    -- The victim of the store/LEO overreaction lied about the number of responding officers.

    Personally, I don't care how many LEOs the report says responded: The situation was badly handled and the OP deserves the support of his friends in arms.

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