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Thread: Scranton Police Encounter

  1. #1
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    Scranton Police Encounter

    Not Open Carry but:

    I was wearing a pullover when I walked into the Chinese restaurant. While getting out of the truck it must have pulled up a little and the bottom of the gun was sticking out like half of it. So I go in give them my phone number pay them and get my food and walk out. I then notice someone following me closely (like his shadow is almost over mine). So switch my food to my left hand with my keys to the truck just in case I need to get to my weapon and i'm going to have to defend my Chinese food (id fight to the death for my General TSO Chicken).

    And I hear: “Excuse me” so I turn around and notice it is a SPD cop. I'm like “yes what's up” even thou I knew what was about to happen. He says: “I notice you are carrying a gun” I'm like “yup and so are you so I guess we are even” he laughed at that. He goes “is that one of those S&W M&P’s I'm like Why yes it is. He asks is it the full sized or compact I answered compact. Do u like it ? I'm like ya I love it. . . He asks what caliber 9mm ? I'm like no it’s a .357 sig. but I can change the barrel and shoot 40 out of it with no issues so it is cheaper to shoot. He says I was thinking of getting one and wanted to find someone that had one to see if they liked it then I noticed that u walked in and I thought it was an M&P. we chatted for a few minutes about it. then he asks “I'm assuming that u have a LTCF right” I said yup I do would u like to see it ? he’s like nope u seem like one of the good guys and he thanked me for the information. All in all good encounter but I forgot to get his information, he was definitely a higher up cuz he had on a white shirt and a gold badge, plus my food was getting cold . .

  2. #2
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    So because you can't conceal your handgun, you got detained and questioned and your food got cold. I'd say that's an epic fail on your part.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    What to write?

    I understand the impulse to say a police encounter was "good." But, there is no such thing when discussing investigative encounters. At best we can say "legal."

    Since the OPer stopped and chatted, I'm guessing the cop judged the OPer probably wasn't a criminal. The OPer wasn't evasive, didn't run, didn't get nervous. And, had the correct answer to the LTCF question with presumably no hard swallowing prior to answering.

    Since an LTCF is required to CC in PA, if the muzzle end of a holster was showing, it probably would have been legal for the cop to actually detain the OPer, I'm thinking. Since, the OPer seems to have chatted with the cop consensually, I'm thinking the OPer's consent renders moot any question about whether a detention occurred.

    While this investigative encounter was better than too many we've read, I'm going to have to wait for a cop to say, "I see you're CCing, but since I refuse to enforce a law that infringes the PA constitution's RKBA, I'm not going to even ask you about it." That would be a good encounter.

    In the meantime, lets not overlook what probably would have happened if the first thing the OPer did was exercise his rights by saying, "No offense officer. But, I don't consent to an encounter with you."
    Last edited by Citizen; 10-10-2011 at 05:52 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    So because you can't conceal your handgun, you got detained and questioned and your food got cold. I'd say that's an epic fail on your part.
    I agree with you on this one...lol

    Citizen,

    We won't call it a "good" encounter. We'll call it a solid encounter, ok?
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    I agree with you on this one...lol

    Citizen,

    We won't call it a "good" encounter. We'll call it a solid encounter, ok?
    I was gonna insist on "legal", but then I remembered the PA constitution's RKBA is even more strict than most:

    Article I, section 21: "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." (Italics added by Citizen)

    So, it seems the cop did indeed question the OPer about it. And, even if the legislature and courts do approve of a licensing scheme, criminalizing a violation of that scheme (making it technically legal to temporarily detain the citizen suspected of CC?), it is clearly a violation of the PA constitution's declaration of rights.

  6. #6
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    jeez you guys are a tough crowd. just because the guy was wearing a uniform and badge doesn't mean this wasn't a good encounter. take those away and I'm sure any one of you would say that it was a good encounter.

    What do you expect? The police to watch us from afar without speaking to us like some creepy stalker?
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

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  7. #7
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    SNIP
    What do you expect? The police to watch us from afar without speaking to us like some creepy stalker?
    Nope, I expect even less than that. I expect the police to leave me the hell alone unless I have committed a crime or they have RAS to believe that I have.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 10-10-2011 at 06:49 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Nope, I expect even less than that. I expect the police to leave me the hell alone unless I have committed a crime or they have RAS to believe that I have.
    then you have two choices. you can either get in a time machine and go back to the days when the sherrif sat in his office/jailhouse all day until someone called him for a crime, or move to Newland, NC where my fiancee's father does the same thing.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

    EDC = Walther PPQ 9mm

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    then you have two choices. you can either get in a time machine and go back to the days when the sherrif sat in his office/jailhouse all day until someone called him for a crime, or move to Newland, NC where my fiancee's father does the same thing.
    I don't really see it that way. The police should not interfere in my life or anyone else's unless absolutely necessary. Since you brought it up, back in the day of the sheriff, he had a posse made up of regular citizens.....don't see the police doing that now. Some would make us enemies rather than allies.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    then you have two choices. you can either get in a time machine and go back to the days when the sherrif sat in his office/jailhouse all day until someone called him for a crime, or move to Newland, NC where my fiancee's father does the same thing.
    That's right, TheBigSD! You have two choices! And only two. Like it or lump it!

    Because you are insignificant, and nothing's gonna ever change just because you expect it. So, you should just sit down and shut up and learn to like it.

    Don't bother criticizing anything you think is improper, wrong, unconstitutional, or slippery slope. You're not allowed to criticize. Its not one of your choices. Neither is it one of your choices to convey your analysis, expectations or criticism to others in hopes of persuading them to see a different, more freedom-oriented view.

    The view has already been decided--by the police, the courts, and those who have bought into it. Your view is nothing.

    So, shut up. And, learn to like it.

    /sarcasm.

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    this encounter seemed decent. I wouldn't take offense if a cop asked me about my gun then just mentioned the license. from the OP here it sounded consensual....nothing wrong with that!
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

  12. #12
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    That's right, TheBigSD! You have two choices! And only two. Like it or lump it!

    Because you are insignificant, and nothing's gonna ever change just because you expect it. So, you should just sit down and shut up and learn to like it.

    Don't bother criticizing anything you think is improper, wrong, unconstitutional, or slippery slope. You're not allowed to criticize. Its not one of your choices. Neither is it one of your choices to convey your analysis, expectations or criticism to others in hopes of persuading them to see a different, more freedom-oriented view.

    The view has already been decided--by the police, the courts, and those who have bought into it. Your view is nothing.

    So, shut up. And, learn to like it.

    /sarcasm.
    I'm glad to see we can both make great use of hyperbole.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

    EDC = Walther PPQ 9mm

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    That's right, TheBigSD! You have two choices! And only two. Like it or lump it!

    Because you are insignificant, and nothing's gonna ever change just because you expect it. So, you should just sit down and shut up and learn to like it.

    Don't bother criticizing anything you think is improper, wrong, unconstitutional, or slippery slope. You're not allowed to criticize. Its not one of your choices. Neither is it one of your choices to convey your analysis, expectations or criticism to others in hopes of persuading them to see a different, more freedom-oriented view.

    The view has already been decided--by the police, the courts, and those who have bought into it. Your view is nothing.

    So, shut up. And, learn to like it.

    /sarcasm.
    Yes sir!!! Crawling back into my cave of oblivion....nothing can hurt me in here........nothing can hurt me...........
    Last edited by thebigsd; 10-10-2011 at 09:17 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Yes sir!!! Crawling back into my cave of oblivion....nothing can hurt me in here........nothing can hurt me...........
    Not until I've searched the cave without a warrant to see if there are any other unauthorized or contraband ideas.

    Sit down, shut up, and don't move. I'm gonna search this place. Now, where are those freedom ideas? Don't deny it! You want me to rip this place apart? Or, do you just want to tell me where they are, now? It will go easier if you tell me.

    WHERE ARE THEY?!?!



  15. #15
    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    Contrary to popular belief, some encounters with on duty leos are not invasive. Not every cop is out to get you. I once was standing in a convinience store when I was approached by a leo that I had seen a few times before but, this was the first time he had seen me oc'ing. He engaged me in some small talk regarding my firearm. We discussed calibers, similar models and their pros and cons etc. Then he gave me some tips for more effectively cleaning my firearm and asked If he could remove my firearm from it's holster to illustrate the discussion. I granted him permission and he removed the mag and the round from the chamber handing them to me. When he was done he asked for the mag and round back, loaded the chamber and placed the mag back into my firearm returning it to it's holster.

    If this was a negative encounter in any way, then I guess the only positive encounters involve a good looking leo of the oppisite sex --Moderator edited--

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    There is a right time and a wrong time to be an jerk and do into "Am I being detained" mode to a LEO and this wasn't it. . . .

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    Activist Member JamesCanby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    this encounter seemed decent. I wouldn't take offense if a cop asked me about my gun then just mentioned the license. from the OP here it sounded consensual....nothing wrong with that!
    Call me paranoid, but every conversation with a LEO should be considered a fishing expedition. All it takes is one wrong answer to a seemingly innocent question and the LEO is bound to escalate the situation.

    We all need to learn not to volunteer information. In this instance, when the LEO asked the OP if he had a LTCF, the only answer should have been "Yes", not "Yes, would you like to see it." It takes some time to learn to listen to -- and understand -- the question being asked and to respond with the minimal amount of information. If the question is ambiguous, ask for clarification of what's being asked before blurting out information that may get you into trouble.

    Part of good Situational Awareness extends to being aware of what's actually being asked and making sure you are not giving up more information than what's required to answer the question -- if, indeed, you decide to answer the question at all.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Large Caliber Kick View Post
    Contrary to popular belief, some encounters with on duty leos are not invasive. Not every cop is out to get you. I once was standing in a convinience store when I was approached by a leo that I had seen a few times before but, this was the first time he had seen me oc'ing. He engaged me in some small talk regarding my firearm. We discussed calibers, similar models and their pros and cons etc. Then he gave me some tips for more effectively cleaning my firearm and asked If he could remove my firearm from it's holster to illustrate the discussion. I granted him permission and he removed the mag and the round from the chamber handing them to me.
    You have got to be kidding me. This is the STUPIDEST thing I've heard in a LONG time regarding firearms. NEVER let another handle your gun. That's how people get shot, handling the gun when it's not NECESSARY. (facepalm)
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesCanby View Post
    Call me paranoid, but every conversation with a LEO should be considered a fishing expedition. All it takes is one wrong answer to a seemingly innocent question and the LEO is bound to escalate the situation.

    We all need to learn not to volunteer information. In this instance, when the LEO asked the OP if he had a LTCF, the only answer should have been "Yes", not "Yes, would you like to see it." It takes some time to learn to listen to -- and understand -- the question being asked and to respond with the minimal amount of information. If the question is ambiguous, ask for clarification of what's being asked before blurting out information that may get you into trouble.

    Part of good Situational Awareness extends to being aware of what's actually being asked and making sure you are not giving up more information than what's required to answer the question -- if, indeed, you decide to answer the question at all.
    +1

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    Regular Member jahwarrior72's Avatar
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    considering my past problems with the Scranton PD over the years, i'd say this was an excellent encounter. sure, it was investigative, but the LEO kept it casual, and never once stepped out of line, or overstepped his authority. so what if he was fishing? he didn't catch anything, and the OP didn't fall to his knees, wallet in hand. what the ****, guys? did any of you ever read about dealings with the Scranton PD, and other PDs of the area?

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ctions-in-NEPA

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...nton-PD-Idiocy

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...-LEO-Encounter

    according to the OP's story, their attitude about open carry has seen a MARKED improvement. the last time i had to deal with them, i was surrounded by about 8 of them, getting cursed out because i wouldn't hand over my wallet.

    or maybe it's just because the OP is white.
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJB1075 View Post
    There is a right time and a wrong time to be an jerk and do into "Am I being detained" mode to a LEO and this wasn't it. . . .
    Huh!?!?

    Are you saying one is a jerk to exercise rights?

    Are you saying one cannot exercise his rights politely? In a friendly manner, even?

  22. #22
    Regular Member Large Caliber Kick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    You have got to be kidding me. This is the STUPIDEST thing I've heard in a LONG time regarding firearms. NEVER let another handle your gun. That's how people get shot, handling the gun when it's not NECESSARY. (facepalm)
    He carries a Glock 22 for his duty weapon. I carry a SW40VE. These are two nearly identical firearms exept for the two ton trigger on the sigma. If I'd have been carrying a 1911 with a 2lb competition trigger spring (a stupid thing to do in the first place) then I wouldn't have let him anywhere near my firearm.

  23. #23
    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Reminds me of one of the mornings heading to Skidmarks hearings in Surry, VA. Cop behind me in line at 7-11 tried a "consentual encounter" asking if I liked my holster. I said, "No, I don't think I do. Excuse me I'm late" and exited.

    Don't talk to the cops!

  24. #24
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    If a cop engaged me in friendly conversation about the pistol I was OCing, I would gladly talk with him--as I would a guy wearing a Flightsuit or blue jeans. If I was CCing and it showed because my shirt rode up, and he engaged me in friendly conversation about the pistol I was carrying, I would gladly talk to him. OC is legal in CO, so there would be no problem going from CC to OC. However, if CCing, you need a permit. Had he at the end--still in a friendly manner, mentioned I do need a permit to CC and asked if I had one, I would simply say yes. I would expect the conversation to end at that point. However, he could legally ask to see it in this situation and I would show it to him. Then I would go about my business. I see little difference between what the OP did and what I would do. Therefore: I would call either situation a "non" encounter.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    You have got to be kidding me. This is the STUPIDEST thing I've heard in a LONG time regarding firearms. NEVER let another handle your gun. That's how people get shot, handling the gun when it's not NECESSARY. (facepalm)
    100% agreed Badger!

    I would never let someone else take my pistol from the holster on my hip. If anything, and this completely depends on the situation and where you are and who wants to see it, I would take it out myself, unload it, and hand it over. Being this was an LEO, I probably would have told him that I felt more comfortable leaving right where it was.

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