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Illegally detained and searched

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
What? Are you kidding me? If one is not free to leave, they are being detained.

What? Are you kidding me? Are you really going to try to say that you only made one legal point in a post where I highlighted/boldfaced several?

I see. OK. I've got the medicine for that.

Cites, please for these points from your post:

1. That reasonable suspicion must be articulable at inception of a detention.

2. That an identity demand can only be made if RAS is present

3. That an identity demand turns an encounter into a detention.

4. That an order to stop is a detention (meaning please cite authority showing mere words constitute a seizure, rather than an actual physical seizure of the detainee's body.)


Nobody should construe that because I am insisting on cites, I think he is wrong. I'm not discussing whether he is right, wrong, or skewed. I am discussing the lack of cites. Period. Nothing more. He may be right about some points, he may be right about all points, he may be a mixture of right and wrong. But, until we have the cites, new readers cannot know for sure.
 

Rick H

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2011
Messages
323
Location
Hoover, Alabama
Rick H:

Thanks for posting and starting this thread which has elicited much beneficial discussion.

One suggestion: if something like this ever happens again, begin by being respectful and cooperative. Who knows, it may make a difference in the ultimate outcome of an encounter such as this.

When all of this started there was a point of respect from both sides other than my private affairs being investigated and the feeling that I was being interagated as a criminal. I showed respect through and through, But, when it came to the officers turn to Respect my wishes to not be consulted about my personal information he then began to show his disrespect toward myself. I did still show restraint and respect toward him throughout the whole Incident. I did not feel I should say thank you or anything when departing because I felt violated and did not say anything other than am I free to go and walk away after being released.
So as to the question of was I disrespectful the answer is no, did I give any other reason to be disrespectfull other than saying no I will not show my id? NO. I was polite all the way through.
 
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RetiredOC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,561
popcorn anyone?...lol
587.jpg
 
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Verd

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
381
Location
Lampe, Missouri, United States
Rich, I completely understand what you have just said but lets face it. What is so bad about a consentual encounter?... I personaly would prefer to not waste anyones time if I dont have to, but if I can help someone or save someones life by doing so, I will.

As long as it stays consentual, there isn't anything bad about it. But by your words above, it seems like you are saying that you do not do "consentual" encounters. If you did "consentual" encounters, then you could not help someone or save someone's life, simply because the person(s) that you are having an encounter with, if it is "consentual", can leave at any time and thereby not giving you time to determine if you can help or save someone's life nor time to act on it.
 

Verd

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
381
Location
Lampe, Missouri, United States
What? Are you kidding me? Are you really going to try to say that you only made one legal point in a post where I highlighted/boldfaced several?

I see. OK. I've got the medicine for that.

Cites, please for these points from your post:

1. That reasonable suspicion must be articulable at inception of a detention.

2. That an identity demand can only be made if RAS is present

3. That an identity demand turns an encounter into a detention.

4. That an order to stop is a detention (meaning please cite authority showing mere words constitute a seizure, rather than an actual physical seizure of the detainee's body.)


Nobody should construe that because I am insisting on cites, I think he is wrong. I'm not discussing whether he is right, wrong, or skewed. I am discussing the lack of cites. Period. Nothing more. He may be right about some points, he may be right about all points, he may be a mixture of right and wrong. But, until we have the cites, new readers cannot know for sure.

I am relatively new here and I would like to know the cites for these as well, and if they are only in regards to his home state or if they are in regards to every state.
 

Verd

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
381
Location
Lampe, Missouri, United States
Huh!?!?!

The OPer doesn't particularly relate being disrespectful or impolite to the cop. And, from what I can tell the OPer cooperated with the cop to the full extent required by law.

Are you saying he should waive his rights next time?

And, where in the constitution does it say rights must be exercised politely or respectfully?

Lets keep this in perspective. Lets take a look at some real non-cooperation and disrespect. The OPer didn't punch the cop, he didn't try to knife the cop, he didn't run and make the cop chase him through yards risking a twisted ankle or clotheslined throat.

Respect? Cooperation? Two way street, Mister. Will you be writing that police department "suggesting" the officer start his next encounter by being respectful, rather than deceitful, and cooperating with the citizen when the citizen exercises his rights?

Lets face it. That nasty little cop meant to detain the OPer from the outset. He meant to dig into the OPers business, whether the OPer exercised his rights or not. He had no intention of respecting the OPers rights from the moment he approached the OPer.

Rights are rights are rights are rights. They don't need justification. They don't need an explanation. The justifications and explanations were figured out long, long ago. They're not there to make interesting conversation when confronted by a cop or government. Literally over a million Americans have died defending them. Some of them go back almost literally 800 years to Magna Carta. Most were paid for in blood before the American Revolution. Blood! dammit. Countless millions have suffered for lack of them, or died. A cop's curiosity and your opinion pale into pathetic insignificance against the historical record and the cost of obtaining rights.

Exactly.

For an officer who is ONLY engaging in a consentual encounter, the only way to begin it with respect is a simple "Hey, hows it going?" or something along those lines that any streanger would reasonably expect to get from another stranger. Then the citizen can decide if he/she/it wants to respond, just like strangers vs strangers. The problem is that every cop that I have seen (personally or with videos) do not start off encounters that way. They start encounters with tone and language that makes it clear that the person they are deeming to speak to has to answer them. It is clear from the outset that cops treat consentual encounters as detainments until the person they are detaining ASKS if they are being detained. And when the cops say no and the person starts to walk away, the cops then and only then shout out that "Yes, you are being detained."

There is no respect whatsoever in the latter, and sadly, I have yet to have seen something along the lines of the former.
 

ixtow

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
5,038
Location
Suwannee County, FL
No harm ever came from a consensual encounter. In fact I believe its healthy, and strenghthens the relationship between Citizen and Police.

Thanks...

Not to YOU...

I also admit that I've been abused and violated by a great many Cops, and consider even having to look at them to be a detraction from my quality of life.

Everybody has different life experiences. Just because you don't see a problem with it, doesn't make it so.

Consensual has nothing to do with Reasonable. Detainment does.

I know I'm unreasonable, and I like me that way. It's the only reason I'm alive.

I disagree.

I agree with your disagreement.

BUT HAS THE OP KICKED ANYONE'S DISGRACEFUL ASS YET?
 
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Citizen

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Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
I am relatively new here and I would like to know the cites for these as well, and if they are only in regards to his home state or if they are in regards to every state.

OK. Rather than wait for Rich, who may or may not come back or cite, below is some reading to get started on:

1. Reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS). See Terry vs Ohio. Other, later cases examined the need for RAS at inception, rather than developing RAS after the encounter became involuntary. If you arrive at any legal/court opinion website, just type into the search feature "inception". Some of the returns should take you to something.

2. Whether cop must have RAS for identity demand. See three cases, best read in the order given. Brown vs Texas, Kolender vs Lawson, Hiibel vs 6th Judicial District Court.*

3. Whether an identity demand turns an encounter into a seizure and whether an order to stop turns an encounter into a seizure. See US vs Mendenhall. Also, there is another federal case out there that gives more info.

The fun thing about reading court opinions is that they often cite and quote other cases, giving you a thread to follow. And, 4th Amendment cases are pretty easy to read, with very little legal-ese. Also, all SCOTUS cases have a syllabus (summary). You can learn a lot fast by reading the summary. However, you definitely want to come back and read the entire opinion at some point. The syllabi often omit context important to a full understanding.

*You can actually watch video of the police encounter that led to Hiibel vs 6th Judicial District Court. Larry Hiibel's police encounter was recorded on police car dashcam. Its available on YouTube. Just type Hiibel into the search feature.
 
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Verd

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
381
Location
Lampe, Missouri, United States
OK. Rather than wait for Rich, who may or may not come back or cite, below is some reading to get started on:

1. Reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS). See Terry vs Ohio. Other, later cases examined the need for RAS at inception, rather than developing RAS after the encounter became involuntary. If you arrive at any legal/court opinion website, just type into the search feature "inception". Some of the returns should take you to something.

2. Whether cop must have RAS for identity demand. See three cases, best read in the order given. Brown vs Texas, Kolender vs Lawson, Hiibel vs 6th Judicial District Court.*

3. Whether an identity demand turns an encounter into a seizure and whether an order to stop turns an encounter into a seizure. See US vs Mendenhall. Also, there is another federal case out there that gives more info.

The fun thing about reading court opinions is that they often cite and quote other cases, giving you a thread to follow. And, 4th Amendment cases are pretty easy to read, with very little legal-ese.

*You can actually watch video of the police encounter that led to Hiibel vs 6th Judicial District Court. Larry Hiibel's police encounter was recorded on police car dashcam. Its available on YouTube. Just type Hiibel into the search feature.

Thank you! *heads off for some reading and printing*
 

MilProGuy

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 7, 2011
Messages
1,210
Location
Mississippi
That's it? That's your reply? After everything I brought to bear?

No explanation of where I'm wrong? No exposure of false premise or faulty logic in my argument?

Just a simple one-liner that addresses---nothing?

Just tell us one thing. Did you immigrate here before or after the collapse of the Soviet Union?

I will say that you brought forth some very intriquing and thought-provoking information and questions, and that it was very well presented; and I thank you for taking the time to enlighten me and others who may have benefited from your post.

However, the boorish insult at the conclusion of your post sort of "kicked the slats" from beneath an, otherwise, educated and well-crafted series of salient and insightful statements and questions.

Do you honestly think that you're going to enlist support for the open carry movement that we all support (or we wouldn't be here), by using rancor and insults towards another forum member?

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."
 
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Rich7553

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
515
Location
SWFL
Cites, please for these points from your post:

1. That reasonable suspicion must be articulable at inception of a detention.

Popple v. State, 626 So. 2d 185 - Fla: Supreme Court 1993


There are essentially three levels of police-citizen encounters. The first level is considered a consensual encounter and involves only minimal police contact. During a consensual encounter a citizen may either voluntarily comply with a police officer's requests or choose to ignore them. Because the citizen is free to leave during a consensual encounter, constitutional safeguards are not invoked. United States v. Mendenhall, 446 U.S. 544, 100 S.Ct. 1870, 64 L.Ed.2d 497 (1980).

The second level of police-citizen encounters involves an investigatory stop as enunciated in Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968). At this level, a police officer may reasonably detain a citizen temporarily if the officer has a reasonable suspicion that a person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. § 901.151 Fla. Stat. (1991). In order not to violate a citizen's Fourth Amendment rights, an investigatory stop requires a well-founded, articulable suspicion of criminal activity. Mere suspicion is not enough to support a stop. Carter v. State, 454 So.2d 739 (Fla. 2d DCA 1984).

While not involved in the instant case, the third level of police-citizen encounters involves an arrest which must be supported by probable cause that a crime has been or is being committed. Henry v. United States, 361 U.S. 98, 80 S.Ct. 168, 4 L.Ed.2d 134 (1959); § 901.15 Fla. Stat. (1991).​


Hence my statement, "If ordered to stop, it instantly becomes a detainment and reasonable suspicion needs to be articulable at that point." The key word is "ordered". So long as the individual is being "asked" and not "ordered" and the individual is free to decline, it remains a consentual stop.

2. That an identity demand can only be made if RAS is present

Jackson v. State, 319 So. 2d 617 - Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 1st Dist. 1975


The issue of the constitutionality of the Jacksonville ordinance has not been raised in this case, but it can readily be seen that the first element of the Jacksonville ordinance (reasonable grounds to believe that the person observed may have committed or may imminently commit an offense, etc.) must be present for an officer to stop a citizen on the public street and demand identification.​


3. That an identity demand turns an encounter into a detention.

Bautista v. State, 902 So. 2d 312 - Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 2nd Dist. 2005


We conclude that when the officers asked Bautista to remove his wallet, the statement was a demand that changed the nature of the encounter from a consensual one to a detention. See Armstrong v. State, 880 So.2d 1283, 1283 (Fla. 2d DCA 2004) (concluding that when an officer asked Armstrong to come to him and to open his hand, the officer's statement was a demand resulting in a seizure because a reasonable person in Armstrong's position would conclude that he or she was not free to end the encounter and leave). The record reflects that the officers had no basis to ask for Bautista's wallet and detain him because, at the time, they did not have a reasonable suspicion that Bautista had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a crime. See Popple v. State, 626 So.2d 185, 186 (Fla.1993). Instead, they asked for Bautista's identification and wallet to save the owner of the van a towing expense. Corporal Green acknowledged that he did not recall whether Bautista had even expressed any interest in taking the van to another location. Once Bautista denied having any identification, the officers had no basis to detain Bautista or to ask him to remove his wallet from his pants.​


4. That an order to stop is a detention (meaning please cite authority showing mere words constitute a seizure, rather than an actual physical seizure of the detainee's body.)

See Popple v. State above, definitions of encounters.
 

ixtow

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Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Messages
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Suwannee County, FL
I'd like to add that the nature of being pulled over while driving is a detention. Are you still driving wherever you want? No. You're detained.

Please don't ask an Officer "Am I being detained." You won't get an answer. You'll stand there, detaining yourself, waiting for approval to leave.

Also keep in mind, driving is a privilege, not a Right. You better have your papers in order.

If you get pulled over on a motorcycle while OCing on the way to go fishing... And the officer hasn't got anything traffic related to cite you for... He says he pulled you over because of the gun... That is an illegal detainment.

Do not try to escape an illegal detainment. You're being detained, legal or not, and any attempt to escape is resisting. His authority exists weather or not he is a Traitor, and you will be guilty of resisting detainment/arrest. It is perverted that such powers is extended to a traitor, but that's how for out of control our government is. So don't resist.

Always, always, always run video and audio. If you are in a place in which neither of you have a Reasonable Expectation of Privacy; it is legal to record Video and Audio. All statements to the contrary are lies.

I've cited to authority on this many times... I'm just not in the mood to do it again. You'll see many people take the wiretap law out of context and refuse to cite the definitions portion of that statute in an attempt to say that recording is illegal. It is NOT illegal. Read the whole thing and you'll see why. The law is a bit convoluted, but it is legal to record anywhere that you have no Reasonable Expectation of Privacy.

I recommend doing your own research. Don't take my word for it. The statutes are easy to search online.
 
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ADulay

Regular Member
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Oct 5, 2008
Messages
512
Location
Punta Gorda, Florida, USA
If you get pulled over on a motorcycle while OCing on the way to go fishing... And the officer hasn't got anything traffic related to cite you for... He says he pulled you over because of the gun... That is an illegal detainment.

I don't believe that to be quite so exact. Using Rich's previous post, here's the relevant section. If I'm stopped on my motorcycle for open carrying, I believe the officer would use the "IS COMMITTING" a crime as reason for the stop. He doesn't know that I'm coming back from fishing and as I'm not anywhere near a fishing hole and am in regular city traffic, I can see where it would be a normal assumption that perhaps this motorcycle guy IS COMMITTING a crime by openly carrying a gun.


"....The second level of police-citizen encounters involves an investigatory stop as enunciated in Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968). At this level, a police officer may reasonably detain a citizen temporarily if the officer has a reasonable suspicion that a person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. § 901.151 Fla. Stat. (1991). In order not to violate a citizen's Fourth Amendment rights, an investigatory stop requires a well-founded, articulable suspicion of criminal activity. Mere suspicion is not enough to support a stop. Carter v. State, 454 So.2d 739 (Fla. 2d DCA 1984)....."

Once the officer has established that I am, in fact, returning from or going to my fishing spot, the encounter is over and I should be free to go, which has always been the case to date. If this doesn't happen, THEN I've got a good reason to start getting defensive or at least start taking good notes!

Now, the next time he sees me, he's has a reasonable idea that I'm going to or coming from fishing and will most probably NOT make the traffic stop, which has also been true so far. I have seen the first LEO who pulled me over at least 4 times since our initial encounter and even though he sees my weapon, there is no attempt to stop or pull me over at all. He realizes that there is no suspicion of a crime being committed, hence, no REASON to make the traffic stop!

AD
 

ixtow

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Suwannee County, FL
I don't believe that to be quite so exact. Using Rich's previous post, here's the relevant section. If I'm stopped on my motorcycle for open carrying, I believe the officer would use the "IS COMMITTING" a crime as reason for the stop. He doesn't know that I'm coming back from fishing and as I'm not anywhere near a fishing hole and am in regular city traffic, I can see where it would be a normal assumption that perhaps this motorcycle guy IS COMMITTING a crime by openly carrying a gun.


"....The second level of police-citizen encounters involves an investigatory stop as enunciated in Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968). At this level, a police officer may reasonably detain a citizen temporarily if the officer has a reasonable suspicion that a person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. § 901.151 Fla. Stat. (1991). In order not to violate a citizen's Fourth Amendment rights, an investigatory stop requires a well-founded, articulable suspicion of criminal activity. Mere suspicion is not enough to support a stop. Carter v. State, 454 So.2d 739 (Fla. 2d DCA 1984)....."

Once the officer has established that I am, in fact, returning from or going to my fishing spot, the encounter is over and I should be free to go, which has always been the case to date. If this doesn't happen, THEN I've got a good reason to start getting defensive or at least start taking good notes!

Now, the next time he sees me, he's has a reasonable idea that I'm going to or coming from fishing and will most probably NOT make the traffic stop, which has also been true so far. I have seen the first LEO who pulled me over at least 4 times since our initial encounter and even though he sees my weapon, there is no attempt to stop or pull me over at all. He realizes that there is no suspicion of a crime being committed, hence, no REASON to make the traffic stop!

AD

I think you're stretching that a bit far, but I see your point.

Could the 'returning from or heading to' portion be established by observing the related equipment instead of detainment?

It's impossible to determine if a person has a Driver's License without pulling them over and checking for it... But the matter is that you need RAS/PC that the driver has no license, you can't just pull people over and check.

Since it is legal to OC on the way to or from fishing, the officer need RAS/PC that you are not doing that; you don't have to prove you that you are in advance.

I toss my $5 Cuban yo-yo over my handlebars and go. All the evidence of my innocence is in plain view. There is no need for detainment. Are my words "I'm going fishing" any more convincing than the actual act of going there?

I could understand your point if you had a Goldwing and a collapsible rod stowed where it could not be seen... But even then, the officer needs RAS/PC that you are NOT doing one of the things in 790.25. RAS/PC is something you KNOW, not something you are trying to find out.

Just like any other activity that is illegal in the absence of a thing. There must be knowledge of the absence of that thing, not "detain and search for the evidence of innocence."

RAS/PC is something the officer already has, not something he has to detain you to dig up. He knows you're carrying a gun openly. He doesn't know if you are going fishing or not. Until he has evidence that supports the 'not,' he has no authority to detain. Period. Just because "OMG it's a gun," doesn't mean the standards for RAS/PC/4th disappear.
 

ADulay

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
512
Location
Punta Gorda, Florida, USA
I think you're stretching that a bit far, but I see your point.

Could the 'returning from or heading to' portion be established by observing the related equipment instead of detainment?

I think I see where we're having the problem.

You can NOT see my fishing equipment as it fits nicely in my tank bag.

To the normal citizen (and local LEO) I'm a guy on a motorcycle with a gun.

I do agree with you that if the fishing equipment is out in plain sight, then the stop is dubious at best!

Good discussion going on here.

Thanks.

AD
 

mach1chris

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2011
Messages
130
Location
Miami, FL
I find it very shocking to know that there are citizens that know the laws better then the very officers that are supposed to enforce them. I've learned a bit from you guys.

Very good conversations indeed...
 
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