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Thread: DOJ Concealed Carry rules out

  1. #1
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    DOJ Concealed Carry rules out

    Thanks Auric for posting on fb.

    Here's the Certification Document requirements.

    ...applicant has successfully completed a firearms safety or training course must include all of the following information:

    The applicant’s name.

    The name of the firearms safety or training course.

    The length in hours of the firearms safety or training course.

    The date on which the applicant completed the firearms safety or training course.

    The city and state in which the applicant completed the firearms safety or training course.

    The name, address, and telephone number of the person or entity responsible for the firearms safety or training course. This may be an individual instructor, a national or state organization, a law enforcement agency, an educational institution, a firearms training school, or another public or private institution or organization.

    The name of the instructor who taught the firearms safety or training course to the applicant and the name of the agency or organization that certified the instructor.

    A signed statement by the instructor who taught the firearms safety or training course to the applicant affirming that the course satisfied the definition of a firearms safety or training course in s. Jus 17.03(8) and that the applicant successfully completed the course. An affirmation that the applicant merely attended the course is not sufficient to satisfy this requirement.





    13(8)

    “Firearms safety or training course”
    means a course that is reasonably calculated to instruct, practice, and test the student’s comprehension and application of firearm safety rules
    and safe firearm handling, that includes at least four hours of instructor-led training, and that provides a certificate or affidavit of successful completion that satisfies the content requirements of s. Jus 17.05(2).


    Read it and weep.

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/67948352/A...carry-licenses

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    I guess my first question is do we now need two certs? If we have to mail one to the asshats at the DOJ we will still need one for our personal records.





    Paging the Yellow Cat.

    *update*


    The Yellow Cat has been paged.
    Last edited by HandyHamlet; 10-13-2011 at 01:22 PM.
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  2. #2
    Regular Member bluehighways's Avatar
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    So now I'm wondering if a copy of my Hunter's Safety card is sufficient enough or if I will need to track down the guys who taught it, try to figure out how many hours we spent in class, request a letter from one of them affirming I did pass the class and it meets the requirements, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam.
    "The problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln

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    I'm going to come out and say, (and I very well could be wrong, it happens all the time.) that your hunters safety should be good to go. As well as permits that you currently hold, that are valid, or have ever been valid, that were not revoked for cause. I think the post was talking about just taking a class. Not for the rules on other ways to "earn" your license... I hope... Maybe I'll try the link again, and hope it will not crash my laptop... Again...
    "I don't really care for "cream cheese"..."

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    (h) A copy of a current or expired license held by the applicant indicating that the

    187 applicant is or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state, in another state, or in a county or

    188 municipality of this state or of another state, provided that the current or expired license has not

    189 been revoked for cause. The copy of the current or expired license must be accompanied by the

    190 applicant’s signed affirmation that the current or expired license has not been revoked for cause.

    191 This affirmation shall be submitted on an affirmation form that shall be prepared by the

    192 department and made available to the public on the department’s Internet site.

    So, this "affirmation form" is new to me...
    On to hunter education,

    148 A certificate or affidavit documenting that the applicant has successfully

    149 completed the department of natural resources’ hunter education program or a substantially

    150 similar program that is established by another state, country, or province and is recognized by the

    151 department of natural resources.

    Hope this turns out ok. Oh, a link... Yeah...

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/67948352/A...carry-licenses
    "I don't really care for "cream cheese"..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiscollector View Post
    The wife and I hold a current MN CCW permit.

    We are WI residents and as I read it, we can submit the MN CCW and a affidavit and fully comply with all they want.

    We dont even have to submit any training docs.

    Agree?????????
    Yes...


    And no...








    The MN CCW IS your training. :-P
    "I don't really care for "cream cheese"..."

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluehighways View Post
    So now I'm wondering if a copy of my Hunter's Safety card is sufficient enough or if I will need to track down the guys who taught it, try to figure out how many hours we spent in class, request a letter from one of them affirming I did pass the class and it meets the requirements, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam.
    If you can't find it, you can contact the DNR to reissue one. It is less than $10.
    Quote Originally Posted by wiscollector View Post
    As a WI taxpayer, be prepared for the DOJ to be now sued over this, costing the state unnecessary legal bills.

    They most likely will be sued by the NRA.

    ALL NRA Certificates are now invalid in WI because they do not contain all the extra info they want.

    my NRA certificate is the NRA Basic Pistol and is probably the most popular. It now doesnt meet WI rules.

    Its a 8 hour course but NRA doesnt list the hours and other things are needed on them

    Luckily I can have the instructor reissue it with the added updated info.

    Also, I can just submit my MN CCW so I have all my bases covered.

    I would bet NRA sues!
    I'm sure there will be lawsuits, but I do not know if it would be a gun rights group or a group of individuals.

    I'll hold my breathe on the NRA suing. I still don't trust them. If they do, then that trust will build, but it will be a long road for them (to get me to be a member).
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

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  7. #7
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    People, let's not hyperventilate. These are 'emergency rules' and can/will be changed by the legislature. We are screwed for 11/1 but the fight isn't over. Here is what I sent the Governor as well as all my elected representatives:

    I just saw the emergency rules and have a few points:

    JUS 17.03(8) - 4 hours was NEVER the legislative intent


    JUS 17.03(9) - "Instructor led" will exclude the DNR's online hunter safety program. Wording was never in Act 35.


    JUS 17.03(c) and (h) - I took the "NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course" and it does not state the number of hours I attended (8) and I do not have a signed statement from the instructor stating the training meets JUS 17.03(8) and that I satisfactorily completed the course. He signed my certificate, it has the date, has the city and state, has the course name, has the NRA logo.


    Constitutional Carry would of been so much simpler.


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    Paul L Fisher

  8. #8
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Garbage.

  9. #9
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    Well the DOJ messed this up. Mst be nice to make up your own law. Now let the scrambling begin. The DOJ will tell us atleast we got concealed carry and to be happy and shame on Van Hollen for making up his own law.

  10. #10
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    So much for a Hunters Safety certificate

    The DNR is offering a new pilot program to get the hunter safety cert. and, if the above information is correct, it will be meaningless as far as obtaining proof of training for the cc permit. This is intended to be for people who are familiar with the handling of guns and is the test only. This can be found on the DNR website when searching for the 'Internet/CD" hunter safety. So much for the hunter safety certificate being the means to an end.

    {Thank you for your interest in the Hunter Safety Test Out certification exam. There is no classroom instruction, firearm handling or field testing in this pilot program for Hunter Safety certification. It is a written exam only. For this reason inexperienced hunters, and parents having children under 16 years of age, may want to consider attending a traditional Hunter Safety course. To prepare for the exam please follow the instructions on the attached website. http://dnr.wi.gov/org/es/enforcement...tedtestout.htm

    Due to the limited number of seats available and the number of people who have failed to show for exam times on past exam dates your registration will not be accepted until payment for the exam is received. The first 20 people who preregister for a specific exam time AND a check is received made out to DNR in the amount of $10 will have a seat reserved for the exam. Course fees will not be refunded unless you notify me that you cannot attend no later than October 25 in advance of the exam.

    Mail the check to: Mail the check to: Jeff Dauterman; DNR Service Center; 223 E. Steinfest Rd.; Antigo, WI 54409

    To preregister for the Test Out Exam send an email that includes your full name, current address, DNR Customer ID number and specifies the exam time you want. I will reply and tentatively confirm your exam time. The seat will be held for 3 days to wait for the course fees. Once the course fee is received you will receive another email to confirm your seat is reserved. If the fees are not received within 3 days your seat will be released. You are not registered for the exam until you receive an email from me that confirms your registration.}

  11. #11
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobbersmom View Post
    The DNR is offering a new pilot program to get the hunter safety cert. and, if the above information is correct, it will be meaningless as far as obtaining proof of training for the cc permit. This is intended to be for people who are familiar with the handling of guns and is the test only. This can be found on the DNR website when searching for the 'Internet/CD" hunter safety. So much for the hunter safety certificate being the means to an end.

    {Thank you for your interest in the Hunter Safety Test Out certification exam. There is no classroom instruction, firearm handling or field testing in this pilot program for Hunter Safety certification. It is a written exam only. For this reason inexperienced hunters, and parents having children under 16 years of age, may want to consider attending a traditional Hunter Safety course. To prepare for the exam please follow the instructions on the attached website. http://dnr.wi.gov/org/es/enforcement...tedtestout.htm

    Due to the limited number of seats available and the number of people who have failed to show for exam times on past exam dates your registration will not be accepted until payment for the exam is received. The first 20 people who preregister for a specific exam time AND a check is received made out to DNR in the amount of $10 will have a seat reserved for the exam. Course fees will not be refunded unless you notify me that you cannot attend no later than October 25 in advance of the exam.

    Mail the check to: Mail the check to: Jeff Dauterman; DNR Service Center; 223 E. Steinfest Rd.; Antigo, WI 54409

    To preregister for the Test Out Exam send an email that includes your full name, current address, DNR Customer ID number and specifies the exam time you want. I will reply and tentatively confirm your exam time. The seat will be held for 3 days to wait for the course fees. Once the course fee is received you will receive another email to confirm your seat is reserved. If the fees are not received within 3 days your seat will be released. You are not registered for the exam until you receive an email from me that confirms your registration.}
    That is incorrect. The rules state that the hunters safety class certificate is accepted with no hour minimum and no face to face requirement.

  12. #12
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idiots at the DOJ
    The length in hours of the firearms safety or training course.
    Not in the law, can't do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiots at the DOJ
    The name, address, and telephone number of the person or entity responsible for the firearms safety or training course.
    Note to self: look up the info for NRA HQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiots at the DOJ
    The name of the instructor who taught the firearms safety or training course to the applicant and the name of the agency or organization that certified the instructor.
    Already on both NRA & UT documents.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiots at the DOJ
    A signed statement by the instructor who taught the firearms safety or training course to the applicant affirming that the course satisfied the definition of a firearms safety or training course in s. Jus 17.03(8) and that the applicant successfully completed the course.
    Well, the signed statement of successful completion would be the certificate itself (DUH!).

    So as a quick patch/fix (until these rules are blown up), looks like instructors need to print stickers w/ the length of course,
    contact info for the national certifying body,
    & a statement that the course meets the requirements of the law.

    I'd be surprised if there wasn't at least one motion for an emergency injunction in the next few days, perhaps a week.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 10-13-2011 at 09:48 AM. Reason: not sent to Governor yet...
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  13. #13
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    That is incorrect. The rules state that the hunters safety class certificate is accepted with no hour minimum and no face to face requirement.
    Yup:

    (4) TRAINING REQUIREMENTS. (a) The proof of training
    requirement under sub. (7) (e) may be met by any of
    the following
    :
    1. A copy of a document, or an affidavit from an
    instructor or organization that conducted the course or
    program, that indicates the individual completed any of
    the following:
    a. The hunter education program established under s.
    29.591 or a substantially similar program
    that is established
    by another state, country, or province and that is
    recognized by the department of natural resources.

  14. #14
    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Not up on the DoJ site yet? I can't get at that link above......firewall issues.
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    Phone call to DOJ

    I just got off the phone with the DOJ. They explained to me that the emergency rules have been sent to the Governor and they have not been signed yet. So what we have seen so far is not in effect yet. Now lets see if the Governor has the backbone to do the right thing.

  16. #16
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul
    The rules state that the hunters safety class certificate is accepted with no hour minimum and no face to face requirement.
    Not that I disagree with you about HS, Paul, but the law didn't say anything about minimum hours or FTF requirement for any other training, either.

  17. #17
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kemo View Post
    I just got off the phone with the DOJ. They explained to me that the emergency rules have been sent to the Governor and they have not been signed yet. So what we have seen so far is not in effect yet. Now lets see if the Governor has the backbone to do the right thing.
    Not defending, just informing:


    I believe the Governor has to sign or veto the whole thing as a package. If it gets sent back, no November 1 applications, I would believe.

  18. #18
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Not that I disagree with you about HS, Paul, but the law didn't say anything about minimum hours or FTF requirement for any other training, either.
    I am just quoting the rules.

  19. #19
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Contact Gov. Walker!!

    govgeneral@wisconsin.gov
    Phone (608) 266-1212

    Governor Scott Walker
    115 East Capitol
    Madison, WI
    53702

  20. #20
    Regular Member Trip20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    ...the law didn't say anything about minimum hours or FTF requirement for any other training, either.
    True, but the law specifically calls out 29.591 as qualification for the training requirement.

  21. #21
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    Vicki McKenna is talking about this right now.

    http://www.iheart.com/#/live/4245/?autoplay=true
    Last edited by bmwguy11; 10-13-2011 at 11:22 AM.

  22. #22
    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Not defending, just informing:


    I believe the Governor has to sign or veto the whole thing as a package. If it gets sent back, no November 1 applications, I would believe.

    Could not complying with the Nov 1 deadline result in a lawsuit also?

  23. #23
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Snip....

    Page 18 /187 - 193 (h)... A copy of a current or expired license held by the applicant indicating that the applicant is or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state, in another state, or in a county or municipality of this state or of another state, provided that the current or expired license has not been revoked for cause. The copy of the current or expired license must be accompanied by the applicant’s signed affirmation that the current or expired license has not been revoked for cause. This affirmation shall be submitted on an affirmation form that shall be prepared by the department and made available to the public on the department’s Internet site.
    It looks like the Utah Permit will be good to use
    IF... "The copy of the current or expired license must be accompanied by the applicant’s signed affirmation that the current or expired license has not been revoked for cause. This affirmation shall be submitted on an affirmation form that shall be prepared by the department and made available to the public on the department’s Internet site"...
    So now I need to get the application form AND an AFFIRMANTION FORM available on the DOJ Website...

    Also looking at time frames involved maybe the Nov. 1 meet at the DOJ office could turn from a "Hand In Application" event to a "Protest The DOJ's Emergency Rules" event... To be clear... If the applications are not going to be available on Nov. 1, as I have the means for only 1 trip in the near future, I will postpone my trip until the applications do become available...

    Just sayin....

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 10-13-2011 at 11:55 AM.
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  24. #24
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    Could not complying with the Nov 1 deadline result in a lawsuit also?
    Snip...

    FINDING OF EMERGENCY RULES

    Under section 101 of 2011 Wis. Act 35, most of the provisions of that Act including the provisions governing the licensing and certification processes covered by the rules proposed here and the provisions authorizing the carrying of a concealed weapon by the holder of a license, an out-of-state license, or a certification card will have an effective date of November 1, 2011. In particular, s. 175.60(9), Stats., will require DOJ to begin receiving and processing license applications and issuing or denying licenses as soon as that provision takes effect onNovember 1, 2011.

    The Legislature has thus determined that the public welfare requires the licensing system to take effect on November 1, 2011. DOJ cannot comply with the requirements of s. 175.60(9), Stats., and related statutory requirements until it has in effect administrative rules establishing the procedures and standards that will govern DOJ’s enforcement and administration of those requirements. It follows that, in order for DOJ to meet its statutory duties that take effect on November 1, 2011, it must complete the promulgation of such administrative rules prior to that date. Under the non-emergency rulemaking procedures of ch. 227, Stats., before the proposed rules could be promulgated, numerous notice, hearing, and publication requirements would have to be fulfilled including, but not limited to a public hearing on the proposed rules, preparation of a detailed report including a summary of public comments and DOJ’s responses to those comments, and legislative review of the proposed rules. DOJ has determined that it is impossible for all of the required steps in that non-emergency rulemaking process to be completed by November 1, 2011. Only if DOJ utilizes the emergency rulemaking procedures of 24s. 227.24, Stats., can the requisite rules be promulgated and in effect in time for DOJ to meet its statutory duties that take effect on November 1, 2011. The public welfare thus necessitates that the proposed rules be promulgated as emergency rules under s. 227.24, Stats. [/COLOR]Once the proposed emergency rules have been promulgated, DOJ will promptly follow up with the promulgation of a permanent version of the rules under the full rulemaking
    So they are doing this for the public welfare....????

    WTF....??????????????????

    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 10-13-2011 at 12:28 PM.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    Snip...



    WTF....??????????????????

    Outdoorsman1
    He who sleeps outdoors,

    That section is only justification to use the emergency rule process. The standard wule making process takes many months, at least 6 and they had to do it in 4.

    This just shows how screwed up the red tape is in government.

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