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Thread: Just moved to TN...couple of questions

  1. #1
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    Just moved to TN...couple of questions

    I just moved to middle Tennessee from Kentucky for a new investment, and I have a couple of questions regarding where I can and cannot carry. I know of course about the basics and the change in laws here regarding places serving alcohol, but what about hospitals, public parks, childcare facilities (not including schools), etc. Also, what is the policy here on private businesses with a "no firearms" or "no weapons" posting on the door? Is this a "must inform" state when confronted during a traffic stop? I am also aware of the law here on long-guns and the empty chamber, but are there any additional bans on certain types of ammo (excluding armor piercing)or ammo capacities? If Tennessee issues a "handgun permit" only and not a "concealed weapons license", what are the laws on pepper spray, tasers, knives, slapjacks, etc.? Any info on these subjects would be of great help. I have considered, even though not required, taking the Tennessee class as well just for the info, but it's hard to find the time. I have a Flordia non-resident permit, but my Kentucky permit will be invalid once I officially move here and change my ID. According to the website, I have six months to obtain a TN permit.

    Any info on any of these subjects is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks

    2A Pride

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    Last edited by 2A Pride; 10-13-2011 at 11:18 AM.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Carry places: no schools (including universities. Driving through is ok, but parking there you'll want to avoid), no places where court proceedings are held (AFAIK you can carry to go pay your vehicle registration, but not to the actual court room), and any place that has has a sign (carries weight if law unfortunately). Everywhere else you're good to go, but almost all hospitals have signs.

    Ammo: I think common sense applies here. We have no restriction on hollow points or anything, but carry with incendiary rounds will be frowned upon

    There is no duty to inform but you do have to show your permit if asked for it. It's tied to your DL# so if you're at a traffic stop the cop will know you have a HCP and it's illegal for you not to have it on you when carrying. So if you're ever detained the cop is eventually going to find out, so it makes sense to inform early.
    Last edited by SovereignAxe; 10-13-2011 at 11:47 AM.
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    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    There are basically 5 places off-limits by law.

    39-17-1306 Any room where a judicial proceeding is taking place. (Doesn't mean the whole court house or even the courtroom if no judicial proceedings are going on, could mean a hospital room if a proceeding was taking place in there at the time.)

    39-17-1309 Schools. There are some "defenses" listed in 39-17-1310

    39-17-1311 Some local parks. State and National Park ok. State parks may have signs that say no weapons, but they do not apply to those with a carry permit. Local parks are legal by default, but a city or county can pass a resolution to prohibit carry. If they do this, they are supposed to post specific signs. But the AG has said someone could still be charged even if signs aren't posted.

    39-16-201 Any Penal institution.

    39-17-1359 Any private or public property owner can post a sign to prohibit carry. If the sign meet the qualifications of 39-17-1359 it is a violation of the law to carry past it.

    http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/tncode/

    TN is not a must inform state.

    No Restrictions on Ammo

    The HCP is good for handguns only. Peppery Spray and Tasers are not addressed in TN law...so AFAIK there is no law against carry of them. A knife with a blade under 4" is legal. (Except switch blades). Clubs/slapjacks/etc... are illegal 39-17-1307. There is a defense to the carry of a club/baton (39-17-1308) if you have been trained in the use of it by someone certified to teach such class.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallguy View Post
    The HCP is good for handguns only. Peppery Spray and Tasers are not addressed in TN law...so AFAIK there is no law against carry of them. A knife with a blade under 4" is legal. (Except switch blades). Clubs/slapjacks/etc... are illegal 39-17-1307. There is a defense to the carry of a club/baton (39-17-1308) if you have been trained in the use of it by someone certified to teach such class.
    I just want to point out that these are the laws that pertain to the personal carry of weapons. Job related carry is covered by different sets of laws, if you need to carry any weapon as a condition of work, please check the laws that apply.

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    Thanks for the help guys.

    I really appreciate it.

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    Switchblades, kubatons, brass knucks, and basically any instrument that's sole purpose is to inflict serious bodily harm is covered under 39-17-1302. The unlawful carry w/intent to go armed under TCA 39-17-1307 specifically outlines firearms, clubs, and knives with a blade length over 4".

    Fallguy covered it pretty well.

    As the others have mentioned there's no obligation to inform a LEO about your permit, but when we run your DL we will know regardless. I think it's a nice courtesy to let the officer know you are carrying during a stop. Some on this forum would disagree because of the possibility the officer will act like an a** and/or disarm you during the stop. I think it's rare. I've dealt with dozens of permit holders during traffic stops and I have yet to find a reason to move the gun from where it is, whether on your hip or somewhere else within reach. Just keep in mind that if the officer can articulate a safety concern he may disarm you and has a right to under TN law. Whether you believe he has a reason or not, never get confrontational or refuse any of his commands. If he's out of line deal with it after the stop/interaction through a written complaint and follow up.

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    Thanks SgtScott31.

    I do choose to always inform during a traffic stop (I almost never get stopped though), I was just curious as to the actual law here. The only time I would not comply 100% with an officer's request is if asked to run the numbers on my gun. I have a thread about this from a month and a half ago or so in Kentucky. There is no reason to suspect someone with a permit would be in possession of a stolen firearm during a routine traffic stop. But if the officer did insist (in my case he was very courteous and he didn't), I would ask to be placed in his car while he retrieved my firearm from its location. No matter what, even under officer request, I refuse to EVER EVER EVER reach for a loaded firearm during an encounter with law enforcement. I've never spoken with an officer who didn't agree that this would be a reasonable request on my part. Thanks for the info and for your service to the public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtScott31 View Post
    As the others have mentioned there's no obligation to inform a LEO about your permit, but when we run your DL we will know regardless.
    Isn't that only true for TN DLs and HCPs?

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtScott31 View Post
    I think it's a nice courtesy to let the officer know you are carrying during a stop. Some on this forum would disagree because of the possibility the officer will act like an a** and/or disarm you during the stop. I think it's rare. I've dealt with dozens of permit holders during traffic stops and I have yet to find a reason to move the gun from where it is, whether on your hip or somewhere else within reach. Just keep in mind that if the officer can articulate a safety concern he may disarm you and has a right to under TN law. Whether you believe he has a reason or not, never get confrontational or refuse any of his commands. If he's out of line deal with it after the stop/interaction through a written complaint and follow up.
    While a cop acting like an asshat in TN is fairly rare, it does happen and I advise against informing unless you must get required documentation and the firearm is very close.

    I dispute that police officers have a RIGHT to disarm any person. They have AUTHORITY (quite different than a right) to disarm a person who they reasonably believe is a danger to themselves, the officer or others.

    I do agree about not being confrontational, but you must also understand that bad cops will consider you to be confrontational the moment you exercise any of your rights. During a traffic stop, plainly state that you will exercise your right to remain silent, hand over required documentation. If asked to exit your vehicle; roll up windows, lock the doors, and put keys in your pocket. Refuse voluntary searches.

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    Regular Member Fallguy's Avatar
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    You're right in that not all state's carry permits are tied to DL information. But I'm sure their other states besides just TN where it is.

    In fact although I can't remember which one right now, it is simply an endorsement on your DL and not even a separate ID.
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    I do agree about not being confrontational, but you must also understand that bad cops will consider you to be confrontational the moment you exercise any of your rights. During a traffic stop, plainly state that you will exercise your right to remain silent, hand over required documentation. If asked to exit your vehicle; roll up windows, lock the doors, and put keys in your pocket. Refuse voluntary searches.
    To me this just screams confrontation. If an officer asks you out of a vehicle, he has a reason behind it. Regardless if he has a reason or not, the US Supreme Court has ruled that LEOs do not need reasonable suspicion or probable cause to have the driver exit the vehicle during a traffic stop (PA v. Mimms) or his passengers (Maryland v. Wilson). If he plans to search, attempting to roll the windows up and/or lock the doors can possibly lead to an additional charge. A simple furitive movement like reaching under/in between the seat can give the officer enough to conduct a search of the area within reach. The "right to remain silent" is fine and dandy, but the officer has a right to get general information from the driver during a traffic stop. A 5th Amendment Miranda issue is not applicable in this situation. Number one, a traffic stop is not a custodial situation where Miranda applies (also a US Supreme Court ruling). Number two, even if it was custodial, if the officer isn't asking questions that would illicit an incriminating response Miranda still isn't required. I rarely read Miranda to those I arrest or detain. If you want to remain silent that's up to you, but make sure it's not something that is not required under law like license information or something to confirm your identity. If the LEO can't positively ID you, then he can justify taking you to jail rather than a citation and release.

    Not-so-friendly officers are few and far between. Even if they are an a**hole at the front end, causing further problems by possibly refusing commands will only escalate the situation. If he asks to search your vehicle and you refuse that's fine. If he searches anyway, the last thing you would want to do is interfere with it, because you don't know what he knows. I have asked to search when I already had PC to do so. Sometimes I just like to see how the person reacts. I encourage everyone to exercise their rights, but they should also be weary about making ANY assumptions during LEO interaction. That's why I mentioned complying at all times. Case in point, I receive a BOLO on a blue Ford Taurus with a white male who just robbed a gas station. Three minutes later I spot you in your blue Taurus. Although you haven't done anything wrong, you may be stopped, searched, and/or disarmed until my investigation is complete to confirm whether or not you're the guy I'm looking for. Now standing in my shoes how do you think I would react if you're being evasive and/or non-compliant during my questioning/search at 2am in the morning and you're in a vehicle matching the description of a vehicle of a robbery that had occurred moments before? I'm not expecting you to be happy with me or sugar-coat anything, but I do expect you to understand the job I have to do.

    Isn't that only true for TN DLs and HCPs?
    Yes
    Last edited by SgtScott31; 10-22-2011 at 06:04 AM.

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    Regular Member Brimstone's Avatar
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    When I was 19 I was pulled over by a police officer for a traffic stop. I was told to get out of my car and the officer proceeded to do a thorough search of my vehicle. The only "probable cause" I could see for the search was a cooler in the back seat and he was hoping to catch me with some beer. After the stop I went to my court date later and told the story. The cop denied the entire story and called me a liar in court. Unfortunately for him, I was good friends with the judge's son and had known the judge for a long time. I was able to confuse the officer during questioning to the point that it was an easy decision for the judge to take my side and drop the charges. The officer only got a lecture from the judge for violating my rights.

    My case was the exception. What I learned is that they can do whatever they want and make their story fit later. Most of the time they will get the benefit of the doubt in court. Get a decent recording device and use it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brimstone View Post
    When I was 19 I was pulled over by a police officer for a traffic stop. I was told to get out of my car and the officer proceeded to do a thorough search of my vehicle. The only "probable cause" I could see for the search was a cooler in the back seat and he was hoping to catch me with some beer. After the stop I went to my court date later and told the story. The cop denied the entire story and called me a liar in court. Unfortunately for him, I was good friends with the judge's son and had known the judge for a long time. I was able to confuse the officer during questioning to the point that it was an easy decision for the judge to take my side and drop the charges. The officer only got a lecture from the judge for violating my rights.

    My case was the exception. What I learned is that they can do whatever they want and make their story fit later. Most of the time they will get the benefit of the doubt in court. Get a decent recording device and use it.
    The bolded part is the most important. Compared to the hundreds of thousands of legitimate LEO encounters involving traffic stops on a yearly basis, this type of behavior is few and far between. I have no problem with recording devices. I have video & audio to back up my stops as well. Most agencies are going to these standards to make sure officers like the one you ran across are weeded out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtScott31 View Post
    Switchblades, kubatons, brass knucks, and basically any instrument that's sole purpose is to inflict serious bodily harm is covered under 39-17-1302. The unlawful carry w/intent to go armed under TCA 39-17-1307 specifically outlines firearms, clubs, and knives with a blade length over 4".

    Fallguy covered it pretty well.

    As the others have mentioned there's no obligation to inform a LEO about your permit, but when we run your DL we will know regardless. I think it's a nice courtesy to let the officer know you are carrying during a stop. Some on this forum would disagree because of the possibility the officer will act like an a** and/or disarm you during the stop. I think it's rare. I've dealt with dozens of permit holders during traffic stops and I have yet to find a reason to move the gun from where it is, whether on your hip or somewhere else within reach. Just keep in mind that if the officer can articulate a safety concern he may disarm you and has a right to under TN law. Whether you believe he has a reason or not, never get confrontational or refuse any of his commands. If he's out of line deal with it after the stop/interaction through a written complaint and follow up.
    Most of the LEO in TN have thanked me for providing my permit along with my license, often only giving me a warning to slow down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tnhawk View Post
    Most of the LEO in TN have thanked me for providing my permit along with my license, often only giving me a warning to slow down.
    I don't think I have wrote a ticket to one permit holder yet. If they fail to let me know they have a weapon I'm a little peeved, but I'm about to find out when I run the DL anyways. When I come back to the vehicle I ask if they have a weapon on them. If they do I inquire on why they didn't tell me, just for conversation. Obviously you're not required to notify in TN, but most officers will appreciate it.
    Last edited by SgtScott31; 01-03-2012 at 05:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtScott31 View Post
    I don't think I have wrote a ticket to one permit holder yet. If they fail to let me know they have a weapon I'm a little peeved, but I'm about to find out when I run the DL anyways. When I come back to the vehicle I ask if they have a weapon on them. If they do I inquire on why they didn't tell me, just for conversation. Obviously you're not required to notify in TN, but most officers will appreciate it.
    Had a TN DOT officer pull me over in my big truck for an inside right-side rear trailer tire flat. Can't see that tire position from the driver's seat and was unaware of the flat. Glad the officer pulled me over afore the tire shredded and came off the rim. That can be quite dangerous.

    Officer got my documents (DL, vehicle reg and such) and went back to the car to run them. Informed me no ticket coming unless he found something hinky with my docs. On returning docs to me he asked me if I was carrying, I responded that I was and he said I was rude to not inform him as he was going to see the CHP info linked to the DL number anyway. I simply responded that I choose to not inform as there is no statutory complusion to do so. No hystronics or such on either of our parts.

    I am requried to answer truthfully if asked, but not required to volunteer information not specifically requested.

    Officer got that look on his face that people get when they have just heard something they need to think on and told me to flasher my way to the next exit and call a tire service.

    I thought it was a good stop all the way around.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtScott31 View Post
    I don't think I have wrote a ticket to one permit holder yet. If they fail to let me know they have a weapon I'm a little peeved, but I'm about to find out when I run the DL anyways. When I come back to the vehicle I ask if they have a weapon on them. If they do I inquire on why they didn't tell me, just for conversation. Obviously you're not required to notify in TN, but most officers will appreciate it.
    That's why I'll always inform if and when I'm pulled over AND I'm asked for my license, as it's going to come up eventually. But if it's a consentual encounter and I'm CCing, I'm not bringing it up unless it's relevant to our conversation. Having a cop come up to me and say hey and then me saying "I have a gun, btw," sounds a little confrontational.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    That's why I'll always inform if and when I'm pulled over AND I'm asked for my license, as it's going to come up eventually. But if it's a consentual encounter and I'm CCing, I'm not bringing it up unless it's relevant to our conversation. Having a cop come up to me and say hey and then me saying "I have a gun, btw," sounds a little confrontational.
    Hahaha, that's the first thing out of my mouth when I'm stopped. I don't think letting him know you have a gun is confrontational. I would have handled it a little different than plugpenny mentioned in his post. You have to realize that most people not volunteering that information to us have a reason. In my opinion as a guy that makes a lot of traffic stops, I usually feel that those who bring up the fact they're carrying within the first few seconds of our encounter are wanting to help me out and give me a heads up. What's the worst that's going to happen? Me disarm you? I guess that could happen and you would probably be POd about it, but I have yet to disarm one that was carrying legally after 10 years on the job. When I say that, the guy that I DID disarm had the smell of weed in his car and turned out the gun in his vehicle had a filed serial number. Doh!

    I usually just thank the holder for letting me know and send him on his way. I don't write tickets much unless the offense is pretty serious.
    Last edited by SgtScott31; 01-13-2012 at 03:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtScott31 View Post
    I don't think I have wrote a ticket to one permit holder yet. If they fail to let me know they have a weapon I'm a little peeved, but I'm about to find out when I run the DL anyways. When I come back to the vehicle I ask if they have a weapon on them. If they do I inquire on why they didn't tell me, just for conversation. Obviously you're not required to notify in TN, but most officers will appreciate it.
    Why would you be a little peeved? If a person's "file" says they have a firearm license, wouldn't that mean that they aren't crazy, they're a lawabiding citizen, et cetera? Shouldn't that cause you to be more comfortable around that person than say someon who didn't have a permit listed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SgtScott31 View Post
    Hahaha, that's the first thing out of my mouth when I'm stopped. I don't think letting him know you have a gun is confrontational. I would have handled it a little different than plugpenny mentioned in his post. You have to realize that most people not volunteering that information to us have a reason. In my opinion as a guy that makes a lot of traffic stops, I usually feel that those who bring up the fact they're carrying within the first few seconds of our encounter are wanting to help me out and give me a heads up. What's the worst that's going to happen? Me disarm you? I guess that could happen and you would probably be POd about it, but I have yet to disarm one that was carrying legally after 10 years on the job. When I say that, the guy that I DID disarm had the smell of weed in his car and turned out the gun in his vehicle had a filed serial number. Doh!

    I usually just thank the holder for letting me know and send him on his way. I don't write tickets much unless the offense is pretty serious.
    So if I'm legally permitted to carry in Tennessee and I don't tell you on initial contact that I have a firearm with me, I'm basically trying to hide something by not telling you? You have got to have some trust in the good guys...

  20. #20
    Regular Member HvyMtl's Avatar
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    Just a thought: Never say "gun." People react kinda bad to that word.

    When I am pulled over, I present both id, and state,"I am carrying." This alerts the officer, without throwing a word out there which has bad reactions to.

    I go ahead an let the officer know for a few reasons, 1) If I am upfront with the info, and he does not have to learn the hard way I might be carrying, he may let me off with a warning. 2) If I am upfront with the info, it allows him to make informed decisions, instead of getting stressed after he figures out I am probably armed.

    Oh, and I always put both hands on the top of the steering wheel. This way he can see where they are.

    Remember, Carry Permit Holders have a good reputation of being law abiding. Use this to your benefit.
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