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Thread: Continuing Second Amendment Advocacy Under CPC 26350

  1. #1
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Continuing Second Amendment Advocacy Under CPC 26350

    This new law intends to silence California gunowners. The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence believe they have won by the laws enactment. They believe they have suceeded in getting guns off main street. But, as we all know, this law does nothing of the sort.

    While it regulates the possession of unloaded handguns, it does not impact long guns, loaded handguns, or handguns carried in a locked case.

    What I propose is a practical alternative to UOC of handguns or long guns to cope with the new paradign of PC 26350 and to continue social gatherings just as they have been in the past with our handguns to illustrate a new point for our advesaries. That point is that anyone, almost anywhere might just have a gun with them-legally.

    Instead of openly carrying a firearm, participants would be transporting their handguns to and from their motor vehicles in a secure locked container (LUCC) while enjoying the same venues they enjoyed before the law was enacted. While no one may actually 'see' a firearm, passing out literature promoting our remaining ability to own and transport handguns would still make it known that the new law disarmed no one. Post it on Facebook and invite the Bradys and LCAV and they can obsess about who has the big mean kitten killer.

    Other benefits include;

    *Events may be held almost anywhere- Since locked, cased transport is an exemption to 626.9 you could have your meetup next to a school.
    *Since it isn't obvious that anyone is in possession of a firearm, the contrived probable cause to inspect for loaded condition in 12031 evaporates (Unless you disclose to the police that your container has a firearm in it.)
    *You could use it as a 'shell game' with some participants having cased handguns, while others carry an empty container... or one that has the Constitution opened up to the Forth Amendment.
    *It wouldnt be as necessary to have digital audio/video rolling the whole time. (Though, it would be needed if in the event police violated the 4th, and entertaining to engage the Bradys.)
    * You dont need an event to justify your carry... and youre still just seconds from employing a loaded gun.
    * You dont stir the animus of fellow gunowners.

    Below is the locking container that I got to transport my pistol. It attaches at the belt just like a holster does.
    http://bagmaster.com/cart/products/4...ck%20Large.htm
    There are also fanny packs, handbags, attache' cases, day planners, and other locking containers that are secure enough to meet the exemption.

    Carry on...
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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  2. #2
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    (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
    motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
    the firearm is contained within a locked container.


    If someone stopped to eat, or otherwise stopped moving, would not it be argued by the prosecutor therefore that you are no longer carrying it directly to or from a vehicle for the duration that you stopped? If police they read ahead of time on the forum people saying, "Let's go eat a sandwich at place X while carrying concealed in locked cases," does not that give them probable cause, especially if the police know exactly your username, to come and find you with your locked case and demand a search on probable cause that your case contains a firearm in violation of 12025?


    It seems like you could have two vehicles at some place, and have one vehicle at the far side and one at the close side, and people could walk back and forth between vehicles, I suppose, and never cease to be traveling directly to and from a vehicle, but it seems that many of the venues where it was previously legal to enjoy an activity while carrying unloaded are now effectively gun free zones. I'd be pleased to be wrong.

    Where I see an interesting facet of the law is for openly carried handguns in a locked case.

    26389. Section 26350 does not apply to, or affect, the carrying
    of an unloaded handgun if the handgun is carried either in the locked
    trunk of a motor vehicle or in a locked container.


    There is no requirement that firearm must be concealed by such a case where a locked case is required, and 26389 specifically exempts locked cases from the prohibition on open carry. Therefore, it appears that if you had a translucent locked case, that you would still be allowed to open carry and it could not be determined to be concealed by a rational judge, (if such a thing exists in California.) However, I'm not aware of what containers might exist that would allow for unloaded locked container open carry.

    26350 also may not apply to the Uberti Buntline, because it has an 18 inch barrel and I doubt it is designed to be interchangeable with a smaller one. Use of common language would describe such a gun as a gigantic handgun, but it is not a handgun under the penal code of CA unless if I am mistaken. I'm not sure if such a gun exists, but technically a gun could be much shorter than the buntline and still be legal. [According to my hasty measurements in Gimp, it looks like the Buntline might be around 24 inches long.] A different firearm could theoretically exist with a barrel 2 inches shorter, and the barrel could be in a configuration where the barrel itself extends very nearly to the rear of the firearm and thus you could have a handgun which is barely over 16 inches long in total length, as opposed to 26 inches in order to meet the criteria for a legal rifle that is not an SBR. Such a gun is only 60% as long as a legal rifle, yet would not be a handgun under the CA penal code.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 10-13-2011 at 11:59 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felid`Maximus View Post
    [26350 also may not apply to the Uberti Buntline, because it has an 18 inch barrel and I doubt it is designed to be interchangeable with a smaller one.
    My......That's a big one

  4. #4
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felid`Maximus View Post
    (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
    motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
    the firearm is contained within a locked container.


    If someone stopped to eat, or otherwise stopped moving, would not it be argued by the prosecutor therefore that you are no longer carrying it directly to or from a vehicle for the duration that you stopped?
    Is going to purchase a sandwich for consumption a lawful purpose?
    Are you not carrying directly from any motor vehicle into a sandwich shop for a lawful purpose?
    Are you not carrying directly to any motor vehicle from a sandwich shop for a lawful purpose?

    The proposed arguement would negate the ability to do something as simple as take the weapon to a gunsmith (which is addressed by 12026.2 (a)(5), which does not require a locked case to do.) Since these are seperate lists of exemptions to 12025, I dont think it is likely that the legislature intended for one set of exemptions to cancel out or overide the other and it would be pretty tough to establish that it could or should.

    12026.1(a)(2) = 12025(f) = no violation of 12025
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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  5. #5
    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    Is going to purchase a sandwich for consumption a lawful purpose?
    Are you not carrying directly from any motor vehicle into a sandwich shop for a lawful purpose?
    Are you not carrying directly to any motor vehicle from a sandwich shop for a lawful purpose?
    You'd probably do well to pull up all the committee meetings and read what the intent of the legislature was at the time. That might figure prominently in your defense, or the prosecutions case.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    Is going to purchase a sandwich for consumption a lawful purpose?
    Are you not carrying directly from any motor vehicle into a sandwich shop for a lawful purpose?
    Are you not carrying directly to any motor vehicle from a sandwich shop for a lawful purpose?

    The proposed arguement would negate the ability to do something as simple as take the weapon to a gunsmith (which is addressed by 12026.2 (a)(5), which does not require a locked case to do.) Since these are seperate lists of exemptions to 12025, I dont think it is likely that the legislature intended for one set of exemptions to cancel out or overide the other and it would be pretty tough to establish that it could or should.

    12026.1(a)(2) = 12025(f) = no violation of 12025
    If you simply look at the actual language it indicates that the firearm is being carried to or from the motor vehicle for a lawful purpose. In other words the reason for carrying the gun to the car is so that you can use the gun for a lawful purpose. It is not saying that so long as whatever you are doing is lawful you can do it while carrying a gun to or from a motor vehicle.

  7. #7
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Decoligny View Post
    If you simply look at the actual language it indicates that the firearm is being carried to or from the motor vehicle for a lawful purpose. In other words the reason for carrying the gun to the car is so that you can use the gun for a lawful purpose. It is not saying that so long as whatever you are doing is lawful you can do it while carrying a gun to or from a motor vehicle.
    The penal code says absolutely nothing about using the firearm or your reason for transporting it. It says 'any lawful purpose'. This does not exclude transporting the handgun to any destination or limit the reason one might transport a firearm to anything other than legal purposes.

    Check out subsection (b);

    (b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
    otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
    or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
    accordance with this chapter.
    In other words, I can take my pistol with me for a sandwich. The penal code doesnt say that I can't.

    BUT, I do need a motor vehicle (doesnt even need to be mine, actually) in conjunction with this form of transportation and I need to be going 'to' it or 'from' it for any lawful purpose.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    The penal code says absolutely nothing about using the firearm or your reason for transporting it. It says 'any lawful purpose'. This does not exclude transporting the handgun to any destination or limit the reason one might transport a firearm to anything other than legal purposes.
    It doesn't say you can do anything other than transport it directly to and from the place.... Transporting directly from your vehicle to your vehicle would seem legal, but if you spend most of the journey on a side quest, are you transporting directly from one place to another or might the transportation be deemed indirect?

    Getting a sandwich is a lawful purpose... but is carrying a concealed weapon absent direct transportation a lawful purpose?

    The proposed arguement would negate the ability to do something as simple as take the weapon to a gunsmith (which is addressed by 12026.2 (a)(5), which does not require a locked case to do.)
    I'm not sure it would or not. Maybe. 12026.2 allows for the transportation directly to the gunsmith for the purpose of repair, but then once you drop it off there the burden would be on him to make sure he is following 12025, etc.

    12026.2(a)(5) allows for
    (5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
    directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
    private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
    the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.


    Beware that per 12026.2b all of the exceptions in 12026.2a require that the firearm is in a locked case.

    12026.2b
    (b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a),
    while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be
    unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),
    and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between
    authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
    circumstances.


    [12026.2b clearly applies to 12026.2a, but perhaps not to 12026.1 which allows transport directly to or from a vehicle, so the wording as far the deviations may not apply 12026.1 but the word "direct" is still used in 12026.1]
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 10-14-2011 at 12:52 PM.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Condition Three:

    I enjoyed reading your post, and feel you may be onto something good with your proposition.

    Here's how I open carry in Mississippi, and no one has ever given me a second look when I'm out in public.








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    While that is a fine way to carry that pistol..it isn't really considered "open carry" if the gun in concealed.

    Carry that gun in that fashion here in CA , and it would get you arrested for carrying a concealed firearm....

  11. #11
    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Yes, technically, it is a concealed carry method...but it is a good feeling to hang that pouch on my belt for "God and everybody" to see; yet it draws absolutely no attention to the fact I'm carrying a loaded handgun for self defense.

    Also, I do have Mississippi Firearms Permit which allows me to legally carry concealed.
    Last edited by MilProGuy; 10-14-2011 at 01:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    You'd probably do well to pull up all the committee meetings and read what the intent of the legislature was at the time. That might figure prominently in your defense, or the prosecutions case.
    hey Save Our State,

    A meet-up is a 1A protected activity; meet-ups are political speech. We know that the CHP tolerates guns on Capitol grounds when a permitted 2A rally is underway even though it is illegal, because the Capital is a State Park.

    Question: Is a meet-up a legal activity (per 26350) for gun posession as long as the gun is LUCC?

    markm

  13. #13
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    You seem determined to make the point that if I transport my pistol in a locked container and deviate from carrying directly to or directly from a motor vehicle that I would be in violation of 12025, a misdemeanor in California.

    Even if that is 100% accurate as it is enforced by police, just how is that ascertained by police without a confession?
    I contend that the integral component of the exemption is proximity to a motor vehicle, not whether you happened to be wandering around or loitering at your destination.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
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    The pouch that Milproguy has, if lockable, would work great. The one C-3 post is basically the same pouch, but has the means to lock it.

    CA penal codes DO NOT make anything LEGAL. It states what is ILLEGAL to do. Just because it does not say you CAN do something, does not mean that you can not do it.

    Where in the code does it say, 'you can legally tell a person to suck eggs'? It doesn't, however, until a law is make that says you can not tell someone to 'suck eggs', you are free to do it it to anyone.

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    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    You seem determined to make the point that if I transport my pistol in a locked container and deviate from carrying directly to or directly from a motor vehicle that I would be in violation of 12025, a misdemeanor in California.

    Even if that is 100% accurate as it is enforced by police, just how is that ascertained by police without a confession?
    I contend that the integral component of the exemption is proximity to a motor vehicle, not whether you happened to be wandering around or loitering at your destination.
    He's also making the common mistake of thinking 12026, 12026.1, 12026.2, 12027 intermingle with each other. As I know you are well aware C3; these exemptions are independent of each other (unless specifically stated otherwise)

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    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    hey Save Our State,

    A meet-up is a 1A protected activity; meet-ups are political speech. We know that the CHP tolerates guns on Capitol grounds when a permitted 2A rally is underway even though it is illegal, because the Capital is a State Park.

    Question: Is a meet-up a legal activity (per 26350) for gun posession as long as the gun is LUCC?

    markm
    I may be missing your intent here, but to address the issue of guns allowed at the capitol:
    there have been several events organized by auxillary organizations to fire gun salutes for the dead. they didn't involve handguns, but the question seemed aimed at guns being completely prohibited on the capitol grounds. They are, but it is evident you can get a permit to do so for a specific event.
    Whether that would be extended to an educational program event is unclear, but I could check into it, as I communicate with the events officer often. There might be one catch, and that's if this is one of the activities that requires permission from the governor. some things such as bringing a vehicle upon the grounds require that authorization specifically by executive order. We asked for that twice for our mobile billboard, and the officer got back and said we should consider that request plan B...and that was Arnold, not anti-gun Brown

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    Quote Originally Posted by Save Our State View Post
    I may be missing your intent here, but to address the issue of guns allowed at the capitol:
    there have been several events organized by auxillary organizations to fire gun salutes for the dead. they didn't involve handguns, but the question seemed aimed at guns being completely prohibited on the capitol grounds. They are, but it is evident you can get a permit to do so for a specific event.
    Whether that would be extended to an educational program event is unclear, but I could check into it, as I communicate with the events officer often. There might be one catch, and that's if this is one of the activities that requires permission from the governor. some things such as bringing a vehicle upon the grounds require that authorization specifically by executive order. We asked for that twice for our mobile billboard, and the officer got back and said we should consider that request plan B...and that was Arnold, not anti-gun Brown
    Save our State,

    I am sorry that I did not make my point well.

    1) Meet-ups at Starbucks are not for self defense; they are political rallies.
    2) UOC is not viable as a self defense tool because if you have time to load your weapon, you have time to leave the seen (at least for the most part).

    Therefore, under 1A protections, LUCCing your gun at a political 2A meet-up rally is a lawful use of your LUCC man-purse, whether your handgun is inside or not. My thought here is probably good for a positive defense at trial, and maybe not much more, until a legal precedent is set.

    markm

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjones View Post
    He's also making the common mistake of thinking 12026, 12026.1, 12026.2, 12027 intermingle with each other. As I know you are well aware C3; these exemptions are independent of each other (unless specifically stated otherwise)
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you are referring to me. Where is it that I am confusing the statutes to intermingle with each other? C3 says my interpretation that 12026 would cause the others to cancel out, but I'm unsure where he comes to that conclusion unless if he is suggesting that the similarity in wording between the independent statutes being construed as I was interpreting the provision for transport between vehicles would make the other exceptions not valid.

    I make no claim that failure to transport directly to or from a vehicle would nullify other exceptions. Unlike the specific exemption for bringing a firearm to a gunsmith there is no separate exemption for carrying at a sandwich shop, so the entirety of the defense lies in the ability to transport directly to or from a vehicle as there are no other applicable exceptions in the specific instance of the sandwhich venue rendevous. At least, there is no other applicable exception that has been discussed thus far or that I am aware of.

    (Of course one could arguing that the statute itself is invalid as an excercise of the 1st amendment, or 2nd amendment. Or you could go for unenforceability on 4th amendment grounds. On 4th amendment grounds, one could equally have a sack of cocaine in a locked case and get off without penalty under such a defense, so long as probable cause for a search did not exist... but that doesn't mean the cocaine was legal, it just means that they can't convict you for it if they don't discover it, and that they are limited in their power to search.)

    It could very well be that I'm confusing something somewhere, but in reading 12026 by itself, 12026.1 by itself, 12026.2 by itself, and 12027 by itself, I still lack confidence in the legality of LUCC in general, even if at some point in time one left a vehicle. There are a lot of exceptions, but still, 12025 is a sweeping ban on concealed carry and one must find an applicable exception to 12025 somewhere for it to not apply. The one in question on this thread, the transport directly to and from a vehicle is a promising one, but the question hinges upon whether it is limited in scope to the direct transport itself or if it would allow one to LUCC at a place while doing any task for any duration, so long as the person doing so first came from a vehicle.

    If any time you came from or to a vehicle 12026 applied, would it work if you got in your car in your garage, then walked around town for 18 hours stopping at many places and doing many things, (all otherwise lawful, not counting 12025 which we are hoping this provision will exempt you from), and then returned directly to the car in your garage at the end of the day? If so, that would be very cool. I'm just afraid that in court, the exemption might be narrowly construed to be less protective than we would like.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 10-14-2011 at 02:33 PM.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkBofRAdvocate View Post
    Save our State,

    I am sorry that I did not make my point well.

    1) Meet-ups at Starbucks are not for self defense; they are political rallies.
    2) UOC is not viable as a self defense tool because if you have time to load your weapon, you have time to leave the seen (at least for the most part).

    Therefore, under 1A protections, LUCCing your gun at a political 2A meet-up rally is a lawful use of your LUCC man-purse, whether your handgun is inside or not. My thought here is probably good for a positive defense at trial, and maybe not much more, until a legal precedent is set.

    markm
    No, I don't think that would survive a weak legal challenge, which would be about all any of us could afford. Lots of prohibited items still have advocacy events without the use of the prohibited item. That would probably be the court's position. I'm not sure, but there may already be an exemption for that activity in the PC, so you might look at it

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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    Condition Three:

    I enjoyed reading your post, and feel you may be onto something good with your proposition.

    Here's how I open carry in Mississippi, and no one has ever given me a second look when I'm out in public.







    VERY interesting item for CC when deemed necessary. Would you care to share with us where you purchased that pouch?

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    When looking through the text of AB144 as enrolled, do the definitions (such as the word "handgun") in 12001 apply I wonder since 26350 is not part of the same title? I'm thinking they still should.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 10-16-2011 at 01:08 PM.

  22. #22
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    As evidenced by the off topic discussion as to whether LUCC is legal or not, instead of making it a practical protest event, am I also to assume that there are none interested in advancing this concept in the urban areas where this would be most useful?
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


    Support the 2A in California - Shop Amazon for any item and up to 15% of all purchases go back to the Calguns Foundation. Enter through either of the following links
    www.calgunsfoundation.org/amazon
    www.shop42a.com

  23. #23
    Regular Member Save Our State's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    As evidenced by the off topic discussion as to whether LUCC is legal or not, instead of making it a practical protest event, am I also to assume that there are none interested in advancing this concept in the urban areas where this would be most useful?
    I would do it, just because it's you, and you have always went out of your way to keep the dream alive. I'm just too damn poor to consider a new addition to the firearms locker right now. But....You know me, and I've always been a resourceful type, so I'll try and do a home-made one and at least give it a go.

  24. #24
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    I would like to add that any numerably measurable event should include some that have empty or alternate items in their cases to keep the government honest.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConditionThree View Post
    This new law intends to silence California gunowners. The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence believe they have won by the laws enactment. They believe they have suceeded in getting guns off main street. But, as we all know, this law does nothing of the sort.

    While it regulates the possession of unloaded handguns, it does not impact long guns, loaded handguns, or handguns carried in a locked case.

    What I propose is a practical alternative to UOC of handguns or long guns to cope with the new paradign of PC 26350 and to continue social gatherings just as they have been in the past with our handguns to illustrate a new point for our advesaries. That point is that anyone, almost anywhere might just have a gun with them-legally.

    Instead of openly carrying a firearm, participants would be transporting their handguns to and from their motor vehicles in a secure locked container (LUCC) while enjoying the same venues they enjoyed before the law was enacted. While no one may actually 'see' a firearm, passing out literature promoting our remaining ability to own and transport handguns would still make it known that the new law disarmed no one. Post it on Facebook and invite the Bradys and LCAV and they can obsess about who has the big mean kitten killer.

    Other benefits include;

    *Events may be held almost anywhere- Since locked, cased transport is an exemption to 626.9 you could have your meetup next to a school.
    *Since it isn't obvious that anyone is in possession of a firearm, the contrived probable cause to inspect for loaded condition in 12031 evaporates (Unless you disclose to the police that your container has a firearm in it.)
    *You could use it as a 'shell game' with some participants having cased handguns, while others carry an empty container... or one that has the Constitution opened up to the Forth Amendment.
    *It wouldnt be as necessary to have digital audio/video rolling the whole time. (Though, it would be needed if in the event police violated the 4th, and entertaining to engage the Bradys.)
    * You dont need an event to justify your carry... and youre still just seconds from employing a loaded gun.
    * You dont stir the animus of fellow gunowners.

    Below is the locking container that I got to transport my pistol. It attaches at the belt just like a holster does.
    http://bagmaster.com/cart/products/4...ck%20Large.htm
    There are also fanny packs, handbags, attache' cases, day planners, and other locking containers that are secure enough to meet the exemption.

    Carry on...

    I have and will continue to carry in whatever form is legal to me...be that LOC, where allowed. UOC while going to or returning from any of my hunting expeditions, and possibly engaging in LGUOC (day trips to National parks seem like an excellent area to stretch my LGUOC legs). For the winter time my Mossberg 500 with a pistol grip under a long coat seems like a wonderful legal (barrels over 16" cant be considered concealed) idea!

    I'm with you on the LUCC, the way I see it is, if I am walking directly from my vehicle to obtain a sandwhich, and then return directly to my vehicle from said sandwich shop I would be within my right to have an unloaded concealed handgun in a locked container on my person. Its legal to posses said firearm in the vehicle, its a legal reason to enter a sandwhich shop, I do not see how it wouldn't be legal to have said firearm on my person, rather than leave a firearm unattended in my vehicle.

    Although in the end, I guess only time will tell if some LUCC cases start dropping into the legal pipeline, and we see which way things are interpreted by the judges.

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