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Thread: Another deadly taser incident

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    Campaign Veteran Verd's Avatar
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    Another deadly taser incident

    Camden County sheriff's deputies used an electric stun gun on a man who forced his way into a home and fought with the resident. That man than died after he was put in handcuffs.
    http://www.ky3.com/videobeta/6fa47b5...-being-Tasered

    It seems that taser deaths are on the rise, which could be that officers are being pressured to use tasers more often or if there is not enough information done of the effects of tasers in regards to people on verious drugs and/or substances.

    EDIT: posted the wrong link the first time
    Last edited by Verd; 10-16-2011 at 03:50 AM.
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    um, this video is about a bad ass old lady putting a .357 into a home intruder O_o cool story though.
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    Campaign Veteran Verd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schlitz View Post
    um, this video is about a bad ass old lady putting a .357 into a home intruder O_o cool story though.
    Whoops!

    It's fixed now. And here's the link to the story about the woman: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...oots-a-burgler!
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    Regular Member Morbidph8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verd View Post
    which could be that officers are being pressured to use tasers more
    Im not sure if I like LEO having tasers. I've been watching the show COPS since I was a kid. If you watch any of the newer episodes since thew taser was released. The LEO's seems way to quick to use them. Don't put your hands up, get tased. Wont shut up, get tased. Turn to run get tased. Back in the day, the criminal had to escalate the act to a point to be hit with a club, or get shot. Now do anything the cop does not like get tased. IDK maybe it's better for the criminals? Not sure how to feel about it really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morbidph8 View Post
    Im not sure if I like LEO having tasers. I've been watching the show COPS since I was a kid. If you watch any of the newer episodes since thew taser was released. The LEO's seems way to quick to use them. Don't put your hands up, get tased. Wont shut up, get tased. Turn to run get tased. Back in the day, the criminal had to escalate the act to a point to be hit with a club, or get shot. Now do anything the cop does not like get tased. IDK maybe it's better for the criminals? Not sure how to feel about it really.
    I wanna be a cop when I grow up Doe's this taser stuff mean I don't have to do all the exercise and police academy stuff? :B

    Reminds me of an old sheriff who's motto was known to the public; "I'd rather shoot than chase" Makes sense... right? :B
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    My bet is that when the autopsy is concluded it will be found that the death was caused by the excess of drugs in their system rather than the actual taze.

    I had to "take a hit" to get certified and while it locks you up, as soon as you are off, your whole body is thankful that it is done. No lasting effects.
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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Drugs or alcohol or no drugs or alcohol, anytime you pass a voltage through a human body, you risk interrupting the heart's rhythm. It may be that these people who have died had a hidden heart defect, but, had they not been subjected to the high voltage, they might have lived for many years without ever knowing they had the defect.

    There is a very good reason that they teach electonics techs to troubleshoot with their left hand in their pocket. You do not want any accidental contact with a live circuit to pass voltage through the heart.

    Personally, I would like to see tasers completely banned and some other less-than-lethal alternative produced. As far as I am concerned, getting tased carries the same risk as getting shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Drugs or alcohol or no drugs or alcohol, anytime you pass a voltage through a human body, you risk interrupting the heart's rhythm. It may be that these people who have died had a hidden heart defect, but, had they not been subjected to the high voltage, they might have lived for many years without ever knowing they had the defect.

    There is a very good reason that they teach electonics techs to troubleshoot with their left hand in their pocket. You do not want any accidental contact with a live circuit to pass voltage through the heart.

    Personally, I would like to see tasers completely banned and some other less-than-lethal alternative produced. As far as I am concerned, getting tased carries the same risk as getting shot.
    All of which the officer is able to reliably determine and assess that it is safe to taze a person at instant they have determined to use this level of force against them.

    Agreed a bullet is much more likely to have long lasting effects but for some a tazer is JUST AS LETHAL!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    All of which the officer is able to reliably determine and assess that it is safe to taze a person at instant they have determined to use this level of force against them.

    Agreed a bullet is much more likely to have long lasting effects but for some a tazer is JUST AS LETHAL!
    Oh, no. For some, they just fracture skull or jaw when they hit the pavement, curb, or sidewalk. That's not lethal. Lots of those injuries, if reports are to be believed.

    /sarcasm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morbidph8 View Post
    Im not sure if I like LEO having tasers. I've been watching the show COPS since I was a kid. If you watch any of the newer episodes since thew taser was released. The LEO's seems way to quick to use them. Don't put your hands up, get tased. Wont shut up, get tased. Turn to run get tased. Back in the day, the criminal had to escalate the act to a point to be hit with a club, or get shot. Now do anything the cop does not like get tased. IDK maybe it's better for the criminals? Not sure how to feel about it really.
    The fundamental issue there is a person who is acting in a juvenile manner who is rebelling against the authority figure present -- a police officer -- as if a teenager rebels against his parents. The person being arrested knows how far he can push the police officers before they'll shoot him, so he'll do everything in his power to make life difficult for them because -- until that deadly force line is passed -- he knows they can't shoot him. And he has an incentive not to be shot -- it's very painful and usually deadly.

    The taser gives them an alternative, but yes -- in almost every episode of cops, you see the same thing. "Subject not responding to verbal commands. Tasing!"

    I don't like it any more than you, because there are a few reasonable cases that you see on video that simply become domination, tase, and detain... It's the "kill them all and let god sort them out" "tase them all and let the courts sort it out" approach. Phenominally bad idea when police officers are used as simply goon squads feeding a machine of "justice", like a combine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirbinator View Post
    The fundamental issue there is a person who is acting in a juvenile manner who is rebelling against the authority figure present -- a police officer -- as if a teenager rebels against his parents.
    I'm thinking the issue is more fundamental: police getting to choose their own toys.

    Of course Taser says the weapons are non-lethal. Then, later there has to be some revisions, and now they're called less-lethal.

    Taser has a vested interest in these weapons being adpoted by police, and fights tooth-and-nail against bad PR from deaths and fall injuries. And, some police get to go "Wheeeeee! This is fun! Lets let the perps 'ride the lightning' (police term)"

    Pharmaceutical drugs have to pass all kinds of testing. Food labels are regulated to the nth degree. But, police get to pick their cool toys based on little more than Tasers advertising.

    Instead of calling these things pain-compliance devices, we should just call them what they too often really are used for: electro-torture devices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Drugs or alcohol or no drugs or alcohol, anytime you pass a voltage through a human body, you risk interrupting the heart's rhythm. It may be that these people who have died had a hidden heart defect, but, had they not been subjected to the high voltage, they might have lived for many years without ever knowing they had the defect.

    There is a very good reason that they teach electonics techs to troubleshoot with their left hand in their pocket. You do not want any accidental contact with a live circuit to pass voltage through the heart.

    Personally, I would like to see tasers completely banned and some other less-than-lethal alternative produced. As far as I am concerned, getting tased carries the same risk as getting shot.

    Taser sues the crap out of any coroner who finds that their product killed someone. Taser claims all deaths are from the made up phrase "Excited delirium".

    Eric Balaban of the American Civil Liberties Union argued in 2007 that excited delirium was not recognized by the American Medical Association or the American Psychological Association and that the diagnosis served "as a means of white-washing what may be excessive use of force and inappropriate use of control techniques by officers during an arrest."[5] Melissa Smith of the American Medical Association stated in 2007 that the organization had "no official policy" on the condition.[
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excited_delirium
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    All of which the officer is able to reliably determine and assess that it is safe to taze a person at instant they have determined to use this level of force against them.

    Agreed a bullet is much more likely to have long lasting effects but for some a tazer is JUST AS LETHAL!
    Its like beating you kids. I may not kill them but the effects last a lifetime. Wouldnt you say?

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    Tasers should be outlawed. But they are non-lethal to the people that don't die from them. As are bullets fired from a gun.

    The last one around here was a average size man that was unarmed and running out into traffic. Four LEO decided to tase him because they thought he was a danger to himself. Now he is 6 feet under and not a danger to himself anymore.

    Tasers are unsafe! The families of anyone that dies from a taser should sue the manufacturer, the state, the LEA and the individual officer.
    My son is a LEO and we strongly disagree on this subject.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Procedural change:

    2b. After tasing perp, check perp for life signs and resuscitate as necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluemax View Post
    Tasers should be outlawed. But they are non-lethal to the people that don't die from them. As are bullets fired from a gun.

    The last one around here was a average size man that was unarmed and running out into traffic. Four LEO decided to tase him because they thought he was a danger to himself. Now he is 6 feet under and not a danger to himself anymore.

    Tasers are unsafe! The families of anyone that dies from a taser should sue the manufacturer, the state, the LEA and the individual officer.
    My son is a LEO and we strongly disagree on this subject.
    I bet those are friendly conversations.
    Last edited by flicker; 10-21-2011 at 03:55 AM. Reason: keeping the peace

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Procedural change:

    2b. After tasing perp, check perp for life signs and resuscitate as necessary.
    Unless the cop has an Automatic External Defibrillator in his car, resuscitation is not going to be very effective. From what little I know about medicine and the lot I know about electricity, a jolt that goes across the heart (current path) usually sends the heart into ventricular fibrillation. The heart just sits there and quivers without moving the blood. Without the normal rhythm being restored, death occurs within seconds.

    Taser International can scream "excited delirium" all they want to. First of all, there is no such recognized medical condition and, secondly, every description I've ever read of a taser-induced death seemed, to my untrained brain, to fit the ventricular fibrillation model.

    Think about it: OKBoomer said it "locks you up" when you get hit. I'm taking that to mean your muscles basically freeze and you can't move. What is the heart? A muscle.

    Again, I think these things should be banned and some genius (yes, there are a lot of them out there, some on this forum) should come up with a non-lethal alternative that will both ensure the cop's safety and not cause harm to the detainee.

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    Probability of Kill aka PK

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluemax View Post
    Tasers should be outlawed. But they are non-lethal to the people that don't die from them. As are bullets fired from a gun.
    Ok, Bluemax, it's time you and me and the rest of us who disagree to have a discussion. This one involves probability of kill.

    As I learned the hard way by loosing four good friends over the years who flew the same aircraft I flew into dirt, the PK of dirt/rock/mountain is 0.99997%. That is, if you fly military hardware into the ground, you're dead. If you disagree with this, I have four dead friends who say you're wrong.

    I cannot claim that three rounds from my 9mm fired in self-defense IAW the laws of whatever state I might have been reluctantly forced to take this action would prove lethal. I can claim that since I'm a "fire upon the bad guy until they're fully stopped" sort of guy, they will either be stopped, or it is I who will be dead.

    The last one around here was a average size man that was unarmed and running out into traffic. Four LEO decided to tase him because they thought he was a danger to himself. Now he is 6 feet under and not a danger to himself anymore.
    As a former backup bouncer who has seen a few things here and there go askew, this falls squarely into the category of aided escort into custody. Before this I had no reservations with respect to using tasers. After hearing this, if tasers are killing people, then they're improperly designed or improperly employed.

    Regardless, someone's dead. Someone else is at fault.

    Tasers are unsafe!
    Nah, I was tased once. High Voltage, but restricted amps, thus restricted energy dissipated in the human body. Painful, but not a big deal. It paled in comparison to a "mere" 120-volt household voltage with unrestricted current I experienced in 1986 for a whopping 2 seconds. No restrictions then, and if I'd not been so young, I'd have died.

    The families of anyone that dies from a taser should sue the manufacturer, the state, the LEA and the individual officer.
    My son is a LEO and we strongly disagree on this subject.
    I strongly disagree with you as well. It depends entirely upon what was going on at the time. If a perp is engaging me in armed robbery and threatens me with my life, I live, he's dead, and that's that. Do you want to sue the manufacturer of my firearm, the State of Colorado, the Colorado Springs Police Department, etc.?"

    Not only will most of the officers on the Colorado Springs Springs Police department disagree with you, but most of the Sheriff's deputies in my country would agree with me, as well. They know I'd have taken every precaution available to avoid the situation, but if unavoidable to escape, and if inescapable, to deal with the situation appropriately.

    I don't know if this is what you want, Bluemax, but it appears as if you're gangbusters about outlawing non-lethal force. Since 99.9% of us here advocate using lethal force in response to anti-societal criminal behavior, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

    Just a hunch...
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    Unless the cop has an Automatic External Defibrillator in his car, resuscitation is not going to be very effective. From what little I know about medicine and the lot I know about electricity, a jolt that goes across the heart (current path) usually sends the heart into ventricular fibrillation. The heart just sits there and quivers without moving the blood. Without the normal rhythm being restored, death occurs within seconds.
    That's a worst-case scenario, SFCRetired. If you do nothing, that's what'll happen.

    I spent four years managing pools, and twenty years flying airplanes. I'm not a do-nothing sort of person, nor am I qualified to pronounce death, as I am not a doctor. Until such time as a doctor says "they're dead," I'll continue efforts. It's what I was trained to do. Friend, foe, doesn't matter.

    If you want to sit there and laugh at everything from a nosebleed to full cardiac arrest without helping your fellow man, whether they did you wrong or not, be my guest. I hope you rot in jail for sub-human mindset and actions.

    I am fully human. I will not do that. Ever.

    Again, I think these things should be banned...
    The issue was the cops stood around and did NOTHING to check on the condition of their taseree. They're at fault.

    [quote...and some genius (yes, there are a lot of them out there, some on this forum) should come up with a non-lethal alternative that will both ensure the cop's safety and not cause harm to the detainee.[/QUOTE]

    It's been around for decades. Sticky foam. Sort things out later.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Tasers like guns are not the problem, it's the aggressors who use them so willingly.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    [QUOTE=sudden valley gunner;1631228]Tasers like guns...[/quotes]

    But guns are not tasers.

    ...are not the problem, it's the aggressors who use them so willingly.
    If the need warrents, go for it. If it doesn't, then don't.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=since9;1631238]
    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Tasers like guns...[/quotes]

    But guns are not tasers.



    If the need warrents, go for it. If it doesn't, then don't.
    I understand tasers are not guns...but like knives, rocks , sticks, pepper spray or any other tool used for self defense the inanimate object is not the cause of the problems.

    I totally agree with your last statement, but do feel the men in blue tend to overuse Tasers which is an assault on a person, much like hitting them.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
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    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    You really shouldn't believe what you see on COPS. That show makes me cringe.

    Also, the TASER voltage is high (50,000 volts initial then 1200 volts continuous), but the amperage is almost non-existant (.00053 amps if I recall the instructor correctly). Coupled with that, the charge doesn't actually reach your heart; it's too deep for that. The path of least resistance takes it across your skin and through the top layer of muscle (hence the incapacitating effects). Ventricular fibrillation directly caused by the TASER's discharge has no recorded incidents to my knowledge. Secondary injuries, adrenaline spikes, and the like have been reported but you can't account for what any given person's body chemistry will do since there are no outward signs, and the incident rate is less than 0.5%.

    The parallel between demanding to ban tasers and demanding to ban firearms is disturbing. Punish the misusers of a tool. Do not take a life-saving tool away from those who do not misuse it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluemax View Post
    Tasers should be outlawed. But they are non-lethal to the people that don't die from them. As are bullets fired from a gun.

    The last one around here was a average size man that was unarmed and running out into traffic. Four LEO decided to tase him because they thought he was a danger to himself. Now he is 6 feet under and not a danger to himself anymore.

    Tasers are unsafe! The families of anyone that dies from a taser should sue the manufacturer, the state, the LEA and the individual officer.
    My son is a LEO and we strongly disagree on this subject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivuli View Post
    You really shouldn't believe what you see on COPS. That show makes me cringe.

    Also, the TASER voltage is high (50,000 volts initial then 1200 volts continuous), but the amperage is almost non-existant (.00053 amps if I recall the instructor correctly). Coupled with that, the charge doesn't actually reach your heart; it's too deep for that. The path of least resistance takes it across your skin and through the top layer of muscle (hence the incapacitating effects). Ventricular fibrillation directly caused by the TASER's discharge has no recorded incidents to my knowledge. Secondary injuries, adrenaline spikes, and the like have been reported but you can't account for what any given person's body chemistry will do since there are no outward signs, and the incident rate is less than 0.5%.

    The parallel between demanding to ban tasers and demanding to ban firearms is disturbing. Punish the misusers of a tool. Do not take a life-saving tool away from those who do not misuse it.
    Exactly. We are here in regards to openly carrying firearms and to make firearms more prominent in the public consciousness as something that responsible legal citizens do. Why in the world would we be calling out for the banning of tasers? The problem is that since they are designated as Less Lethal to Non-Lethal, cops are resorting to using them at the drop of the hat, like when someone refuses to do what they say the first time they ask. Similar stories can be seen when the cops carry pepper spray and not tasers. Pepper spray can be deadly to someone who has an allergy to peppers, but some cops use pepper spray (as well as tasers when they are issued them) the moment their authority is questioned or challenged. Luckily for myself (who happens to have a number of allergies), I have not yet seen a video or read a report of someone getting pepper sprayed or tasered due to OC. Seems that since we are armed, it makes those cops who are unhappy with our usage of the 2A less hasty to escalate confrontations.
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