• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Another deadly taser incident

Verd

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
381
Location
Lampe, Missouri, United States
Camden County sheriff's deputies used an electric stun gun on a man who forced his way into a home and fought with the resident. That man than died after he was put in handcuffs.
http://www.ky3.com/videobeta/6fa47b51-c274-4118-acf6-b3f45bad6f6a/News/Man-dies-after-being-Tasered

It seems that taser deaths are on the rise, which could be that officers are being pressured to use tasers more often or if there is not enough information done of the effects of tasers in regards to people on verious drugs and/or substances.

EDIT: posted the wrong link the first time
 
Last edited:

RetiredOC

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
1,561
um, this video is about a bad ass old lady putting a .357 into a home intruder o_O cool story though.
 

Morbidph8

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Messages
98
Location
Apache Junction, AZ
which could be that officers are being pressured to use tasers more

Im not sure if I like LEO having tasers. I've been watching the show COPS since I was a kid. If you watch any of the newer episodes since thew taser was released. The LEO's seems way to quick to use them. Don't put your hands up, get tased. Wont shut up, get tased. Turn to run get tased. Back in the day, the criminal had to escalate the act to a point to be hit with a club, or get shot. Now do anything the cop does not like get tased. IDK maybe it's better for the criminals? Not sure how to feel about it really.
 

DrakeZ07

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2011
Messages
1,080
Location
Lexington, Ky
Im not sure if I like LEO having tasers. I've been watching the show COPS since I was a kid. If you watch any of the newer episodes since thew taser was released. The LEO's seems way to quick to use them. Don't put your hands up, get tased. Wont shut up, get tased. Turn to run get tased. Back in the day, the criminal had to escalate the act to a point to be hit with a club, or get shot. Now do anything the cop does not like get tased. IDK maybe it's better for the criminals? Not sure how to feel about it really.

I wanna be a cop when I grow up :D Doe's this taser stuff mean I don't have to do all the exercise and police academy stuff? :B

Reminds me of an old sheriff who's motto was known to the public; "I'd rather shoot than chase" Makes sense... right? :B
 

okboomer

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2009
Messages
1,164
Location
Oklahoma, USA
My bet is that when the autopsy is concluded it will be found that the death was caused by the excess of drugs in their system rather than the actual taze.

I had to "take a hit" to get certified and while it locks you up, as soon as you are off, your whole body is thankful that it is done. No lasting effects.
 

SFCRetired

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
1,764
Location
Montgomery, Alabama, USA
Drugs or alcohol or no drugs or alcohol, anytime you pass a voltage through a human body, you risk interrupting the heart's rhythm. It may be that these people who have died had a hidden heart defect, but, had they not been subjected to the high voltage, they might have lived for many years without ever knowing they had the defect.

There is a very good reason that they teach electonics techs to troubleshoot with their left hand in their pocket. You do not want any accidental contact with a live circuit to pass voltage through the heart.

Personally, I would like to see tasers completely banned and some other less-than-lethal alternative produced. As far as I am concerned, getting tased carries the same risk as getting shot.
 

JoeSparky

Centurion
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,621
Location
Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
Drugs or alcohol or no drugs or alcohol, anytime you pass a voltage through a human body, you risk interrupting the heart's rhythm. It may be that these people who have died had a hidden heart defect, but, had they not been subjected to the high voltage, they might have lived for many years without ever knowing they had the defect.

There is a very good reason that they teach electonics techs to troubleshoot with their left hand in their pocket. You do not want any accidental contact with a live circuit to pass voltage through the heart.

Personally, I would like to see tasers completely banned and some other less-than-lethal alternative produced. As far as I am concerned, getting tased carries the same risk as getting shot.
All of which the officer is able to reliably determine and assess that it is safe to taze a person at instant they have determined to use this level of force against them.

Agreed a bullet is much more likely to have long lasting effects but for some a tazer is JUST AS LETHAL!
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
All of which the officer is able to reliably determine and assess that it is safe to taze a person at instant they have determined to use this level of force against them.

Agreed a bullet is much more likely to have long lasting effects but for some a tazer is JUST AS LETHAL!

Oh, no. For some, they just fracture skull or jaw when they hit the pavement, curb, or sidewalk. That's not lethal. Lots of those injuries, if reports are to be believed.

/sarcasm
 

Kirbinator

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2010
Messages
903
Location
Middle of the map, Alabama
Im not sure if I like LEO having tasers. I've been watching the show COPS since I was a kid. If you watch any of the newer episodes since thew taser was released. The LEO's seems way to quick to use them. Don't put your hands up, get tased. Wont shut up, get tased. Turn to run get tased. Back in the day, the criminal had to escalate the act to a point to be hit with a club, or get shot. Now do anything the cop does not like get tased. IDK maybe it's better for the criminals? Not sure how to feel about it really.

The fundamental issue there is a person who is acting in a juvenile manner who is rebelling against the authority figure present -- a police officer -- as if a teenager rebels against his parents. The person being arrested knows how far he can push the police officers before they'll shoot him, so he'll do everything in his power to make life difficult for them because -- until that deadly force line is passed -- he knows they can't shoot him. And he has an incentive not to be shot -- it's very painful and usually deadly.

The taser gives them an alternative, but yes -- in almost every episode of cops, you see the same thing. "Subject not responding to verbal commands. Tasing!"

I don't like it any more than you, because there are a few reasonable cases that you see on video that simply become domination, tase, and detain... It's the [strike]"kill them all and let god sort them out"[/strike] "tase them all and let the courts sort it out" approach. Phenominally bad idea when police officers are used as simply goon squads feeding a machine of "justice", like a combine.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
The fundamental issue there is a person who is acting in a juvenile manner who is rebelling against the authority figure present -- a police officer -- as if a teenager rebels against his parents.

I'm thinking the issue is more fundamental: police getting to choose their own toys.

Of course Taser says the weapons are non-lethal. Then, later there has to be some revisions, and now they're called less-lethal.

Taser has a vested interest in these weapons being adpoted by police, and fights tooth-and-nail against bad PR from deaths and fall injuries. And, some police get to go "Wheeeeee! This is fun! Lets let the perps 'ride the lightning' (police term)"

Pharmaceutical drugs have to pass all kinds of testing. Food labels are regulated to the nth degree. But, police get to pick their cool toys based on little more than Tasers advertising.

Instead of calling these things pain-compliance devices, we should just call them what they too often really are used for: electro-torture devices.
 

HandyHamlet

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
2,772
Location
Terra, Sol
Drugs or alcohol or no drugs or alcohol, anytime you pass a voltage through a human body, you risk interrupting the heart's rhythm. It may be that these people who have died had a hidden heart defect, but, had they not been subjected to the high voltage, they might have lived for many years without ever knowing they had the defect.

There is a very good reason that they teach electonics techs to troubleshoot with their left hand in their pocket. You do not want any accidental contact with a live circuit to pass voltage through the heart.

Personally, I would like to see tasers completely banned and some other less-than-lethal alternative produced. As far as I am concerned, getting tased carries the same risk as getting shot.


Taser sues the crap out of any coroner who finds that their product killed someone. Taser claims all deaths are from the made up phrase "Excited delirium".

Eric Balaban of the American Civil Liberties Union argued in 2007 that excited delirium was not recognized by the American Medical Association or the American Psychological Association and that the diagnosis served "as a means of white-washing what may be excessive use of force and inappropriate use of control techniques by officers during an arrest."[5] Melissa Smith of the American Medical Association stated in 2007 that the organization had "no official policy" on the condition.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excited_delirium
 

alispissed

New member
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
50
Location
, ,
All of which the officer is able to reliably determine and assess that it is safe to taze a person at instant they have determined to use this level of force against them.

Agreed a bullet is much more likely to have long lasting effects but for some a tazer is JUST AS LETHAL!

Its like beating you kids. I may not kill them but the effects last a lifetime. Wouldnt you say?
 

Bluemax

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Messages
34
Location
Columbia, Missouri, USA
Tasers should be outlawed. But they are non-lethal to the people that don't die from them. As are bullets fired from a gun.

The last one around here was a average size man that was unarmed and running out into traffic. Four LEO decided to tase him because they thought he was a danger to himself. Now he is 6 feet under and not a danger to himself anymore.

Tasers are unsafe! The families of anyone that dies from a taser should sue the manufacturer, the state, the LEA and the individual officer.
My son is a LEO and we strongly disagree on this subject.
 

alispissed

New member
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
50
Location
, ,
Tasers should be outlawed. But they are non-lethal to the people that don't die from them. As are bullets fired from a gun.

The last one around here was a average size man that was unarmed and running out into traffic. Four LEO decided to tase him because they thought he was a danger to himself. Now he is 6 feet under and not a danger to himself anymore.

Tasers are unsafe! The families of anyone that dies from a taser should sue the manufacturer, the state, the LEA and the individual officer.
My son is a LEO and we strongly disagree on this subject.

I bet those are friendly conversations.
 
Last edited:

SFCRetired

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
1,764
Location
Montgomery, Alabama, USA
Procedural change:

2b. After tasing perp, check perp for life signs and resuscitate as necessary.

Unless the cop has an Automatic External Defibrillator in his car, resuscitation is not going to be very effective. From what little I know about medicine and the lot I know about electricity, a jolt that goes across the heart (current path) usually sends the heart into ventricular fibrillation. The heart just sits there and quivers without moving the blood. Without the normal rhythm being restored, death occurs within seconds.

Taser International can scream "excited delirium" all they want to. First of all, there is no such recognized medical condition and, secondly, every description I've ever read of a taser-induced death seemed, to my untrained brain, to fit the ventricular fibrillation model.

Think about it: OKBoomer said it "locks you up" when you get hit. I'm taking that to mean your muscles basically freeze and you can't move. What is the heart? A muscle.

Again, I think these things should be banned and some genius (yes, there are a lot of them out there, some on this forum) should come up with a non-lethal alternative that will both ensure the cop's safety and not cause harm to the detainee.
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Probability of Kill aka PK

Tasers should be outlawed. But they are non-lethal to the people that don't die from them. As are bullets fired from a gun.

Ok, Bluemax, it's time you and me and the rest of us who disagree to have a discussion. This one involves probability of kill.

As I learned the hard way by loosing four good friends over the years who flew the same aircraft I flew into dirt, the PK of dirt/rock/mountain is 0.99997%. That is, if you fly military hardware into the ground, you're dead. If you disagree with this, I have four dead friends who say you're wrong.

I cannot claim that three rounds from my 9mm fired in self-defense IAW the laws of whatever state I might have been reluctantly forced to take this action would prove lethal. I can claim that since I'm a "fire upon the bad guy until they're fully stopped" sort of guy, they will either be stopped, or it is I who will be dead.

The last one around here was a average size man that was unarmed and running out into traffic. Four LEO decided to tase him because they thought he was a danger to himself. Now he is 6 feet under and not a danger to himself anymore.

As a former backup bouncer who has seen a few things here and there go askew, this falls squarely into the category of aided escort into custody. Before this I had no reservations with respect to using tasers. After hearing this, if tasers are killing people, then they're improperly designed or improperly employed.

Regardless, someone's dead. Someone else is at fault.

Tasers are unsafe!

Nah, I was tased once. High Voltage, but restricted amps, thus restricted energy dissipated in the human body. Painful, but not a big deal. It paled in comparison to a "mere" 120-volt household voltage with unrestricted current I experienced in 1986 for a whopping 2 seconds. No restrictions then, and if I'd not been so young, I'd have died.

The families of anyone that dies from a taser should sue the manufacturer, the state, the LEA and the individual officer.
My son is a LEO and we strongly disagree on this subject.

I strongly disagree with you as well. It depends entirely upon what was going on at the time. If a perp is engaging me in armed robbery and threatens me with my life, I live, he's dead, and that's that. Do you want to sue the manufacturer of my firearm, the State of Colorado, the Colorado Springs Police Department, etc.?"

Not only will most of the officers on the Colorado Springs Springs Police department disagree with you, but most of the Sheriff's deputies in my country would agree with me, as well. They know I'd have taken every precaution available to avoid the situation, but if unavoidable to escape, and if inescapable, to deal with the situation appropriately.

I don't know if this is what you want, Bluemax, but it appears as if you're gangbusters about outlawing non-lethal force. Since 99.9% of us here advocate using lethal force in response to anti-societal criminal behavior, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Just a hunch...
 

since9

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
6,964
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
Unless the cop has an Automatic External Defibrillator in his car, resuscitation is not going to be very effective. From what little I know about medicine and the lot I know about electricity, a jolt that goes across the heart (current path) usually sends the heart into ventricular fibrillation. The heart just sits there and quivers without moving the blood. Without the normal rhythm being restored, death occurs within seconds.

That's a worst-case scenario, SFCRetired. If you do nothing, that's what'll happen.

I spent four years managing pools, and twenty years flying airplanes. I'm not a do-nothing sort of person, nor am I qualified to pronounce death, as I am not a doctor. Until such time as a doctor says "they're dead," I'll continue efforts. It's what I was trained to do. Friend, foe, doesn't matter.

If you want to sit there and laugh at everything from a nosebleed to full cardiac arrest without helping your fellow man, whether they did you wrong or not, be my guest. I hope you rot in jail for sub-human mindset and actions.

I am fully human. I will not do that. Ever.

Again, I think these things should be banned...

The issue was the cops stood around and did NOTHING to check on the condition of their taseree. They're at fault.

[quote...and some genius (yes, there are a lot of them out there, some on this forum) should come up with a non-lethal alternative that will both ensure the cop's safety and not cause harm to the detainee.[/QUOTE]

It's been around for decades. Sticky foam. Sort things out later.
 
Top