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Thread: Gun Talk Radio - Tom Gresham

  1. #1
    Regular Member TigerLily's Avatar
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    Gun Talk Radio - Tom Gresham

    Am I the only nut-job that thinks gun rights supersedes gun training?

    So I was listening to the show today live and decided to call in and talk about my open carry experience here in South Nevada. I thought this person would be more supportive, as he represents himself as a "gun-rights" advocate, but when he found out I haven't taken a defense course and that the only experience I have is former military and shooting out on the range, he quickly cut me off and chastised me. He said training is the RESPONSIBLE thing to do - inferring I was "irresponsible." And that anyone that owns a gun should - at very minimum - take a course that lasts an entire day.

    So I called back and asked to have this note slipped to him: "Should I also take a full day's course to exercise my 1st Amendment rights?"

    He got the msg and asked for people to call in to say whether or not their gun training experience was positive. Of course, he got all sorts of calls - mostly from police officers lauding the merits of training.

    I sent him this email and I'll keep you posted as to if he responds:

    Dear Tom,

    Thanks for taking my call. I'm the open carrier in Las Vegas that has never taken a self-defense course (nor have you convinced me that I should.)

    I understand your position that gun owners should take self-defense classes, but I take great exception to your inference that gun owners who do not take classes are "irresponsible." Your views are very close to that of a "nanny-crat."

    I appreciate that at the end of your show you said that you do not support making classes "mandatory" but boy, you sure do come close to expressing exactly that. No one disagrees that training is usually good, though not ALL training is good. Case in point: Our public school system.

    The training indoctrination that you are preaching I feel is harmful to the 2nd Amendment. Should we go to a class and learn to drive a car from an "expert?" Why sure, if it's possible. If not possible, and we learn our skills by getting a permit and letting daddy teach us on some vacant parking lot - would you consider that driver "irresponsible?" I'd venture to say that more people are killed by car crashes than by guns. And yet, your plea for gun training borders on hysteria.

    I do NOT conceal carry because I do not have a permit - as you know I'd need to take a class to get a conceal permit, and while I don't object to the class itself, I object to needing a permission slip to exercise the 2A. If you need a permit to conceal a gun, then you're not really exercising a right - you're exercising a "privilege" like driving, am I wrong?

    Of course it's your show, and if I want to get my own viewpoints out I should get my own show (and maybe one day I will.) Not everyone carries for self defense. I carry only to exercise my right - and what I have found is that the only people afraid of my gun are criminals and cops.

    I was walking my dogs at 10:30 pm last winter in my neighborhood and a car approached me, rolled down his window and said something. I was on the phone and turned and asked him to repeat himself. He caught a glimpse of my .45 and said, "never mind," as he rolled his window back up and drove off.

    Another time I was detained & put into handcuffs for 56 minutes for videotaping two school cops while open carrying. It is clear in this you-tube, that the cops were not concerned with my gun, they were concerned with my videorecorder. I found out later, that what they were doing to the suspect (a suspect that was already in cuffs and secured in the back seat of a patrol car) was in violation of their own policy - thus, they really, really, really, did not want any evidence of that.

    Here is the youtube of that handcuffing incident: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY4R4hERCaA

    I think encouraging all law-abiding citizens to exercise the 2A is crucial. And I think that having a gun without training is far superior to not having one at all. You know what they say, Rights: Use them or lose them.

    Sincerely,

    TigerLily
    YouTube OC activism vids: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...ature=view_all
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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    TL, more people have been directly and indirectly harmed by "words" than all the guns ever produced. What war has not been started by "words"? I could go on. To back you up, maybe only those who have graduated Journalism school should have the right to make public comments via the airwaves. Of course this would take most of the talk show guys off the air as I can't think of a one who has been schooled in that field.


    TBG
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    I didn't catch your call, but I did catch some of the calls for training.

    I think Tom is right to advocate training. It's something we all need, no matter how much we've had. He's also never supported mandatory training, but he should probably be more explicit about that.

    Tom is a supporter of OC and Constitutional Carry. He's on our side.

    Edit to add: he's also a registered member here on the forum. Maybe he'll chime in on this thread.
    Last edited by KBCraig; 10-17-2011 at 05:29 AM.

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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Hmm, nice. On a similar note I called into talk radio last week when the host was encouraging everyone to get a CWL and talking about how important a CWL is to have your 2A rights. I called in and told him he was apart of the problem, brainwashing americans through the media to believe they need some sort of government permission slip to exercise rights we were born with that are protected by the constitution. Unlike your situtation, the radio host sided with me and went on to say, "Did you need a permit to call this show this morning? Did you need a permit to go to church this weekend?" He continued until commercial talking about how outrageous it is to add permit/licensing schemes and fees onto RIGHTS.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Training is okay but practice makes perfect. Training didn't win the West. I agree that exercising an inalienable right should not be contingent on a training course.

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    The course required to get a CFP is extremely elementary. Unless you never shot a gun before, you won't learn much about gun handling. And if you ever read through the revised statutes pertaining to self-defense and gun carry, there isn't much to learn there. (The laws in this state are pretty darn simple... my instructor was good, but it is amazing how many instructors out there give a false description of the law... other people's instructors have insisted that OC was illegal, for instance.)
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 10-17-2011 at 01:05 PM.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Do you think he just ignored the fact that you've had military training or just didn't hear you? Even the Air Force has better pistol training than what you'll get in a permit class.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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    Lily,

    First off, thanks for calling the show on Sunday.

    I have never advocated ANY training requirement for gun ownership or for getting a carry permit. That would be anti-freedom.

    On the other hand, I have always said that I think it's a smart thing to do to get training. It's the old "you don't know what you don't know" line. You really don't understand what there is to learn.

    On the show, you got your nose bent out of shape because I pointed out that going into the desert and shooting, as you put it, does not constitute training. You may think it does. That could be because you don't know what you don't know. ?? Military training rarely prepares you for self defense. Many folks who were in the military (but who were not SF or Military Police) have marginal SD gun skills and little or no background in self defense shooting.

    I've been pushing hard for gun rights since 1966, and I've made it my life's work. I don't think there should be any training requirement for gun ownership or for carry.

    I do, however, think we each can benefit not only from training, but from recurrent training.

    For that, I make no apology.

    To hear last Sunday's show, folks can visit www.guntalk.libsyn.com.
    Last edited by Tom Gresham; 10-18-2011 at 07:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Gresham View Post
    I don't think there should be any training requirement for gun ownership or for carry.

    I do, however, think we each can benefit not only from training, but from recurrent training.
    I can go along with this.

    There is no training requirement to fly an ultralight plane, or sail from San Francisco to Honolulu, but anyone who attempts either without getting training is taking a greater risk than necessary.

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    Just FWIW, I put together a podcast on this subject.

    http://guntalk.libsyn.com/bonus-podcast-training

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran Verd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Gresham View Post
    On the other hand, I have always said that I think it's a smart thing to do to get training. It's the old "you don't know what you don't know" line. You really don't understand what there is to learn.
    Just to be clear... what does your training, or your idea of training consist of? In my state, training required to get a CCL is an 8 hour class on law and legality in regards to self-defense shooting (which anyone can learn with some perusal of this forum and a few other sites that break it down for people short and sweet) and firing at a target 7 yards away with 100 rounds of ammo and getting 19 consecutive shots on the target.

    Now, in the training required by my state, the target is stationary. Is that how the training is for where you are? Because, unless the target is moving, unless you and the target are in near to complete darkness, unless you are firing with no ear protection, unless you are not also trying to protect your loved ones from stray shots... then training is no more than shooting a target in your back yard.

    Thats the truth. Anything else is misinformation.
    One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them. Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796.
    If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
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  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    Do you think he just ignored the fact that you've had military training or just didn't hear you? Even the Air Force has better pistol training than what you'll get in a permit class.
    Why would it be a surprise that the Air Force has better pistol training than a permit class? J/W
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Ahhhh . . .

    What is training? That's a question that could spawn a thousand posts!

    Most of the required classes for concealed carry are more like lessons than training, in my view.

    Maybe a better question is: Do you want to be merely legal, or do you want to be competent?

    www.gunsite.com

    www.thunderrancyinc.com

    www.shootrite.org

    And there are dozens of other places where one can get training.

    Again, the point is not to require it. It's a personal call. It's a matter of how prepared do you want to be. Many people are perfectly happy just hitting the minimum. Others want to be as good as they can be.

    How do you know if you are getting good training? The reputation of the trainers and the facility are an indicator. Also, if you are not drawing from a holster, I'd say you were not getting training in concealed carry. If you didn't shoot at least 250 rounds, if you didn't run a bunch of drills on fixing malfunctions, if you didn't learn to shoot from the "weak" side -- one handed, if you didn't at a minimum learn to move and shoot, then I'd call that training a bit weak.

    I've not found anyone who has been to this kind of training who said that it wasn't worthwhile. Even if taking this kind of training isn't an option, there are DVDs available which will help.

    Many who are really serious about self defense make continued study an essential part of their lives.

  14. #14
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Gresham View Post
    Lily,

    First off, thanks for calling the show on Sunday.

    I have never advocated ANY training requirement for gun ownership or for getting a carry permit. That would be anti-freedom.

    On the other hand, I have always said that I think it's a smart thing to do to get training. It's the old "you don't know what you don't know" line. You really don't understand what there is to learn.

    On the show, you got your nose bent out of shape because I pointed out that going into the desert and shooting, as you put it, does not constitute training. You may think it does. That could be because you don't know what you don't know. ?? Military training rarely prepares you for self defense. Many folks who were in the military (but who were not SF or Military Police) have marginal SD gun skills and little or no background in self defense shooting.

    I've been pushing hard for gun rights since 1966, and I've made it my life's work. I don't think there should be any training requirement for gun ownership or for carry.

    I do, however, think we each can benefit not only from training, but from recurrent training.

    For that, I make no apology.

    To hear last Sunday's show, folks can visit www.guntalk.libsyn.com.
    Yes, suggesting training is good, requiring it...not so good. Either we are free or we are not.

    All my best,
    Brian Jeffs
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    The only thing 'Training' should aspire to accomplish is to:

    1) Inform the applicant or 2A rights exerciser where to find information on the legalities of their carry;
    2) Inform the applicant on the permit acquisition process (if necessary);
    3) Inform the applicant on the basic operation of "a" handgun.

    All of these things you can get on your own or your 'dad' (knowledgeable adult) can show you free of charge.

    However, it's not up to anyone to pre-determine how the person exercising their 2A rights should be 'training', or 'using' their firearm. Ninety nine percent of shooting is a matter of knowing the 4 rules and which way the bullets come out of the gun. No on should be getting hysterical over the other 1% which will probably never get used.

    But, having said that, the carrier or 2A rights exerciser should realize that having a HG doesn't mean they can fight effectively with it.

    $.02
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 10-24-2011 at 11:18 AM.
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    The only thing 'Training' should aspire to accomplish is to:

    1) Inform the applicant or 2A rights exerciser where to find information on the legalities of their carry;
    2) Inform the applicant on the permit acquisition process (if necessary);
    3) Inform the applicant on the basic operation of "a" handgun.

    All of these things you can get on your own or your 'dad' (knowledgeable adult) can show you free of charge.

    However, it's not up to anyone to pre-determine how the person exercising their 2A rights should be 'training', or 'using' their firearm. Ninety nine percent of shooting is a matter of knowing the 4 rules and which way the bullets come out of the gun. No on should be getting hysterical over the other 1% which will probably never get used.

    But, having said that, the carrier or 2A rights exerciser should realize that having a HG doesn't mean they can fight effectively with it.

    $.02
    As I said . . . some folks are happy with the minimum. Your call.

    It doesn't prepare you, but there's no requirement that anyone be prepared for anything in life.

    I like to tip the odds in my favor however I can, and in the realm of self defense, that means taking recurrent training (one or two classes each year) as well as shooting thousands of rounds in training scenarios (moving, shooting, using cover, shooting from the ground, clearing various malfunctions, drawing with the weak hand, drawing a backup gun from cover, shooting from vehicles, shooting INTO vehicles, shooting through windshields, etc., etc., etc.)

    I get it that it's not for everyone. That's perfectly okay.

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    On the wall at Gunsite:

    "When you are not training, someone else is,

    and when you meet him,

    you will LOSE."

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    On the wall at Gunsite:

    "When you are not training, someone else is,

    and when you meet him,

    you will LOSE."
    And "where" and "how" do the "criminals" train is my question. Should we fear coming upon a well "trained" law-abiding citizen? Last time I checked, I wasn't lawfully OCing for a "duel" with another lawfully OCing "brother."

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Training to shoot is important, even if it is no more than watching videos and practicing. And by the way, there are some pretty good training videos on YouTube. Practicing is important too. I practice presentation and dry fire almost every day. I put in my range time whenever I can. How to shoot and laws are very important things to learn but I find the most important training is often left out, when not to pull your firearm.

    I was taught this way: Don't carry if you’re not willing draw, don't draw if you’re not willing to shoot, don't shoot unless you’re willing to kill and never kill unless there is no other alternative. We are all responsible for our actions. Training is not worth much unless you put in the time on a regular basis to reinforce what you've learned. Personally I think Mental preparation is as important as training your muscles to automatically respond in the firing process. Shooting at paper isn't the same thing as shooting at another human being. You have the right to arm yourself and the responsibility to train to use it. If you are not mentally prepared in all likelihood if the situation arises you are dead.

    There is that Biblical passage about beating swords into plowshares. Until that day comes I'm going to keep my sword right by my side and hope that if the need arises I am mentally and physically prepared to respond. My sincerest wish is that I will never have to find out if I am indeed ready.

    TBG
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcmustang View Post
    And "where" and "how" do the "criminals" train is my question. Should we fear coming upon a well "trained" law-abiding citizen? Last time I checked, I wasn't lawfully OCing for a "duel" with another lawfully OCing "brother."
    I'll bet there are some crooks out there with some training. Maybe not the typical muggers, but probably terrorists and organized crime if nothing else.

    Home invasion rings have been made up of police before: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/6...ring.html?pg=1
    Probably some ex-military criminals out there too.
    Last edited by Felid`Maximus; 10-26-2011 at 11:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    On the wall at Gunsite:

    "When you are not training, someone else is,

    and when you meet him,

    you will LOSE."
    Training for what?

    I do some moderate training, we can all train, Roll on the ground as Tom suggests, and just to be taken out by an accumalation of cheeseburgers.

    I have seen videos of people who severley injured themselves while training, it would not be a stretch to believe that traning costs lives as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DON`T TREAD ON ME View Post
    Training for what?

    I do some moderate training, we can all train, Roll on the ground as Tom suggests, and just to be taken out by an accumalation of cheeseburgers.

    I have seen videos of people who severley injured themselves while training, it would not be a stretch to believe that traning costs lives as well.
    Accumulation of Cheeseburgers ! +1 that's a good one
    Yeah and what Tom said WOW ! And I thought I had some training in G-Q being a first loader on a 3 inch fifty
    in the Navy Nam Vet. That's why I can't hear much anymore. So I got to keep a sharp eye out.
    Then again sneaking up on an old armed deaf person could be dangerous.

    Robin47

  23. #23
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Force Science does produce some excellent studies and training tools.
    www.forcescience.org

    snip:
    • Despite their “vital role,” nearly 40% of agencies do not require firearms instructors to take refresher training once they have been certified;

    • Larger departments, which statistically have greater exposure to armed encounters, tend to require fewer firearms training and/or requalifying sessions per year;

    • Officers on some agencies are able to pass requalification tests even though many of their shots miss the target entirely, and those who fail to qualify may be allowed to re-shoot until they squeak by, “sometimes without diagnostic and corrective intervention.”

    • On whole, “the overarching characteristic” of in-service firearms training is the “wide latitude exercised by departments”—essentially a jumble of inconsistent standards and instructional modalities that too often works to the detriment of officers, agencies, and the communities they serve.





    http://www.policeone.com/police-prod...ng-for-police/

    snip:
    One large agency’s officers scored a gunfight hit rate of just 11 percent during a 10-year period I analyzed. That’s a staggering statistic, but another number was even more shocking. Though the sample was admittedly small, the bad guys in those incidents also scored an 11 percent hit rate.

    Their Academy Commander summed it up perfectly: “My officers get a hundred hours of firearms training in the academy and quarterly qualifications thereafter, but are hitting at the same rate as felons with no formal training? We should save all the ammunition, because our training program seems to be worthless





    I believe in training.
    Training should be readily available for those who want it.
    It should be affordable, accurate, and encouraged.

    Mandated by the government? No.
    Encouraged by other gun owners? Yes!!!


    For those that want to insist on training. How much training did Lance Thomas, Jim Cirillo, John W. Hardin, John Selman and the list continues......have?

    For those who can't afford to go to a firearms training school, there are vidoes that can help as well as IDPA, IPSC and Paladin just use you everyday carry gear and don't become gaming.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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