Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 46

Thread: Another look at stopping power

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    6,787

    Another look at stopping power

    There's a lot of different ways to rack and stack a bullet's effectiveness, ranging from the laws of physics to compiling statistics based on morgue reports. The problem with using the latter is that they don't include the ones who lived.

    As for physics, there's more to the picture than the bullet's KE (1/2*m*v^2). There's also kinetic momentum (m*v) as well as both of those divided by the caliber (known precisely) or the expanded diameter (varies from round to round). Finally, one must consider the mean length of penetration (also varies from round to round).

    Axioms:

    1. Kinetic Energy is proportional to the amount of damage that will be done. This results primarily in shock caused by rapid loss of blood and blood pressure. Keep in mind, however, this only includes the portion of the body through which the bullet travels. If you have a highly penetrating bullet, much of that kinetic energy will be lost.

    2. Kinetic Momentum is a rough indicator of the amount of impact the target will feel. This results primarily in the wallop that is felt, mostly via CNS effects. This, too, only effects the body so long as it's in the body.

    3. Both KE and KM are important, as both are important to "stopping power," but in different ways.

    4. A simple, yet workable means of comparing the "stopping power" between different rounds is to simply multiply KE and KM together, then take their square root.

    Over the years I've gathered data on many rounds, and have compiled the following table, sorted on this value of stopping power (KME-root). Please note the results for the .357 rounds vary considerable, while the values for the .45 rounds fall into a fairly narrow range, the same as the values for the 9mm. The primary reason for the narrow range has to do with the operation of the the semi-auto. Revolvers, on the other handle anything down to firing just the primer.

    You'll notice the .357 round with the most stopping power is just 9.54% greater than the .45 round with the most stopping power, at least by this simple formula, of course. And don't forget, if it penetrates the body, this "stopping power" result is significantly diminished.

    Cartridge (Wb@MV) KME-root
    .380 ACP (90 at 1000) 22.3
    9mm Makarov (95 at 975) 22.6
    .38 Spec. (125 at 850) 24.3
    .38 Spec. (140 at 800) 24.8
    .38 Spec. (158 at 760) 25.9
    .38 Spec. +P (110 at 1000) 27.2
    .38 Spec. +P (125 at 950) 28.7
    .38 Spec. +P (158 at 890) 32.8
    9mm Luger (115 at 1135) 34.4
    .357 Mag. (140 at 1000) 34.7
    9mm Luger (124 at 1100) 35.4
    9mm Luger (147 at 990) 35.9
    9mm Win JHP (147 at 990) 35.9
    9mm Win Bonded PDX1 (147 at 1000) 36.4
    9mm Luger (115 at 1180) 36.5
    9mm Win Silvertip HP (147 at 1010) 36.9
    .44 Spec. (240 at 750) 38.6
    9mm Win Silvertip HP (115 at 1225) 38.6
    9mm Win JHP (115 at 1225) 38.6
    9mm Luger (124 at 1181) 39.4
    .357 Mag. (110 at 1300) 40.4
    .40 S&W (180 at 950) 41.3
    .357 Mag. (125 at 1235) 42.5
    .38 Super Auto +P (125 at 1240) 42.7
    .38 Super (125 at 1240) 42.7
    .40 S&W (135 at 1190) 43.4
    .45 ACP (230 at 850) 44.6
    .45 ACP (185 at 1000) 45.8
    .45 ACP (200 at 975) 47.7
    .45 Colt (250 at 860) 48.5
    .357 SIG (125 at 1350) 48.5
    .40 S&W (155 at 1180) 49.2
    .45 Colt (200 at 1000) 49.5
    .44 Rem. Mag. (200 at 1000) 49.5
    .45 Colt (225 at 960) 52.4
    .357 Mag. (125 at 1450) 54.0
    .357 Mag. (158 at 1250) 54.7
    10mm Auto (180 at 1150) 55.0
    10mm Auto (155 at 1300) 56.9
    .357 Mag. (180 at 1180) 57.1
    .357 Mag. (140 at 1400) 57.4
    .44 Rem. Mag. (240 at 1144) 72.7
    .44 Rem. Mag. (200 at 1295) 73.0
    .44 Rem. Mag. (240 at 1172) 75.4
    .41 Rem. Mag. (210 at 1300) 77.1
    .44 Rem. Mag. (240 at 1200) 78.1
    .44 Rem. Mag. (300 at 1150) 91.6
    .44 Rem. Mag. (265 at 1300) 97.2
    .44 Rem. Mag. (225 at 1450) 97.3

    Bottom line: For maximum stopping power, pick the round that will stay in the body and has the largest KME-root.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    6,787
    Other ways to look at this:

    1. A double-tap with the best 9mm packs as much punch as a single round of your average .44 mag.

    2. A 10mm Auto packs as much punch as a .357.

    3. .38 Specials don't pack much punch at all, only slightly more than a .380, which packs less than 1/5th the punch of the best .44 mag loads.

    My conclusions based on this are:

    1. I like my 16+1 9mm. It might not pack as much single-shot punch as other options, but it's very controllable.

    2. If I were to purchase another auto today, it would be a 10mm.

    3. If I were to purchase a revolver for CC, it would be a .357 mag.

    4. If I were to purchase a revolver for OC, it would be a .44 mag.

    5. I would never rely on a .380 ACP to stop a bad guy.

    6. .38 specials are indeed "special." Say that with a Church Lady twist and you'll get my drift.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766
    Since9,

    Are the axioms in the OP your own creation, or are you forwarding the info?

    In the OP, where it says penetrate, should I take it to mean penetrate or perforate (go all the way through)?

  4. #4
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    6,787
    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Are the axioms in the OP your own creation, or are you forwarding the info?
    Hi, Citizen. It's just physics. Most ballistics tables include KE. Some include KM. I've seen all sorts of calculations involving varying proportions of either crunched with unexpanded cross-section, expanded cross-section, and mean gelatin penetration depth, and various combinations thereof. One can calculate to the extreme, if not ridiculous.

    In my opinion, in the overall scheme of things, simply taking the square root of the KE*KM product is in the ballpark, and simple enough to allow for a good comparison between rounds of differing mass and velocities, two factors which are readily available. Caliber is readily available, too, but expanded cross section and mean gelatin penetration depth are not.

    All factors have an impact on stopping power, but since only two factors are readily available, this is one way to come up with some meaningful comparisons.

    The stated conclusions are my own.

    In the OP, where it says penetrate, should I take it to mean penetrate or perforate (go all the way through)?
    The phrase "completely penetrate" would be more accurate.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Free, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    3,855
    .44 mags are not good for PD. They will overpenetrate too easily if they don't hit bone. Evan Marshall still holds that the number 1 and 2 stoppers are the .357 with 125g JHPs and the 230g +P .45ACP JHP. I like +P+ in my Hi-Powers and new XD/m--20 round capacity, but they do not have the stopping power of the above. Still, 14 in the HPs and 20 in the Springfield more than make up for the 8 or 6 I can carry in my 1911s or Smith 586. I have never been a big fan of the 10mm--or .40 S&W either. Personal preference, as both are good rounds for PD, although you have to be careful with what you carry in 10mm or overpenetration can be a problem there, as well.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    6,787
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunslinger View Post
    .44 mags are not good for PD. They will overpenetrate too easily if they don't hit bone.
    Yep.

    Evan Marshall still holds that the number 1 and 2 stoppers are the .357 with 125g JHPs and the 230g +P .45ACP JHP.
    I'd argue that any round with a penetration depth of more than 10" not only wastes its energy beyond its target, but unnecessarily endangers the lives of innocents beyond it. I'd also argue that double-tapped 9mm 115 or 147-gr Silvertip rounds pack as much if not more punch than a single .357 or .45 round.

    I like +P+ in my Hi-Powers and new XD/m--20 round capacity, but they do not have the stopping power of the above. Still, 14 in the HPs and 20 in the Springfield more than make up for the 8 or 6 I can carry in my 1911s or Smith 586. I have never been a big fan of the 10mm--or .40 S&W either. Personal preference, as both are good rounds for PD...
    Straight-up. Well, sort of. I'm not a fan of the +P and +P+ ratings. I've learned my firearm can handle +P+ loads all day long with nothing more than stronger recoil spring. Whoopie. If I can't stop them with a standard 9mm response, I suck, and they deserve to rule the Earth.

    ..you have to be careful with what you carry in 10mm or overpenetration can be a problem there, as well.
    True. When I was discussing this on the eBBS's 16 to 18 years ago, "Glaser Safety Slugs" were the hot item as they didn't supposedly didn't suffer from over-penetration problems. What ever happened to them?
    Last edited by since9; 10-19-2011 at 09:19 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Free, Colorado, USA
    Posts
    3,855
    Glaser still makes them, some others do similar styles. As to +P+ in 9mm, I like 1350fps behind a round like Federal HSTs that almost doubles in expansion. True, a good standard velocity round will do the job, but the extra 200fps is icing on the cake.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    afganastan
    Posts
    24
    gunslinger,

    Yes, but what is the Peneratration of a stardard JHP in 9MM? For the most part unless you shoot a fat person your allready likely to overpenetrate. So why add +P?

    What do you guys think of the exploding ammo that turns into a powder when it hits somthing hard and or wet? It will not go thru someone and about a foot after hitting a wall (even just a sheet of drywall) it turns into a powder. i beleve it is called elertro shock. A friend was telling me about it. He said that it does such a wide spred area of damage that it causes the nervous system to shut down, not sure how true that is but it sounds good.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    184
    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    True. When I was discussing this on the eBBS's 16 to 18 years ago, "Glaser Safety Slugs" were the hot item as they didn't supposedly didn't suffer from over-penetration problems. What ever happened to them?
    Sure enough, they don't suffer over-penetration problems, because they penetrate very weakly. As in less than 6 inches in ballistics gel, which probably equates to substantially less than half of that in tissue.

    I've seen x-rays of a guy who was struck in the tricep with a 9mm glaser slug. It basically destroyed his muscle, and a couple pellets went into his side, but didn't penetrate past the fatty tissue. I sure as heck wouldn't trust those bullets to defend my life with.

    They're also like $15/6 shots. Unless someone is independently wealthy, how could anyone even afford to ensure reliable function in their firearm?

    Anyway, in a related issue:

    Personally, I think people put too much fear into over penetration. Unless you're like the Air Marshals, and have to worry about minimizing collateral damage, the chances that A) you're going to have to shoot someone and B) that your bullet passes through your target and that C) some innocent bystander is directly in line with you and the bad guy and D) is at a distance and trajectory which would put them in mortal danger... Well, the chances of all of these things adding up are totally eclipsed by the probability that a given shot won't hit the bad guy in the first place!

    Also, the FAMs have gone to 357 SIG--one round that is reputed to penetrate like the dickens for its size--even a good hollowpoint will probably go through an average sized person with some fuel to spare. If the air marshals are more concerned about raw damage than possible over-penetration, in an aluminum tube stacked with hundreds of potential innocent bystanders, at 30,000 feet... You know, I think that's pretty telling.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran Verd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Lampe, Missouri, United States
    Posts
    381
    Quote Originally Posted by CO-Joe View Post
    Personally, I think people put too much fear into over penetration. Unless you're like the Air Marshals, and have to worry about minimizing collateral damage, the chances that A) you're going to have to shoot someone and B) that your bullet passes through your target and that C) some innocent bystander is directly in line with you and the bad guy and D) is at a distance and trajectory which would put them in mortal danger... Well, the chances of all of these things adding up are totally eclipsed by the probability that a given shot won't hit the bad guy in the first place!
    I don't know.. the majority of the stories involving self-defense with a firearm typically has the victim shooting more than once, and only about 50% of the time does even one bullet hit the BG. So it is something to take note of.
    One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them. Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796.
    If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
    Find businesses that are pro gun and those that aren't. Support Friend or Foe by using it!

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    fl
    Posts
    1,835
    Hmm where to begin..
    There are so many variables, equations just dont take into account. Bullets do funny things sometimes en route.

    Caliber X @ 115 grains may well pack an impressive figure (on paper), but when it brushes something on it's way to the target- or even On or In the target (item of clothing,wristband of a watch,a belt buckle, a car window, a rib, a bone in the wrist,etc) , it often get's knocked off-course,and ends up somewhere other than intended or hoped-for. Even if it does expand as advertised (which, in reality, is very rare).

    Caliber Y @ 35 grains -while even lighter, may sometimes punch right on through the item-or, other times- stop dead against it, and shatter.

    Caliber z @ 230-240 grains tends to be less prone to being knocked off-course, or stopped right away whether it expands or not...

    A lot of interweb "experts", and even quiet a few established writers on the topic tell us that 230 grain Hardball (@ approx 840fps) doesnt expand, and over-penetrates. Nonsense, I say...




    Others will tell you that a .25 auto is worthless. Check the stats on how many fatalities, and how many maiming injuries that round has claimed.
    I've seen more fatalities from .25 auto than everything else but .45 , 7.62x39mm, and 12 gauge.
    From 9mm and .40 rarely any, if ever. .380 never saw that many brought in who were hit with one- no data there.

    So here's the wierd conclusion- it seems the 2 extremes - very small, light bullets @ moderately fast velocities or big, slow, heavy bullets at fairly slow velocities (as far as handgun rounds ) seem to be the most effective in actual "on the street" encounters such as we are concerned with. The "middle-weights" in .38/.380, 9mm, .40 seem too easily disrupted, deflected, and brushed aside (95-180 grains) unless they are moving at .357 velocities.

    Not trying to start a caliber/brand/stopping-power war- that's just what I base on 2yr.s of Trauma center experience with an avg. of 3-5 GSVs per night.
    We had a mix of shootings coming in- mostly criminal vs. criminal using their loads of choice- .25 auto and 9mm. -And yes most of them shot multiple times, and most often missing important bits. A lot of the hits that came in were superficial/treat-and-release cases to the hands, legs, feet, etc.
    The fatal .25 hits were usually in the gut, the heart or the throat...

    Local Deputies are issued .40's . We often had the folks they shot brought in for their treatment before going to county lockup. As often as not the person would have been shot by 3-4 deputies. We had many cases of folks brought in who had been shot as many as 23 times by the cops with .40s - a lot of those rounds recovered from inside the body of the GSV- and rarely did we find one that even tried to expand.

    Didnt see many .38 cases, but the ones we did werent very promising, either.Most of those penetrated maybe 6" at most, unexpanded. Just went in,stopped and sat there. The ONE .38 spl. fatality I saw was a suicide, in which the man put the muzzle of his snubbie directly to his chest and pulled the trigger-round went straight into his heart. He was DOA.

    12 gauge were almost always fatal- usually DOA, sometimes with lingering, painful deaths a few hours later.
    7.62x39mm - almost always fatal.

  12. #12
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    5,849
    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Hmm where to begin..
    There are so many variables, equations just dont take into account. Bullets do funny things sometimes en route.

    Caliber X @ 115 grains may well pack an impressive figure (on paper), but when it brushes something on it's way to the target- or even On or In the target (item of clothing,wristband of a watch,a belt buckle, a car window, a rib, a bone in the wrist,etc) , it often get's knocked off-course,and ends up somewhere other than intended or hoped-for. Even if it does expand as advertised (which, in reality, is very rare).

    Caliber Y @ 35 grains -while even lighter, may sometimes punch right on through the item-or, other times- stop dead against it, and shatter.

    Caliber z @ 230-240 grains tends to be less prone to being knocked off-course, or stopped right away whether it expands or not...

    A lot of interweb "experts", and even quiet a few established writers on the topic tell us that 230 grain Hardball (@ approx 840fps) doesnt expand, and over-penetrates. Nonsense, I say...




    Others will tell you that a .25 auto is worthless. Check the stats on how many fatalities, and how many maiming injuries that round has claimed.
    I've seen more fatalities from .25 auto than everything else but .45 , 7.62x39mm, and 12 gauge.
    From 9mm and .40 rarely any, if ever. .380 never saw that many brought in who were hit with one- no data there.

    So here's the wierd conclusion- it seems the 2 extremes - very small, light bullets @ moderately fast velocities or big, slow, heavy bullets at fairly slow velocities (as far as handgun rounds ) seem to be the most effective in actual "on the street" encounters such as we are concerned with. The "middle-weights" in .38/.380, 9mm, .40 seem too easily disrupted, deflected, and brushed aside (95-180 grains) unless they are moving at .357 velocities.

    Not trying to start a caliber/brand/stopping-power war- that's just what I base on 2yr.s of Trauma center experience with an avg. of 3-5 GSVs per night.
    We had a mix of shootings coming in- mostly criminal vs. criminal using their loads of choice- .25 auto and 9mm. -And yes most of them shot multiple times, and most often missing important bits. A lot of the hits that came in were superficial/treat-and-release cases to the hands, legs, feet, etc.
    The fatal .25 hits were usually in the gut, the heart or the throat...

    Local Deputies are issued .40's . We often had the folks they shot brought in for their treatment before going to county lockup. As often as not the person would have been shot by 3-4 deputies. We had many cases of folks brought in who had been shot as many as 23 times by the cops with .40s - a lot of those rounds recovered from inside the body of the GSV- and rarely did we find one that even tried to expand.

    Didnt see many .38 cases, but the ones we did werent very promising, either.Most of those penetrated maybe 6" at most, unexpanded. Just went in,stopped and sat there. The ONE .38 spl. fatality I saw was a suicide, in which the man put the muzzle of his snubbie directly to his chest and pulled the trigger-round went straight into his heart. He was DOA.

    12 gauge were almost always fatal- usually DOA, sometimes with lingering, painful deaths a few hours later.
    7.62x39mm - almost always fatal.
    Two questions if I may.

    How recent was/is your trauma center experience? And do you happen to know which .40S&W loads were failing to expand with the police shootings you reported here?

    It has long been my contention that due the number of variables involved in handgun shooting incidents (an almost infinite number), it is very hard to compile reliable and consistent data on the effectiveness of given calibers and loads. And since volunteers are not exactly lining up for us to test our theories with our pet loads, we are really at a brick wall when trying to find the optimum combination of caliber and load for our SD handguns. Which is why it is so valuable to hear from folks who have been there done that in whatever capacity they may offer.

    We try to make the best guess we can for our carry guns and just hope our choices will do their job should they be called to action. The problem is, we don't and won't really know until the evil is staring us in our faces and then we just hope and pray we took the right decisions.

    While people who have been involved in shootings, and those who have experience after the fact (trauma centers for example) tend to be reluctant to discuss their "events", they do everyone here a wealth of service when they do.

    Thanks gentlemen in advance for you input.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 10-20-2011 at 09:12 AM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

  13. #13
    Regular Member carry for myself's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    546
    hence why i carry the .357 sig. light. small , compact. generally has slightly lower balistics if not the same of the .357 mag.

    does amazingly in FBI tests at penetrating window glass, car doors and heavy clothing.

    expands to just about the size of a .45 ball for effective energy transfer.

    NTM instead of the .357 Mag in a wheel gun. i dont only have 6 shots, and a slower reload. i have 13 shots per mag. plus spares :-D


    only thing i wish was different is the PRICE :-D haha


    personally i hope to never use the .357, .40 S&W, .45acp. .22 or .25......on anything to find out what works best. the only real test...............would involve a hitler regime esque testing method on humans which i believe to be horrible........soo lets all just carry what were compfortable with. and hope we never have to test our theories in real life :-)
    Last edited by carry for myself; 10-20-2011 at 09:29 AM.
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    fl
    Posts
    1,835
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    Two questions if I may.

    How recent was/is your trauma center experience? And do you happen to know which .40S&W loads were failing to expand with the police shootings you reported here?

    It has long been my contention that due the number of variables involved in handgun shooting incidents (an almost infinite number), it is very hard to compile reliable and consistent data on the effectiveness of given calibers and loads. And since volunteers are not exactly lining up for us to test our theories with our pet loads, we are really at a brick wall when trying to find the optimum combination of caliber and load for our SD handguns. Which is why it is so valuable to hear from folks who have been there done that in whatever capacity they may offer.

    We try to make the best guess we can for our carry guns and just hope our choices will do their job should they be called to action. The problem is, we don't and won't really know until the evil is staring us in our faces and then we just hope and pray we took the right decisions.

    While people who have been involved in shootings, and those who have experience after the fact (trauma centers for example) tend to be reluctant to discuss their "events", they do everyone here a wealth of service when they do.

    Thanks gentlemen in advance for you input.
    At the time, it was Federal 180 grain tactical. I understand that they have switched to Gold Dots in recent years. Have'nt heard anything re- results of that switch, but most of the officers I speak to indicate they wish they could carry .45, .357Sig or 10mm..
    I was working in that Trauma Center until about 6 yr.s ago, before changing careers to the Dept. of Health.

    I had,at the time, been out of the Army for several years already, but I dont include my own military experiences in all of this, as I consider military-issue ammo and situations to be very different from civilian "street" shootings with which we here are concerned. The choices of available ammo, the arms we can carry, and the tactical situations are a very different animal, IMO. I was, however, beginning to carry myself at the time, and was of course paying very very close attention to GSV cases that came in. It was very revealing, indeed, to see what actually does work and what actually doesnt- marketing by ammo and gun manufacturers, and "experts" aside.

    As often as not, these cases were accompanied by police and detectives investigating the shootings, (or in some cases, involved in),and very frequently-both parties to the shooting incident were injured and brought in. It was not the least bit uncommon to have the two (or more) guys who shot each other laying on gurneys right next to each other while being x-rayed and patched up. As, such, between the weapons and shell casings recovered at the scene, the answers provided by the shooters/shootees themselves, and the detectives, exposed what loads, what guns, etc. had been used. (and yes, trauma docs who see-on avg. 3-6 GSVs per night can indeed identify what round they recover from a body-provided it isnt too terribly mangled)

    If there had been a way, legally, to "officially" document the details of such cases, I would have loved to. May even still do so at some point, provided I can obtain permission to do so, and figure out a way to do so without revealing patient information (which is protected by law-for victims and criminals alike) or specifics of cases that often dont go to court for some time.

    It was very revealing, indeed, to see what actually does work and what actually doesnt- marketing by ammo and gun manufacturers, and "experts" aside.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    184
    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Others will tell you that a .25 auto is worthless. Check the stats on how many fatalities, and how many maiming injuries that round has claimed.
    Nobody questions whether .25 auto or other weaker cartridges are deadly. If I had to guess, I'd say a magnitude more civilians have been fatally shot with .22LR vs most other calibers. 1) it's been around forever 2) before widespread use of antibiotics, even a minor wound could pretty problematic.

    The correct question to ask is this: are they good fight stoppers? I care less that my assailant dies 3 hours later of terminal hypovolemia than I do care whether or not he stops his attack. In fact, my ideal defensive tool would entail 0% mortal danger, yet would have 100% stop rate, and have a multi-shot capability. Until we're able to set phasers to stun, I don't see that happening. However, unless you hit major hub of nerves, .22, .25, .380 just don't have the capacity to penetrate and do damage to peripheral blood vessels and organs that service-caliber rounds do.

    re: 45 round nose ammo expanding: I've personally shot planks of pine with .45 ACP FMJ and recovered bullets nearly in good enough shape to reload and shoot again. Same with sandbags and earth. Now, I'll acknowledge that I'm not an ER doc, but I'm pretty sure most of the stuff we humans are made of is a lot softer than these things. If you hit bone, yeah, I could see some deformation happening.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    fl
    Posts
    1,835
    Oh, no doubt. Would I suggest .25 as a primary, defensive round? Heck no. But I wouldnt hesistate to make use of it at close range, as a last-ditch gun, BUG, or whatever.
    I can attest to this much about the .25 acp though- having been hit with one many years ago. Round entered the back of my right hand between the middle and ring-finger knuckles, and rode along outside the bone of the back of my hand, coming to a stop about 1inch short of my wrist just under the skin.
    It by no means stopped what I was doing at the time, and at the time, I thought I had just been grazed. It wasnt until an hour or so later that I felt the back of my hand when changing a bandage that I felt the lump of the slug under the skin, and went to the ER and had it removed.
    BUT- now, 28 years or so later,though, I still have a lot of issues with that hand. Nerve damage, etc. The entry wound itches like mad and aches anytime the weather gets funky, and sometimes the fingers of that hand totally lock-up on me.
    Fatal? No. Fight-stopping? in this case,no. But-not one day in 28 yrs since has passed when I havent been "reminded" about that day. That's just the hand- if Id been hit elsewhere? Who knows.

    As for .45 acp, yes, I have rounds from the same mag fired into the same target that looked like potential reloads.
    As for shooting people with em... few of us are running around stark naked. Most of us have things on, -in winter months usually heavy things in layers, and more than a few of us usually have all manner of things in our pockets, etc. If the rounds pass through,or glance these things- it changes up quite a few things, usually.

    And, while we didnt see anywhere near as many .45 cases as we did .25/9mm/.40, the few we did were always fatal (including cases in which the injury itself, alone, should NOT have been fatal-ie:1 round into a shoulder, GSV goes into shock=-dead) , and never more than 2 rounds used.

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    184
    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    I can attest to this much about the .25 acp though- having been hit with one many years ago. Round entered the back of my right hand between the middle and ring-finger knuckles, and rode along outside the bone of the back of my hand, coming to a stop about 1inch short of my wrist just under the skin.
    Yeoch. Yeah, I'm not surprised that you continue to suffer effects. The hands have more nerve endings than any place on the body outside of the head/spine, and all of those signals have to go through the wrist/arm.

  18. #18
    Regular Member carry for myself's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    546
    heck being shot with anything can give long term effects. buddy of mine my highschool years decided to romp the wrong hayfield. took a full load of rocksalt to the thigh. just about 10 years later. he still has a nasty scar. discoloration and alot of pain in his thigh where some of the salt stayed. limps too. and thats just rock salt.

    another neighbor i had, was around during the 50's and 60's peace power times, took 2 rubber bullets to shoulder at a rally. still cant lift his arm over his head.

    but would either of these things stop someone in their tracks? NO.

    would most carried handgun rounds stop someone in their tracks?? YES. headshots, shots to nerve systems or a well placed round to the pelvis WILL stop someone. you can probably see why. but the question is...is there enough time to aim for a specific part like that? probably not. is there a low enough level of juice running through your veins to actually put a round in a small area in a SD situation? probably not.

    so that in itself says that most SD situations, rounds and incidents will not result in a flat out "stop" of the assailant unless it is a psychological stop. the BG saying "oh **** i've been shot" and dropping. *sometimes has happened without them even being hit".

    generally anything short of a high powered rilfe, 12 guage round point blank, 12 guage slug or the equal will NOT put the BG down instantly. and thats due to fact that unless we get lucky, were not going to hit something that stops him.

    so practice practice practice. remember. in a SD situation. your skillset will be equal to the worst day you've ever had on the range. at best. so you better make sure that your worst day. isnt that bad to begin with ;-)
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    fl
    Posts
    1,835
    Train hard, fight easy, of course. (hopefully,anyway).
    But that brings the other element into things- that of the "shot placement" proponents. Yes, it is important, of course, but there's a catch-22..

    As mentioned before- some of those lighter/ middle-weight rounds may still not perform as hoped-even IF everything goes "right" and you land the shots in one of the vitals (center-mass/head/etc.)
    .25 to the head, even if you can? Not a great idea, beyond distracting the guy and maybe making him go "OUCH!" Not likely at all to pen that skull.
    Even 9mm- saw more cases than I can count of folks walking in, under their own power, asking for help- with 9mm gunshot wounds to their heads. In at least one case- multiple hits. He was treated and released that night. (albeit into Police custody..)
    Even WITH excellent shot-placement, I think the weight of the round used (at least 200+ grains at a minimum) has the most effect, regardless of velocity or "muzzle energy" and the like..

  20. #20
    Regular Member carry for myself's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    546
    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Train hard, fight easy, of course. (hopefully,anyway).
    But that brings the other element into things- that of the "shot placement" proponents. Yes, it is important, of course, but there's a catch-22..

    As mentioned before- some of those lighter/ middle-weight rounds may still not perform as hoped-even IF everything goes "right" and you land the shots in one of the vitals (center-mass/head/etc.)
    .25 to the head, even if you can? Not a great idea, beyond distracting the guy and maybe making him go "OUCH!" Not likely at all to pen that skull.
    Even 9mm- saw more cases than I can count of folks walking in, under their own power, asking for help- with 9mm gunshot wounds to their heads. In at least one case- multiple hits. He was treated and released that night. (albeit into Police custody..)
    Even WITH excellent shot-placement, I think the weight of the round used (at least 200+ grains at a minimum) has the most effect, regardless of velocity or "muzzle energy" and the like..
    i couldnt agree more. usually when shooting at a attackers head you are aiming at the front of his head wich happens to be a very thick part of the skull. a .25 unless directed point blank dead on would probably graise the skull and deflect, causing a massive headache, possible fracture and a concussion but wouldnt drop the guy.

    bullet weight. load and caliber really does effect a wound and the damage of that wound. you can fire a .17HRM into someones torso yes. but it is such a light round that the velocity would probably just make a through and through wound. and not stop the perp.

    i say whatever do you do carry the velocity of the round and the weight of the round should be about equal.........too heavy and slow. no penetration, too light and fast, over penetration . the point is to get the round into the attacker and stay in him, thus trapping all of the energy behind that round in the wound cavity and effectively mushing whatever it hit
    Last edited by carry for myself; 10-20-2011 at 08:50 PM.
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Bellevue, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,037
    Regarding the over-penetration concern:

    The FBI would disagree:

    "The fear of over-penetration is a misconception, which was created back when law enforcement was trying to overcome misinformed public resistance to the use of hollowpoint ammunition. In the process, we began to believe it ourselves. First, our lawyers are unaware of any sucessful legal action resulting from the injury of a bystander due to a round over-penetrating the subject. We are aware of numerous incidents of Agents/officers being killed because their round did not penetrate enough (Grogan and Dove, for example). Further, if you examine shooting statistics you will see that officers hit the subject somewhere around 20-30% of the time. Thus 70-80% of shots fired never hit their intended target, and nobody ever worries about them - only the ones that might “over-penetrate” the bad guy. Third, as our testing shows, even the most frangible bullets designed specifically for shallow penetration will plug up when striking wood or wallboard and then penetrate like full metal jacket ammunition. We are aware of successful legal actions where an innocent party has been struck by a shot passing through a wall, but as we have proven, ALL of them will do that."

    - http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

    This post was shamelessly stolen reposted from diesel556:
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...47#post1402547

  22. #22
    Regular Member carry for myself's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    546
    true. over penetration may not be "LETHAL" or a worry on paper. however i ask the FBI to ask anyone who has had a through and through gunshot wound to agree with them that it does not happen. now with that said. im not saying over penetration as a worry for side casualty. im talking about the ineffectiveness of a round that is indeed a through and through.

    think of this. you take a 1,200fps pellit rifle and fire it at drywall. is it going to go straight through? yes. is it going to make a very tiny hole? yes. the reason for this is all of the kinnetic energy behind that pellet continues on with the pellet after it passes through the wall.

    now take a drill, drill a hole in the wall and place a M-80 firecracker in the hole and light the fuse. this is the same physical reaction as a round stopping inside the wound cavity. all of the kennetic force behind the round which is propelling it stops abruptly and has a force ripple effect. like dropping a rock into the middle of a lake. those ripples damage tissue, muscle, can even fracture and break bone.

    now it is a scientific fact that any object that meets another object and comes to a complete stop transfers all of the energy of both objects to the point of impact and outwards from it. . and things that crumple up transfer more energy than things that dont. hence why a tennis ball thrown at 100mph transfers more energy than a baseball thrown at the same speed. because it folds and forces the engergy outwards.

    now any round that is small and hot can and does have a tendency to over penetrate, because it has a small surface area and is traveling at above sub sonic speeds. therefore when it strikes a target you get 3X less energy transfer than you would with a round with a larger surface area , balanced velocity and a surface that tends to flatten out giving yet a larger surface area.


    now on the issue of the FBI reports *a little humor to end*..........why would they ever want to tell us that bigger guns work better? the bigger guns people carry. the more scared the FBI is of them. so what is to say they arnt just hearding the "sheeple" to buy less powerful/ less lethal weapons for their own personal gain :-p
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member Jim675's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Bellevue, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,037
    One more thought for you to consider. Over-penetration does not lessen lethality. Consider a (dud) 155mm howitzer shell that completely penetrates versus a BB that that stops in the flesh. Obviously the considerable hole left by the arty shell would be a much larger concern.

    It may be that the portion (10%, 53%, 99% ,?) of the more powerful projectile used to pass through flesh exceeds the entirety of the available energy of the round that is stopped inside.

    Also, disrupting a certain volume of flesh a certain degree requires X amount of energy. If the round actually breaks the skin on the other side of the body it can't go back and undo damage even though its flying off to continue following the laws of physics.

    A .50 BMG is an effective man-stopper even though over-penetration is the norm.

  24. #24
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    , Virginia, USA
    Posts
    387
    I'd say that if your truly intent on stopping someone a long gun is the only way to go. Since it is not practical to carry around a long gun in daily life the hand gun will have to suffice.
    Regardless of the caliber the handgun should be viewed merely as a means to buy you the much needed time to escape the unfortunate violent situation you have managed to find yourself in.

  25. #25
    Regular Member carry for myself's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    546
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim675 View Post
    One more thought for you to consider. Over-penetration does not lessen lethality. Consider a (dud) 155mm howitzer shell that completely penetrates versus a BB that that stops in the flesh. Obviously the considerable hole left by the arty shell would be a much larger concern.

    It may be that the portion (10%, 53%, 99% ,?) of the more powerful projectile used to pass through flesh exceeds the entirety of the available energy of the round that is stopped inside.

    Also, disrupting a certain volume of flesh a certain degree requires X amount of energy. If the round actually breaks the skin on the other side of the body it can't go back and undo damage even though its flying off to continue following the laws of physics.

    A .50 BMG is an effective man-stopper even though over-penetration is the norm.
    very true. but then your taking into account the fact that the .50 BMG or howitzer shell are very heavy and large rounds. weighing well over 400g and in the case of the howitzer..........haha 85lbs. now if you take a 350ft tall man. who weighs 3 tons.......and fire the .50 BMG at his face it will have the same effect as the .25acp would on a brick wall :-p .. so overpenitrating is GREAT with a very large and extremely powerful projectile. but then again a caliber of that size would be a 'man stopper" .

    however when comparing pistol ammunition. scientifically speaking. larger and more powerful IS going to outweigh smaller and faster any day of the week.

    now if your talking penetrating a windshild or car door and striking a BG with effectiveness, small and fast is better for the penetrating power it holds :-) lol
    i would rather run out of blood, breath and life. and die fighting. than run out of ammo , and die with my pants down -Tom Scantas

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •