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Thread: Email from Nick on WCI offering classes

  1. #1
    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Email from Nick on WCI offering classes

    I got an e-mail from Nick (WCI Pres.) letting me know that WCI is in talks with the DOJ on WCI certifing their own instuctors to be able to offer classes that will meet the DOJ requierments.

    I am thinking if he wanted the E-mail posted here he would have done it himself.

    Basically, classes will be free and he is looking for volunteers (with some qualifications).

    There are some "restictions" that will be asked of any volunteers.

    For details or additional info......

    nik@wisconsincarry.org

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    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 10-17-2011 at 10:41 AM.
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    Regular Member Viper's Avatar
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    He probably didn't post it here as not all who post and read these forums are WCI members. I am a charter member myself.
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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viper View Post
    He probably didn't post it here as not all who post and read these forums are WCI members. I am a charter member myself.
    Yep.... Thats what I was thinking and why I did not copy and paste the E-mail here...

    Outdoorsman1
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman
    There are some "restictions" that will be asked of any volunteers.
    Yeah... and as those restrictions stand now, I know for sure 2 qualified instructors who won't be volunteering for WCI even though they're members.
    Probably more than that.
    Hopefully, as with the DOJ, the rules will get straightened out soon.
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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Question ? What Restrictions?

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Yeah... and as those restrictions stand now, I know for sure 2 qualified instructors who won't be volunteering for WCI even though they're members.
    Probably more than that.
    Hopefully, as with the DOJ, the rules will get straightened out soon.
    What "Restrictions" would stop someone from volunteering?
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    My apologies... I was just informed the link to Nik's e-mail in the OP did not work...

    Here it is again... if link does not work just cut and paste to send him an e-mail....

    nik@wisconsincarry.org"]nik@wisconsincarry.org"]nik@wisconsincarry.org




    Outdoorsman1
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 10-17-2011 at 11:53 PM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

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  7. #7
    McX
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    i'm not qualified to teach much of anything. but i have offered the shop building for a place to meet for class. i'd say we could stuff 20 or so in there.

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    Restrictions were that you never charge a fee as a WCI instructor, and that if you do decide to start charging, that you surrender your WCI instructor cert.

    I'd apply, but I've never taken a formal course in firearms anything.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Question Let's See If I Got This Right....

    Quote Originally Posted by rcav8r View Post
    Restrictions were that you never charge a fee as a WCI instructor, and that if you do decide to start charging, that you surrender your WCI instructor cert.

    I'd apply, but I've never taken a formal course in firearms anything.

    ... So we get our certification to be a WCI Concealed Carry Instructor from the efforts/monies of Wisconsin Carry, INC so we can teach concealed carry courses to Wisconsin Carry members for free.....and if we ever do want to get paid for concealed carry instruction we have to surrender our WCI Concealed Carry Instructor certificate. I have absolutely no problem with that.

    For the past year or more we (Wisconsin Carry members) have been discussing this very thing and how we did not want to have to pay for training....and now that Wisconsin Carry is working hard to get some instructors certified for this free training some of us are not going to volunteer to be instructors because we want to make money doing this? I'm astounded at some of my fellow Wisconsin Carry members who won't volunteer because they cannot make money off of Wisconsin Carry.

    I hope those that want to make money as a WCI instructor never sign up for a "Free" Wisconsin Carry Concealed Firearms Course.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    ... So we get our certification to be a WCI Concealed Carry Instructor from the efforts/monies of Wisconsin Carry, INC so we can teach concealed carry courses to Wisconsin Carry members for free.....and if we ever do want to get paid for concealed carry instruction we have to surrender our WCI Concealed Carry Instructor certificate. I have absolutely no problem with that.

    For the past year or more we (Wisconsin Carry members) have been discussing this very thing and how we did not want to have to pay for training....and now that Wisconsin Carry is working hard to get some instructors certified for this free training some of us are not going to volunteer to be instructors because we want to make money doing this? I'm astounded at some of my fellow Wisconsin Carry members who won't volunteer because they cannot make money off of Wisconsin Carry.
    I hope those that want to make money as a WCI instructor never sign up for a "Free" Wisconsin Carry Concealed Firearms Course.
    I don't think it is a "make money off of WCI issue, rather than they cannot make money (on their own) from the general public if they volunteer to be a WCI instuctor. Some already have their instuctors certification which would be null and void for use in instructing the general public as long as they were instructing for WCI... based on the WCI "restictions". Perhaps if WCI included already certified instuctors could teach WCI students for free and still be able to teach the general public for a fee, then maybe those instuctors would be 1st. in line to volunteer...

    Just Sayin....

    Just my thought ... as always.... I could be wrong.

    Outdoorsman1

    Edited to add... Oppps... I forget that we are still dealing with the DOJ whos has not yet even cerifed ANY instuctors
    Last edited by Outdoorsman1; 10-18-2011 at 02:45 PM.
    "On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait - and waiting, died."

    George Cecil (1891–1970) American advertising copywriter

    Outdoorsman1
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    Member: Silver Lake Sportsmans Club
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  11. #11
    McX
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    i'm getting ALOT of inquireries from everybody around here; my standard reply is you can pay big bucks and get a class, or you can join Wisconsin Carry, and get the class for free when the instructors come to our district. looks like the shop may be packed with people when a class comes here. hell, i'll take the class too! i'll be here, now wont i?

  12. #12
    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    ... So we get our certification to be a WCI Concealed Carry Instructor from the efforts/monies of Wisconsin Carry, INC so we can teach concealed carry courses to Wisconsin Carry members for free.....and if we ever do want to get paid for concealed carry instruction we have to surrender our WCI Concealed Carry Instructor certificate. I have absolutely no problem with that.

    For the past year or more we (Wisconsin Carry members) have been discussing this very thing and how we did not want to have to pay for training....and now that Wisconsin Carry is working hard to get some instructors certified for this free training some of us are not going to volunteer to be instructors because we want to make money doing this? I'm astounded at some of my fellow Wisconsin Carry members who won't volunteer because they cannot make money off of Wisconsin Carry.

    I hope those that want to make money as a WCI instructor never sign up for a "Free" Wisconsin Carry Concealed Firearms Course.
    yep, i asked if i could get paid in cheeseburgers, and they said buy your own damn burgers. i'm cool with that. i'm not going to teach anyway, just attend. the honor is to serve.

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Question Here Is What The Email States....

    Quote Originally Posted by Outdoorsman1 View Post
    I don't think it is a "make money off of WCI issue, rather than they cannot make money (on their own) from the general public if they volunteer to be a WCI instuctor. Some already have their instuctors certification which would be null and void for use in instructing the general public as long as they were instructing for WCI... based on the WCI "restictions". Perhaps if WCI included already certified instuctors could teach WCI students for free and still be able to teach the general public for a fee, then maybe those instuctors would be 1st. in line to volunteer...

    Just Sayin....

    Just my thought ... as always.... I could be wrong.

    Outdoorsman1

    Edited to add... Oppps... I forget that we are still dealing with the DOJ whos has not yet even cerifed ANY instuctors
    I had to go look it up to be sure so I copied and pasted it:

    Snip: "If you intend to submit a resume to become a certified WCI instructor we are going to require that you may NEVER use your WCI certification to teach any class besides ours and you may never charge a fee for certifying anyone using your WCI certification. You may not solicit anyone who participates in the WCI training course for any other paid services that you may offer related to firearms training or selling related products."

    And this: "If in the future a WCI instructor would like to offer training services for a fee, they will need to surrender their WCI certification and obtain certification from a different state or national organization that certifies firearms instructors."

    My thoughts are that Nik meant a person could not use the WCI certificate and would have to surrender it and get another in order to teach concealed carry for a fee. I'm thinking that Nik was assuming those who applied to become WCI instructors have no concealed carry instructor certification when they applied and their only certification would be a WCI certification.

    It shouldn't be too difficult to clear this up. I will email Nik and ask.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

  14. #14
    McX
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    So! RAK you gonna teach? we'll use my shop, pack the place, it will look like occupy the auto-shop! i'll bet we'll have to hold a number of classes to get everyone through. this is going to be BIG! we must speak of this at our next socialization!

    addedon edit; i think we'll make a bundle off the movie rights anyway. i can see the local paper now:
    police responded to a large crowd surounding, and in an auto repair shop today, upon their arrival they found hundreds of law abiding citizens waiting to take the Wisconsin Carry permit class.
    Last edited by McX; 10-18-2011 at 03:27 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Thumbs up I Will If I Am Selected.....

    Quote Originally Posted by McX View Post
    So! RAK you gonna teach? we'll use my shop, pack the place, it will look like occupy the auto-shop! i'll bet we'll have to hold a number of classes to get everyone through. this is going to be BIG! we must speak of this at our next socialization!

    addedon edit; i think we'll make a bundle off the movie rights anyway. i can see the local paper now:
    police responded to a large crowd surounding, and in an auto repair shop today, upon their arrival they found hundreds of law abiding citizens waiting to take the Wisconsin Carry permit class.
    I would definitely volunteer my time and service to do this. There are several places we can have small classes up to 50 people. Think of Lizzy's. I'm sure Adam and Lizzy will be happy to accommodate a group of us after normal hours if we ask and plan ahead. No charge for the course instruction but we would most likely have to donate something for use of their facility.

    The lobby in your facility can seat a bunch of people nicely. Heck, people could bring their cars in for oil changes while the class is going on. I am looking forward to getting this training going and getting as many people as possible "Wisconsin" certified!
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    McX
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    I would definitely volunteer my time and service to do this. There are several places we can have small classes up to 50 people. Think of Lizzy's. I'm sure Adam and Lizzy will be happy to accommodate a group of us after normal hours if we ask and plan ahead. No charge for the course instruction but we would most likely have to donate something for use of their facility.

    The lobby in your facility can seat a bunch of people nicely. Heck, people could bring their cars in for oil changes while the class is going on. I am looking forward to getting this training going and getting as many people as possible "Wisconsin" certified!
    no work for me while classes are going on. we'll need the bay areas for space for people anyway. no donation needed to me. the honor is to serve. just the movie rights (har-har). and no shooting at stuff in the building.
    Last edited by McX; 10-18-2011 at 11:06 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Lightbulb About the "Restrictions"....This Should Settle The Questions Asked By Some...

    I emailed Nik and asked about the restrictions. I am not posting his entire response but will post the portions pertaining to the questions about the use of a certificate from an organization other than WCI.

    This from Nik: "If someone is an NRA instructor and they want to offer "paid" training services one day, and then come teach our class for free the next day, that is OK but they may not solicit any of the class attendee's for business. They can't stand in front of a group of people that WCI's free training brought in front of them and try to make money or gain customers from it."

    And this: "We don't want guys who are willing to come teach a class for free only because at the class they can hand out their NRA instructor card and soft-sell additional services/have a bunch of follow up business derived from our class. They can go make money with their NRA certification the next day, but they have to keep complete separation from the volunteer work they do for us. They need to market themselves and their services completely independently from our class."

    One more: "People who have no other certification other than the WCI certification would have to go get certification if they want to teach a class that meets the state training requirement."


    I hope this settles the questions about the "restrictions".
    Last edited by rcawdor57; 10-18-2011 at 04:41 PM. Reason: grammar
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    Yellow Cat's Thoughts

    I believe Nik and WI Carry Inc are now experiencing the wrong execution of the right idea.

    Yes, WI Carry members should receive WI CWP instruction for free. But, as an NRA Instructor and a Utah CFP Instructor, I am not going to give up my right to instruct WI residents to obtain a UT CFP, an NRA Certificate, or my widely coveted "Golfing with Glocks" point shooting course just to keep a WI CARRY instructor rating. Indeed, as an earlier post by MKEGAL suggested, I will not even apply. I will continue to offer the UT Concealed Firearm Permit Course to WI residents at really low fees, but damn it, contributing $5 (for Purple Heart or DAV Military - and up to $40 for those who do not support any 2A Groups) to my gas and motel bill to go to WI is not too much to ask.

    If I conducted a WI Concealed Carry Course for free, and happened to mention that I can also conduct a UT CFP course at the end of the WI Course, for deeply discounted prices - that action would get my WI Certification revoked. OK - that is the decision of WCI and thus, I will not apply for WCI certification.

    Yellow Cat (a very experienced firearms instructor) - OUT
    My cats support the Second Amendment. NRA Life Member, NRA Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, & Personal Protection - NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, Utah BCI Certified Concealed Firearm Permit Instructor.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57
    What "Restrictions" would stop someone from volunteering?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik
    "If in the future a WCI instructor would like to offer training services for a fee, they will need to surrender their WCI certification and obtain certification from a different state or national organization that certifies firearms instructors."
    Exactly. If it's a choice between having certification from a long-established established national org [NRA] or state department [Utah BCI] (so I can not only teach people to be safe, but also pay bills), or WCI, I'll keep the higher certification.
    I already volunteer my time w/ an NRA-affiliated nonprofit & offer discounts to WCI members.
    But if this gets straightened out, I'll also do WCI training (if approved, of course).
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  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Please Read My Previous Post With The Responses I Posted From Nik...

    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Exactly. If it's a choice between having certification from a long-established established national org [NRA] or state department [Utah BCI] (so I can not only teach people to be safe, but also pay bills), or WCI, I'll keep the higher certification.
    I already volunteer my time w/ an NRA-affiliated nonprofit & offer discounts to WCI members.
    But if this gets straightened out, I'll also do WCI training (if approved, of course).
    I answered this question in my previous post. You can have dozens of training certificates if you wish. WCI doesn't want you to surrender your training certificate(s) in order to provide free WCI training with a WCI instructor certificate. Any instructor can give paid training using their "other" certificates and then give WCI free training with their WCI instructor certificate. The idea is that if people are gathered for the WCI free training that that is what they will get. WCI doesn't want those attending the free training to be inundated by an instructor for paid services or products during that training event.

    This is an opportunity for WCI to introduce literally thousands of people to concealed carry at minimal cost to those attending. We should be concentrating on increasing the numbers of those people that wish to carry a firearm or other legal concealed weapon with the lowest cost involvement to them as possible. Training is a BIG cost to some of us in this state, especially with the lousy economy and where or whom you get the training from. If a person only has to pay for their mileage and time to get training for a concealed weapon how many more people will do just that? This will also raise the membership of Wisconsin Carry to unforeseen numbers.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

    “Today, we need a nation of Minutemen. Citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.”

    —John F. Kennedy

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    Edited: rcawdor57 beat me to it! I really need to learn how to type faster!





    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Exactly. If it's a choice between having certification from a long-established established national org [NRA] or state department [Utah BCI] (so I can not only teach people to be safe, but also pay bills), or WCI, I'll keep the higher certification.
    It doesn't look like that is the case. Seems having a WCI cert and other certifications is just fine. Looks like all their asking is when you teach a free WCI class is that you don't up sell your other classes or products. My guess is if they didn't stipulate that, instructors would sign up and teach the very minimum and turn it into a huge commercial for their other training. As the email pointed out instructers looking just to sell there big money advance courses would sign up just for the potential customer base and not because they believe people have the right to protection without infringement.

    The other restriction is you can't teach a class for profit while "wearing" you WCI instructor cap, seems reasonable to me just toss on your BCI or NRA cap and be good.

    Since WCI is a non-profit volunteer group and their asking for volunteers to teach a free course for the public, I like the idea they are trying to keep it pure. I do hope they allow for donation box's.




    I already volunteer my time w/ an NRA-affiliated nonprofit & offer discounts to WCI members.
    But if this gets straightened out, I'll also do WCI training (if approved, of course).
    I think just offering classes at a reduced rate is above and beyond. Even if free classes for the public take off, a lot of members would still want or need better training and yourself, JPM and others will be the first place to look. My guess is the free training will be basic just to get people protected and most will seek further instruction.
    Last edited by Jason in WI; 10-19-2011 at 11:51 AM.

  22. #22
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    Personally, I'd have no problem teaching a free class if I were a WCI instructor. I'd consider it a service to the community, even if that community is limited to WCI members.
    Firearms safety classes are not something I'd consider doing as a money maker, so doing the occasional free class wouldn't bother me.
    Although I mentioned previously that I didn't have any formal training and wouldn't pursue a WCI instructor cert, doesn't mean I can't volunteer to help out at future classes after I've gone through.

    I'd expect there would be an initial "flood" of members taking classes, then slowing down to a trickle in a few months, to the point that classes may actually be rare. Especially if they get rid of the training time, face to face, and other rules and enforce the law as written.

  23. #23
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcawdor57 View Post
    What "Restrictions" would stop someone from volunteering?
    For one, If I am an NRA Instructor, certified by WCI to do free training, I cannot mention ANY of the other courses that I maybe certified to teach.


    Training is good. More training is better, but by volunteering to do free classes, I am prohibited from mentioning any possible further training.

    WCI just lost alot of persons that wanted to volunteer.

  24. #24
    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    The rules set forth by WCI would prohibit a WCI Certified instructor from mentioning that they teach classes other than than free WCI class.

    I disagree with that.

    An instructor should be able to say, " This is a free WCI course and is all you need to get a CWL in Wisconsin. If anyone would like more comprehensive training, I suggest that you seek it out. I offer other classes that are not required for a fee." But under the WCI rules, they cannot.

    If WCI want to get as many people permitted as possible, they will need to relax this prohibition a lil' bit.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 10-19-2011 at 02:25 PM.

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