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Thread: Henderson Library

  1. #1
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Henderson Library

    After many open carries in the Gibson Library in Henderson, tonight I was told by the security guard that "firearms are not allowed in the Library". Now I have seen this same guy numerous times while in there OC, maybe 20+. He even admitted to me that he has seen me many, many times but never noticed I was OC. (Kind of makes you feel safe and secure huh?) I tried to tell him that he was incorrect and he told me it was Library rules, then asked me if I had a "card". I assumed he was talking about CC permit. I told him that I did not need one to OC. I later figured out he was talking about a blue card. I explained to him that I had worked with the City Attorney's office regarding this, and I could get a copy of a letter from ACA Zentz that would explain things to him. He said that they had their own set of rules. He wasn't going to hear any of it. He then went and got the head gal who scrunched up her face and told me I could not have a gun in the library and that it was Library rules. I tried again to explain State Pre-emption and she sure didn't want to hear that. I mentioned that as a City facility she could not deny my access based on my firearm. She proceeded to tell me that the library is not owned by the city of Henderson that it was owned by the Henderson Library district. We went around on that for a while and as amazing as it seems, she really doesn't know who owns it. I told them that they could tell me to leave and I would have to under trespass laws but not because I had my firearm. At this point security then said he would call the police to sort it out. I told him that would be a good idea. I then left the building and stood outside to await the cops. My wife waited inside and listened to the librarian make the man with a gun call.

    The cops came, 2 of them, no lights, no sirens, no hurry. The guard told them why they called. He asked me to step over to his SUV, which I did. He then asked me if he could remove my firearm and secure it for officer safety. I told him I objected to the seizure of my property. He said he was not seizing it just securing it until he could sort things out. I told him I would lock it in my car, he asked where it was and I pointed to it right next to his. He said that would be fine, no problem at all. I put it on my front seat and locked the door. He asked me if I had a blue card and I told him I am not required to carry one that it is just a receipt for registration. He said "ok, no problem, your right". He asked me for ID and I told him I was not carrying it ( I put it in my briefcase in the car before they arrived). He asked my name and I told him. He asked me things like do I live in Henderson and for how long. My wife told me the function my kids were there for was about to start. He asked me if my kids were inside and I told him yes, 5 of them. He asked for my address and I gave it to him. (Yes, I know I'm not required to but I had a reason for it.)

    I explained to him my side and told him that I had spent a year working with the C.A.'s office on this issue. He could get in touch with Chief Chambers as she and I have corresponded on the subject as well. I handed him the copy of the letter from ACA Zentz stating that they were changing the city policy. Both cops read it. They called their sergeant after which they called the library people over. I don't know exactly what was said, but they did not look happy about what they were being told. After that the police officers came back over to me. The bottom line is nobody, not them, not the library people or the sergeant on the phone had any idea who owns the library. We had a discussion about trespass and that if it is not a true "public" building that I could be trespassed if I didn't leave when asked. I told him that I was fully aware of trespass laws and quoted it to them.

    I told the police that I would not re-enter the library armed until it was established for certain just who owns it. If it is publically owned as I can't believe it isn't, then I would holster up again. This seemed to satisfy them.

    As the police were leaving the security guard asked him "he can come back in with his gun then?" I think the police told him what our agreement was and that was the end of the story. Of course this was slightly edited for brevity.

    I must say that the police in this situation did a great job. I am going to write Chief Chambers to let her know of the excellent job these two officers did in handling this situation. They did their job without pushing their weight around and being very respectful to all parties. Very professional. They thanked me several times for being cooperative. In my opinion this is a direct reflection on the chain of command.

    I will update as I get a copy of the incident report and find out just who the ^&** owns the place. Until then I would advise staying clear with OC as not to inflame things.



    TBG
    Last edited by The Big Guy; 11-21-2011 at 04:57 PM.
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    I'm not real sure where this library is... but the Assessor page says that 240 South Water Street (NW corner of S Water and Basic) is owned by City of Henderson http://sandgate.co.clark.nv.us/AssrR...nInstance=pcl7 .

    Maybe you'd have better luck locating it on the assessor Page? http://redrock.co.clark.nv.us/assrrealprop/site.aspx I can't seem to find an accurate address, nor a map that shows the place that isn't listed as closed. If you can, and share it, I'll gladly poke around some more and see what I can find.

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    Regular Member NavyMike's Avatar
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    Ownership

    The devil can be found in the details of their financial reports.

    http://www.mypubliclibrary.com/catal.../CAFR_FY10.pdf


    The library is owned by Henderson District Public Libraries.(HDPL).
    In turn, HDPL is an independent governmental unit. Its board of trustees consists entirely of political appointees, its employees are public employees and the vast majority of its income comes from taxes.
    cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    HDPL was established and operates as an independent governmental unit under authority of NRS 379. Governed by a 7 member board of trustees who are appointed by the County Commissioners (5 members to 4 year terms) and the City of Henderson City Council (2 members to 3 year terms). Taxing authority from what I can tell comes under the county. District boundaries are established by the state legislature.

    HDPL is not considered a component unit of any other governmental unit under criteria established by governmental accounting standards board statement number 14, the financial reporting entity.

    This is a real convoluted system and I really wonder how it's structure is even legal. Basically from what I have read so far you pay for it through your taxes but you have no say in its operation. It raises lots of questions. As it is paid for by taxes is it truly independent? Since it is essentially its own authority, not really county, not really city, does the NRS cover it with regards to pre-emption as it does county and local governments?

    This is going to take some work.


    TBG
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    I think the Clark county lib system is like this as well. not sure either how it changes things.

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    Regular Member john-in-reno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    HDPL was established and operates as an independent governmental unit under authority of NRS 379. Governed by a 7 member board of trustees who are appointed by the County Commissioners (5 members to 4 year terms) and the City of Henderson City Council (2 members to 3 year terms). Taxing authority from what I can tell comes under the county. District boundaries are established by the state legislature.

    HDPL is not considered a component unit of any other governmental unit under criteria established by governmental accounting standards board statement number 14, the financial reporting entity.

    This is a real convoluted system and I really wonder how it's structure is even legal. Basically from what I have read so far you pay for it through your taxes but you have no say in its operation. It raises lots of questions. As it is paid for by taxes is it truly independent? Since it is essentially its own authority, not really county, not really city, does the NRS cover it with regards to pre-emption as it does county and local governments?

    This is going to take some work.


    TBG
    The fact still remains it was established by NRS 379! There for it is still governed by state law!

    NRS 379.120 Library to be free and accessible to public; regulations of governing authority. The library and reading room shall forever be and remain free and accessible to the people of the city, subject to such reasonable rules and regulations as the governing authority may adopt.

    [6:48:1956]—(NRS A 1967, 1064)
    now it does say "subject to such reasonable rules and regulations as the governing authority may adopt", but says nothing about the regulation of guns anywhere in NRS 379.

    in NRS244.364, 268.418 and 269.222 all state " 1. Except as otherwise provided by specific statute" so as far as I see the library can not regulate firearms in any way, shape or form because there is nothing in NRS 379 or NAC 379 for that matter, even though NAC don't matter much to us.

    REGIONAL LIBRARIES

    NRS 379.142 “Political subdivision” defined. As used in NRS 379.142 to 379.146, inclusive, “political subdivision” means a consolidated, county, city, town, or county library district, or legally established libraries therein.

    (Added to NRS by 1959, 280; A 1965, 430; 1985, 12)
    NRS 379.143 Establishment and maintenance by agreement; apportionment of expenses; custody of money.
    1. Any two or more political subdivisions may join in establishing and maintaining a regional library through a written joint agreement of their governing bodies.

    2. The agreement shall provide for the fair apportionment of expenses and that the treasurer or other fiscal officer of one of the participating political subdivisions shall be selected as treasurer of the regional library and shall have custody of the funds of the regional library.
    (Added to NRS by 1959, 280)
    The way I see your library set up is as a regional library that is maintained by the county and the city because you stated that that the county commissioners appointed several people and the city council appointed several people there for it is run by the county and city and have to abide by NRS244.364 and NRS268.418.
    http://washoecountygunrights.blogspot.com/

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    Nrs 379.120 is what the clark county lib through at me. I kind of let it stop at tat for a bit. I had contacted the Nevada ACLU and they didn't want it. I have contacted my elected reps and heard nothing. So looks like both systems are hanging hats on something they can't ,but I don't know hat the next move should be.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegassteve View Post
    Nrs 379.120 is what the clark county lib through at me. I kind of let it stop at tat for a bit. I had contacted the Nevada ACLU and they didn't want it. I have contacted my elected reps and heard nothing. So looks like both systems are hanging hats on something they can't ,but I don't know hat the next move should be.
    As I said, it is convoluted. This may be a good test for our new Nevada association.
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    Hmmmm . . .

    1) It is a "public" library.
    2) It is owned by a library system which was created by governmental action, and is taxpayer-funded.

    I would say that the Reasonable and Prudent Person would assume that it is not a private operation, thus is covered under the restriction on gun bans in government buildings.

    Unless and until THEY provide proof otherwise, I would continue to carry there. That is, if they claim that they are not bound by the law, they are the ones who must prove it, you aren't required to prove that they are. The rule on this is that they are claiming authority to deny you access, and must defend that claim if you question that.

  10. #10
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    Hmmmm . . .

    1) It is a "public" library.
    2) It is owned by a library system which was created by governmental action, and is taxpayer-funded.

    I would say that the Reasonable and Prudent Person would assume that it is not a private operation, thus is covered under the restriction on gun bans in government buildings.

    Unless and until THEY provide proof otherwise, I would continue to carry there. That is, if they claim that they are not bound by the law, they are the ones who must prove it, you aren't required to prove that they are. The rule on this is that they are claiming authority to deny you access, and must defend that claim if you question that.
    1) Yes it is.
    2)Yes it was, and is.

    Ah, but they are not reasonable and prudent, (unfortunately). Herein lies the rub, they are not county, they are not city, they are not state. As it says, they are a government unto themselves. HUH? What? .

    Well unfortunately I know of no statute under pre-emption that directly applies to them, (SEEMINGLY). There is nothing covering them as a state entity as they are not a state entity. They are not covered under NRS 244.364 as they are not county. They are not pre-empted under NRS 268.418 as they are not city.

    Even more important than the immediate access with firearms is how the heck can this setup be legal? Established by the state who set the boundaries
    with appointed directors from County and City, and funded by a special County tax as they have no taxing authority of their own?????

    I know what you are saying, and my inclination would be to say combined County/City as they appoint the directors and raise the funds, but they have no say in the operation and as far as I can tell the library property is not owned by either city or county. How can the county tax all the citizens of the county as the boundaries lie exclusively within the City of Henderson??? Confusing.

    The police were obviously confused as well. If it is a government unto themselves, what right do they have to expect city services, police, fire, etc. ???

    This is making my head hurt...


    TBG
    Last edited by The Big Guy; 10-20-2011 at 12:35 AM.
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    Regular Member Sabotage70's Avatar
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    I know for a fact that it was built with public funds. Because if you weren't union you got paid prevailing wage.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabotage70 View Post
    I know for a fact that it was built with public funds. Because if you weren't union you got paid prevailing wage.
    Public funds yes, they get money from a special county tax that funds them. They also raise money through donations, fines and book sales.

    That still does not answer who's authority they are under, if any.

    TBG
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    NRS 379.143 Establishment and maintenance by agreement; apportionment of expenses; custody of money.
    1. Any two or more political subdivisions may join in establishing and maintaining a regional library through a written joint agreement of their governing bodies.
    The way I see your library set up is as a regional library that is maintained by the county and the city because you stated that that the county commissioners appointed several people and the city council appointed several people there for it is run by the county and city, so either way they have to abide by NRS244.364 and NRS268.418.

    so the county pays for part of the cost and the city pays for part of the cost, kind of like a partnership, so either way they have to follow the law
    http://washoecountygunrights.blogspot.com/

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  14. #14
    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john-in-reno View Post
    The way I see your library set up is as a regional library that is maintained by the county and the city because you stated that that the county commissioners appointed several people and the city council appointed several people there for it is run by the county and city, so either way they have to abide by NRS244.364 and NRS268.418.

    so the county pays for part of the cost and the city pays for part of the cost, kind of like a partnership, so either way they have to follow the law
    You may just be on to something there with NRS 379.143.

    I'm going to send the library trustees/ board members a letter siting NRS 379.143and how NRS244.364 and NRS268.418 apply to them. I don't expect them to cooperate But it is the initial shot.

    Anyone with other ideas?

    TBG
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    I'd like to re-offer the idea that perhaps a simple look up into who owns the building could solve a lot of this problem. As I said before, being unfamiliar with this library, I'm unable to determine it's address, or location on a map for that matter. However, if somebody could clarify those points to me, we could locate it and determine who owns the building.

    If the building is government owned, that's a huge step in the right direction. They could have leased it to whomever, and then the leaseholder chooses the rules, but that lease should be public info if it's a govt owned building. Seems to be a viable avenue for gaining facts rather than waxing poetic about it.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmijackso View Post
    I'd like to re-offer the idea that perhaps a simple look up into who owns the building could solve a lot of this problem. As I said before, being unfamiliar with this library, I'm unable to determine it's address, or location on a map for that matter. However, if somebody could clarify those points to me, we could locate it and determine who owns the building.

    If the building is government owned, that's a huge step in the right direction. They could have leased it to whomever, and then the leaseholder chooses the rules, but that lease should be public info if it's a govt owned building. Seems to be a viable avenue for gaining facts rather than waxing poetic about it.

    From what I can tell, it is owned by the Henderson District Public Library.

    100 W. Lake Mead Parkway
    Henderson, NV 89015


    TBG
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    Regular Member john-in-reno's Avatar
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    Hope this helps

    Check out this link Big Guy, you might find it informative

    http://gisgate.co.clark.nv.us/assess...20081229:03439

    Check out what it says in the GRANT BARGAIN and SALE DEED Section

    Henderson District Public Library's, a county library established pursuant to NRS 379.010
    So from what I can tell and a official deed of sale says that you are mainly dealing with a county library but according to other things i see you are also dealing with NRS 379.143 which brings the city of Henderson into the mix as a partner, but they still have to operate under the law of NRS.

    By the way here is a site you might want to keep handy http://gisgate.co.clark.nv.us/openweb/, we have something like this here in Reno and it helps me answer so many questions on who owns what property
    http://washoecountygunrights.blogspot.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    1) Yes it is.
    2)Yes it was, and is.

    Ah, but they are not reasonable and prudent, (unfortunately).
    The Reasonable and Prudent Standard is a legal doctrine, a tool used by a judge to interpret the law where the written statute doesn't give a clear guide.

    In this case, since I don't have the actual written record to work with, I am saying that, given the above, even if I am wrong (and it turns out to be private rather that government), until they prove that to be the case a reasonable person would assume that it is governmental.

    In other words, if I were there, I would carry and wait for them to provide proof that they are exempt from the law, instead of giving them the benefit of the doubt. I would carry a copy of the law with me, show it to the cops, and simply say that if the hoplophobes can't prove that the "public library" isn't pre-empted, then they should go back to whatever they were doing and let me -- a member of the public -- peacefully enjoy the facility that I paid for with my tax dollars.

    Herein lies the rub, they are not county, they are not city, they are not state. As it says, they are a government unto themselves. HUH? What? .

    Well unfortunately I know of no statute under pre-emption that directly applies to them, (SEEMINGLY). There is nothing covering them as a state entity as they are not a state entity. They are not covered under NRS 244.364 as they are not county. They are not pre-empted under NRS 268.418 as they are not city.
    They are chartered at some level of government, and that is the level at which they are pre-empted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    You may just be on to something there with NRS 379.143.

    I'm going to send the library trustees/ board members a letter siting NRS 379.143and how NRS244.364 and NRS268.418 apply to them. I don't expect them to cooperate But it is the initial shot.

    Anyone with other ideas?

    TBG
    Yeah -- just GO. It's THEIR problem, not yours. You only need to deal with the police, not with the hoplophobes, and unless the police go out on that limb (which they aren't likely to do), you have no reason to stop carrying.

    Sounds like a good place for an OC Day. Even better, many public libraries have meeting rooms available for use, free or at a nominal price. Hold a meeting there for the ad hoc group that is going to deal with the Clark County Commisars, and go OC when you do.

    "I don't want to get any messages saying 'we're holding our ground.' Let the ENEMY do that . . !" -- Patton the Elder

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    Quote Originally Posted by john-in-reno View Post
    So from what I can tell and a official deed of sale says that you are mainly dealing with a county library but according to other things i see you are also dealing with NRS 379.143 which brings the city of Henderson into the mix as a partner, but they still have to operate under the law of NRS.
    The only thing that counts is whether the library is a public entity. Private parties can and frequently do rent or lease public space, and when they do, that space is considered private. This is how they can charge people to attend Geek Week on the Playa, or the Air Races at Stead. While both of these are held in public land, the organizers have paid for the right of control.

    If the library is a private organization, such as a non-profit, it doesn't matter who the landlord is, as far as pre-emption goes. They would have the same rights as a private business.

    I'm betting that, in fact, the library is operating on a standard governmental charter, the same as a school district does. If the board members are elected by public vote, they definitely are governmental.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    Yeah -- just GO. It's THEIR problem, not yours. You only need to deal with the police, not with the hoplophobes, and unless the police go out on that limb (which they aren't likely to do), you have no reason to stop carrying.

    Sounds like a good place for an OC Day. Even better, many public libraries have meeting rooms available for use, free or at a nominal price. Hold a meeting there for the ad hoc group that is going to deal with the Clark County Commisars, and go OC when you do.

    "I don't want to get any messages saying 'we're holding our ground.' Let the ENEMY do that . . !" -- Patton the Elder
    I understand what you're saying and in a perfect world your method would be correct. Unfortunately this is a political problem. I as a member of the freedom/OC movement want to make sure that we seem reasonable in our methods particularly by the police. I don't want them to get tired of being called on things like this. What I want is for them to think that I am a reasonable person working to correct what I believe to be wrong, not just some troublemaker.

    The HPD has shown itself to be generally cooperative with OC and in my experience with them, unlike other Police in CC, are well trained and generally helpful and respectful to citizens. I don't want that to change. It would not benefit us. We don't need to make enemys out of friends.

    On a personal level, my life is very busy. I don't need to be arrested and have to pay for a lawyer to bail me out. I have no doubt I would walk, but I don't have the time or resources to fight it out that way. I will have to go my route. Although at this point I think it would be counterproductive anyone is free to make the fight their way.


    Thanks for your input.

    TBG
    Last edited by The Big Guy; 10-20-2011 at 03:30 PM.
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    This may prove useful.

    It seems Thomas F. Fay is the Administrator of the Henderson District Public Libraries as seen here http://www.mypubliclibrary.com/catal.../managers.aspx

    A quick search of the name brings up the following Nevada Financial Disclosure Statement http://www.ethics.nv.gov/COE_website...2011.01.06.pdf

    It appears he's appointed to the public office for the Henderson District Public Libraries. Logically this means that HDPL is a government run group, and since his office is public, so should be said buildings, right?

    edit: Also, on his own LinkedIn account, he lists his job as "Government Administration". So by his own admission he's administering a government agency.
    Last edited by gmijackso; 10-21-2011 at 01:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    I understand what you're saying and in a perfect world your method would be correct. Unfortunately this is a political problem. I as a member of the freedom/OC movement want to make sure that we seem reasonable in our methods particularly by the police. I don't want them to get tired of being called on things like this.
    I do.

    I want them to become so tired of it that when they show up, they greet you by name and with a smile that says "This is a waste of time for both of us, won't these people stop freaking out and calling us?"

    I want them to become so tired of it that the 911 calltakers explain that if all we are doing is wearing a pistol, there is nothing to worry about, it is legal and to call back if we actually do anything dangerous.

    The cops who showed up the other day were neutral in the way they handled it. They saw you being more than reasonable, and the library staff being worried about something they didn't need to worry about. They are on the side of the reasonable people, and for that reason (and to avoid a false-arrest situation) would not arrest you. At most, they would ask you to leave until it gets sorted out. More likely, they would tell the library people the same thing that I've told you -- that it is up to them to prove that they are exempt from the pre-emption law, and until they do, more calls like this would be considered false reporting.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    I do.

    I want them to become so tired of it that when they show up, they greet you by name and with a smile that says "This is a waste of time for both of us, won't these people stop freaking out and calling us?"

    I want them to become so tired of it that the 911 calltakers explain that if all we are doing is wearing a pistol, there is nothing to worry about, it is legal and to call back if we actually do anything dangerous.

    The cops who showed up the other day were neutral in the way they handled it. They saw you being more than reasonable, and the library staff being worried about something they didn't need to worry about. They are on the side of the reasonable people, and for that reason (and to avoid a false-arrest situation) would not arrest you. At most, they would ask you to leave until it gets sorted out. More likely, they would tell the library people the same thing that I've told you -- that it is up to them to prove that they are exempt from the pre-emption law, and until they do, more calls like this would be considered false reporting.
    There never was cause to arrest me. For what? For carring a gun, nope no law there. For trespass? Nope, I was never asked to leave but just that I could not have a gun in the library. When my discussion inside was over and they told me they were going to call police I told them that it was a good idea and went outside to await them. No cause for arrest. As the police told me several times, "you're not in trouble, we don't think you have done anything wrong".

    Beating with a hammer is not allways the best way to fix something that is broken.

    TBG


    P.S. DVC, I used to be kind of a hammer and tong guy myself but over the years I've added to my aresnal of methods. Be assured I can still swing the hammer too, but not till all reason is exhasted. I don't think that is the case here as overall we are making progress. Do you know the story of the 2 bulls? I'm sorry I can't put it in perspective using that story but it would get the whole thread removed.
    Last edited by The Big Guy; 10-21-2011 at 06:09 PM.
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

  25. #25
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Michigan is going through this battle right now and it has gone to the appeals court.

    The Lansing area district library (CADL) is an authority which they claim is not a local unit of government. The Circuit Court judge agreed and said preemption doesn't apply and the Library could ban firearms. We are appealing. Search CADL on this site for more. The link below goes to a summary by our side.

    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=135653
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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