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Not open carry or firearm...but related! Va Knife laws vagueness.

DontTreadOnMeVa

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Ok, I have been researching Va. knife laws and I am very frustrated. Between the, 'any weapon of like kind', vague references to Bowie and Dirks aspects of the law...I am really at a loss to decide what I can and cant carry, so I decided if the law is vauge and bad It should be changed. I am about to send this to my senator as a first contact to see that response I get, but first I would like to get feed back from some of you.

*************************

Senator Harry B. Blevins

I am writing you today out of frustration and to request help. As a Virginian that exercises his second amendment rights, I thought researching and making sure I was complying with Va law regarding open and conceal carry of a firearm was difficult in many ways, until started looking at Va. knife laws. I am hoping you would consider sponsoring a bill that would clean up the vagueness in the law that makes impossible for someone to be sure of the legalities of Va. knife laws.

First, I would like to explain why this is important to me. So far, Va has failed to pass a parking lot bill that allows one to keep a legal firearm in ones car at their place of work. I do expect this will eventually pass once there is a shift of power in the senate, but as it is I can not carry to and from work. This opens up a large part of my day(as I travel to and from work) that I am severely impaired in my ability to exercise my basic human right to self-defense. So, I decided to look into my other, and sadly less effective, options to protect myself and my family. One of them I decided was to start carrying a knife both as a utilitarian tool and to also to double as a defensive tool, but I was surprised to find that Va knife laws was so messy.

Problems with the law currently include: One, there is a couple definitions prohibited types that are questionable, Bowie and Dirks are prohibited but not defined. Second, and made much worse is the fact also embedded in the law is the line later of 'any weapon of like kind' is also prohibited. Most officers I know, let alone jurors would not know how to define that makes given knife a Dirk or a Bowie, couple that with 'like kind' and law is so vague how is one to know if one is violating that? What is "like kind"??? I would say any knife being used for self-defense violate that in its most broad and open interpretation! As it stands, after spending quite a bit of time looking into this I am no better able to define that I can and cant legally carry regarding a given knife model. I am sure you would agree, the law should not be so vague that one can not tell if one is violating it or not.

That I would ask you for help with is sponsoring a bill(s) that would do three things. One, remove the antiquated Bowie and Dirk language from the law. Secondly, remove the 'any weapon of like kind' regarding model of knifes can be carried. This would remove the pitfall that makes nearly any knife open to interpretation as being in violation of the law. Lastly, I would ask that you sponsor a knife preemption bill for all the very same reasons that Va has firearm preemption, which I believe enjoyes your support.

Virginians deserve the law to be free of broad vagueness especially regarding issues concerning the most basic of human rights, self-defense.

For Freedom,

Will xxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Va Beach, Va. 23452

Ps-If it would be helpful I could send you a draft of such bills to consider for proposal, if that would be helpful.

***************************

So, any input, advice or suggestions?
 

Grapeshot

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There is also no state preemption of laws related to knives - local municipalities can and do enact their own ordinances.
 

peter nap

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I had this argument with Leo229 a year or so ago. As usual he has a friend who's an expert (Cops are always experts in their own minds.)

I am a knife maker and black powder shooter. I'm not an expert, I just know more than 229 or his friend!

A dirk is simple. It was derived from the Ballock dagger and is a short sword, generally 12 to 19 inches. It has a distinctive shaped hilt.
images


A bowie is a little harder. The original didn't have the distinctive clip we think of now, it was more like a long carving knife.

Later Bowie's have the abrupt clip, some with absurdly heavy blades.

AAAADC8gpIAAAAAAAAuYvw.jpg


Now what idiots with expert friends will arrest you for is open to discussion.
 
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VApatriot

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On a related topic, does anyone know if VCDL is looking at going after the useless bans on any of those other types of weapons in the coming year? I know we've tried to expand the CHP to a CWP, but it would be nice to get rid of a lot of these bans all together. I'm sure the anti-P4P crowd would much prefer it that way.

Personally, there are times and places that I would love to be able to carry a spring-loaded baton.
 

Marco

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Being this is an open carry forum the key words in 18.2-308 are " hidden from common observation".
I often carry a fixed blade knife.

A SOG Contour
www.themartialist.com/sogcontour.htm

Or

A CRKT Hissatsu
http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/hissatsu.htm


It does suck that some areas attempt to restrict personal defense tools.

The VA Supreme court has already decided these aren't weapons or weapons of like kind:


http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavwp/2074072.pdf


MCmillian Vs Commonwealth = scuba knife


Farrakhan v. Commonwealth = kitchen knife


Thompson v. Commonwealth = butterfly knife
 
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jmelvin

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Thanks for the post and request DonttreadonmeVA! This is a significant issue, which is often forgotten. Since nothing in the name of VCDL links it directly to firearms I don't see why they might not support something like this; but even if they don't take it up it's something worth pursuing!
 

DontTreadOnMeVa

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"Lastly, I would ask that you sponsor a knife preemption bill for all the very same reasons that Va has firearm preemption, which I believe enjoyes your support."


There is also no state preemption of laws related to knives - local municipalities can and do enact their own ordinances.

I know there is no state preemption related to knives, that is part of the problem in my eyes.

I had this argument with Leo229 a year or so ago. As usual he has a friend who's an expert (Cops are always experts in their own minds.)

I am a knife maker and black powder shooter. I'm not an expert, I just know more than 229 or his friend!

A dirk is simple. It was derived from the Ballock dagger and is a short sword, generally 12 to 19 inches. It has a distinctive shaped hilt.
images


A bowie is a little harder. The original didn't have the distinctive clip we think of now, it was more like a long carving knife.

Later Bowie's have the abrupt clip, some with absurdly heavy blades.

AAAADC8gpIAAAAAAAAuYvw.jpg


Now what idiots with expert friends will arrest you for is open to discussion.

...also add the "like kind" issue and then how broad does the definitions become?

Wile it is nice that a kitchen knife or a suba knife is found in a case to be not a concealed weapon....that does not help in illumiating the law specificly as to what is concealed weapon and/or of like kind to one of the specified like kinds. I would argue that if the knife is not obviously being carried for work/non-defensive reason you might be at risk to that language in the law.
 

jmelvin

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If I recall correctly the case law regarding the kitchen knife directly relates to the knife being carried as a defensive piece. I'll need to go back and re-read the case though.
 

TFred

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Lastly, I would ask that you sponsor a knife preemption bill for all the very same reasons that Va has firearm preemption, which I believe enjoyes your support.
To borrow and slightly alter a quote from Alan Gura:

"If the President can’t take your knife away and the Governor can’t take your knife away but the mayor takes your knife away, you still don’t have a knife."

TFred
 

nova

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I know we've tried to expand the CHP to a CWP, but it would be nice to get rid of a lot of these bans all together. I'm sure the anti-P4P crowd would much prefer it that way.

Personally, there are times and places that I would love to be able to carry a spring-loaded baton.

As you probably already know, a bill do do just that was introduced last legislative session. Like the state preemption bill, they didn't make it. I hope to see both of those introduced again next year. Of course I'd rather just see the whole concealed weapons law disappear altogether.
 
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peter nap

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As you probably already know, a bill do do just that was introduced last legislative session. Like the state preemption bill, they didn't make it. I hope to see both of those introduced again next year. Of course I'd rather just see the whole concealed weapons law disappear altogether.

The concealed weapons laws aren't going to disappear until the P4P faction stops feeding them!
Of course CWP isn't likely to happen without the support of the full gun community, so the whole thing is going to stagnate.
 

ocholsteroc

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brass nuckles/batons off the list too. I wish we could carry any weapon with the CHP. It's so stupid you can carry a handgun/rifle permit CC or OC no permit, yet cannot carry a baton/brass nuckles, etc.. Would love to carry a baton. I know when I go on my bike rides, sometimes this "mohawk dog" trys to get me, well she doesn't have the "mohawk" haircut anymore its coming up on winter. But she tried to bite me at the ankles a few days ago. This summer, she and this other dog, same bread, tried to attack me when I was walking. Both charged me and came within 10 feet. This is where a baton could come in handy, because you can get charged with "brandishing"
 
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peter nap

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brass nuckles/batons off the list too. I wish we could carry any weapon with the CHP. It's so stupid you can carry a handgun/rifle permit CC or OC no permit, yet cannot carry a baton/brass nuckles, etc.. Would love to carry a baton. I know when I go on my bike rides, sometimes this "mohawk dog" trys to get me, well she doesn't have the "mohawk" haircut anymore its coming up on winter. But she tried to bite me at the ankles a few days ago. This summer, she and this other dog, same bread, tried to attack me when I was walking. Both charged me and came within 10 feet. This is where a baton could come in handy, because you can get charged with "brandishing"

Where do you get Brass Knuckles and Batons.
BK's are OK OC and Batons aren't mentioned at all as far as I can see.
You do need to engrave "Not For Sale" on the Brass Knuckles to offset 18.2-311.
 
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45acpForMe

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This is what I found as far as current local ordinances. I agree that preemption is needed as well as cleanup of existing law. I don't know why anyone would care whether I carried a dirk or dagger vs another hunting knife. They are all sharp. :) I have a few fixed blade knives I would like to CC but can't because they fall into those categories.

(the board removes all spaces) :-(....--Moderator--fixed it for you : )

Amherst Co. VA 12-25 in any park to have in his possession any knife with a blade of more than three (3) inches

Ashland, VA 12-12 hidden from common observation, clasp knife having a blade more than (3 1/4) inches in length,

Chesterfield, Co. VA 15-210 to operate a taxicab at any time with a knife with a blade longer than 3"

Danville, VA 39-31. & 23-52. to operate a taxicab at any time with a knife with a blade longer than 3" / No Knife on buses and at bus stops

Farmville, VA 18-48 to have in his possession a clasp knife having a blade more than three and one-quarter (3 1/4) inches

Fauquier Co. VA 16-7 for any person to use, carry or have in his possession any knife with a blade of more than 3" in any park.

Hanover Co. VA 22.1-47. operate and drive a for-hire car with a knife with a blade longer than three (3) inches in length in his possession,

Henrico Co. VA 21-139. operate and drive a for-hire car with a knife with a blade longer than three (3) inches in length in his possession,

Norfolk, VA 47-6. on any public/private/parochial/elementary/middle/high school, including buildings & grounds, W/blade 3" or longer

Petersburg, VA 74-207. on any public/private/parochial/elementary/middle/high school, including buildings & grounds, W/blade 3" or longer

Pulaski, VA 70-132. Parades/Rallies/Noncommercial Gatherings No participant shall carry knives/edged weapons, either openly or concealed.

Richmond, VA 66-347. knife having a blade more than 3 1/4 inches in length./ drive a taxicab with a blade longer than three inches
 
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skidmark

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.... I know when I go on my bike rides, sometimes this "mohawk dog" trys to get me, well she doesn't have the "mohawk" haircut anymore its coming up on winter. But she tried to bite me at the ankles a few days ago. This summer, she and this other dog, same bread, tried to attack me when I was walking. Both charged me and came within 10 feet. This is where a baton could come in handy, because you can get charged with "brandishing"

Pepper spray. Stream rather than fog. The bigger the better. You do NOT want to get close enough to a dog to use a baton if there is any way to avoid it.

Read somewhere that dogs can suffer fatal breathing problems if peppersprayed. Too bad. Owners need to control their animals. A bite can cause serious bodily injury or death if you fall from your bike. If you take a daily aspirin (and if you are not doing that, why not?) a bite can cause fatal bleeding. Two good reasons to use a highly effective method of protecting yourself from a dog chasing you. (You do report them to animal control, don't you?)

stay safe.
 

peter nap

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Almost Skid...
Use Bear Spray. It is hotter than standard Pepper and uses a Halon Carrier that has more range but spreads more also. Stick a can in your water bottle holder. It shouldn't hurt the dog. It works better on people too.

(You do report them to animal control, don't you?)
Geeses Skid...telling him to call the dog catcher:mad:

There are levels of humanity.

Down below most are Child Molesters..

Below them come Tim Kaine, members of his staff, Dog Hunters who run dogs through other peoples property, Tax Collectors. Necrophiliacs, Satan Worshipers and people of that class..

But on the VERY BOTTOM of the trough come,
DOG CATCHERS:eek:

dog-catcher-234x300.jpg



Besides, calling them could be dangerous:
http://news.oldva.org/?p=95

[h=1]Henrico Dogcatchers Shoot Each Other[/h]
This is like a scene from the Keystone Cops. Three Dogcatchers go out to find a rabid fox. The 20 pound fox attacks one officer, all three fire and the officer being attacked, gets shot.
It’s a little hard for me to understand. I’ve killed a number of rabid animals and….was once bitten by a rabid fox. None moved fast enough to be a problem unless you’re showing off, as I was the time I was bitten. I’ve never known a fox, rabid or otherwise to carry a gun, so why was there a massive firefight?
I’ve always held the belief that anyone who wishes, should carry a gun…..I may rethink that idea!
 
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mobeewan

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Box cutters are not a "weapon of loke kind" as determined by the Virginia Supreme Court in a case that went before them a couple years ago. They said that the state legislature could add it to the list of banned concealed weapons if they wanted to but at the time it was not one. I have not seen it added to 18.2-308 yet. Don't know if any cities expressly forbid them to be carried.
 

peter nap

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Box cutters are not a "weapon of loke kind" as determined by the Virginia Supreme Court in a case that went before them a couple years ago. They said that the state legislature could add it to the list of banned concealed weapons if they wanted to but at the time it was not one. I have not seen it added to 18.2-308 yet. Don't know if any cities expressly forbid them to be carried.

That's exactly right!

Now the funny thing is that since Va. is a Dillon Rule state, all those silly a$$ Muni Laws listed above that specify blade length except as noted,are unenforceable.

They could pull a cabbies license for carrying but they couldn't charge him with a crime ..IMO.
These are the only legitimate ones in the list that I see.

Norfolk, VA 47-6. on any public/private/parochial/elementary/middle/high school, including buildings & grounds, W/blade 3" or longer

Petersburg, VA 74-207. on any public/private/parochial/elementary/middle/high school, including buildings & grounds, W/blade 3" or longer


But...we keep quoting them as if they're the Gospel.
 
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Grapeshot

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Who amongst us is going to voluntarily/consensually offer his blade to be measured?

If carrying a gun is not RAS nor PC, then neither should carrying a knife be.

Besides, my knife is a working tool of my trade. :cool:
 
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