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Thread: Roanoke City Circuit Court extralegal demands for CHP

  1. #1
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    Roanoke City Circuit Court extralegal demands for CHP

    I'll let my missive do the talking on this one. The law establishing a $50 maximum fee for a CHP application has been in effect since 1997. I wonder how many thousands of dollars in ill-gotten fees the court has collected over how many years? I guess we're about to find out.




    Ms. Hamilton:

    On Friday, October 14, I went to your office to renew my Virginia Concealed Handgun Permit. I was surprised to learn that you are charging $52 for a CHP application, as this exceeds the maximum amount that can be charged by law. A clerk named Connie explained that your office charges an additional $2 fee for copies of documents that are sent to the Roanoke Police Academy. The website for your office gives substantially the same explanation. Because I was unwilling to pay this additional fee, my application was not accepted.

    Virginia Code 18.2-308(K) clearly states that "[t]he total amount assessed for processing an application for a permit shall not exceed $50." Furthermore, the fee is itemized, with $10 allocated to the Clerk of the Court "for the processing of an application or issuing of a permit, including his costs associated with the consultation with law-enforcement agencies." (Emphasis supplied.)

    By charging an additional fee over and above the statutory maximum, you are in direct violation of state law. Moreover, because you are already receiving funds for the fee's stated purpose, the fee is completely unwarranted.

    I insist that you immediately bring the fee charged to CHP applicants into compliance with state law. I will be returning to your office on Monday, October 24 to resubmit my renewal application. I expect that when I do so I will not be illegally overcharged. I would also like to be advised of how you will be refunding applicants who have been illegally overcharged in the past.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 10-22-2012 at 12:28 PM. Reason: Title change requested by OP

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    Well done on standing firm. Let us know how it goes.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Well done. Do let us know the outcome.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Wow the Roanoke area just looks more and more hostile to peaceable people nearly every week! Please follow up with what happens. The next action will be getting the county to refund the money they've no doubt taken illegally over the years.

  5. #5
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Oh I'm going to love to see how this turns out!

    Go get 'em!


    As an aside, I just had a guy come up to me at the Richmond gun show and explain that Westmoreland County took his photo for a CHP, and then he showed me the laminated permit with photo. I hate when these clerks can't follow the law.
    Last edited by ProShooter; 10-18-2011 at 10:45 PM.
    James Reynolds

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Great catch!! Very interested to see what explanation they come up with. If they stick with their story, how far are you willing to take it?
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I believe that User (Dan Hawes) has recommended in situations like this to take two completed copies AND a witness with you to the clerks office. Have your witness video w/audio the entire procedure, making sure that the witness has seen/read the application so that their testimony will be valid on this point.

    Demand that the $50.00 and application be accepted - camera rolling.

    Whether accepted or rejected by the clerk, you have a video/audio record for use in follow-up action.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Leaving aside the debate as to whether the fingerprinting requirement is ethical in those jurisdictions where it exists, if Henrico County can process an application INCLUDING fingerprinting for that $50 fee, how can Roanoke even come close to justifying charging more for performing the same process?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    I believe that User (Dan Hawes) has recommended in situations like this to take two completed copies AND a witness with you to the clerks office. Have your witness video w/audio the entire procedure, making sure that the witness has seen/read the application so that their testimony will be valid on this point.

    Demand that the $50.00 and application be accepted - camera rolling.

    Whether accepted or rejected by the clerk, you have a video/audio record for use in follow-up action.
    The problem is getting the camera to the Clerks Office, Grape.
    Generally you have to get through the metal detectors to go there. I have an idea I want to try out tomorrow. If it works, it'll work statewide.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Can a citizen go to a local magistrate and swear out a warrant for the Clerk of the Court for this plainly documented violation of the law?

    TFred

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    Please get this info to VCDL

    Also, were you required to be photograghed? Roanoke was doing this for a while as a condition of fingerpritning or somthing - it;s not allowed, we need people to refuse and be denied their so they have standing to appeal the denial and get this nonesense stopped.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Can a citizen go to a local magistrate and swear out a warrant for the Clerk of the Court for this plainly documented violation of the law?

    TFred
    Probably not TFred.
    This is one of those laws that I keep harping about with no teeth.
    Unless you could show malfeasance, I can't think of how it could be a criminal violation so a Magistrate wouldn't have any legal footing for a warrant.

    But since this is an Administrative violation, there may be another way to enforce this. I'll know more later this morning.

    I'm going to sneak around the woods in the rain for a few hours, then I'll make a few calls.

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    Regular Member Sesrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Also, were you required to be photograghed? Roanoke was doing this for a while as a condition of fingerpritning or somthing - it;s not allowed, we need people to refuse and be denied their so they have standing to appeal the denial and get this nonesense stopped.
    When I put the spreadsheet together back in August I specifically called Roanoke City Clerk's Office to find out if they require a photograph and I was told it is required. This is also required by Botetourt County (who I also specifically called). Neither locality has the photograph requirement in their ordinance regarding concealed carry. We really need to get these changed since they are obviously addded requirements from what state law says is required.
    Last edited by Sesrun; 10-19-2011 at 05:07 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Please get this info to VCDL

    Also, were you required to be photograghed? Roanoke was doing this for a while as a condition of fingerpritning or somthing - it;s not allowed, we need people to refuse and be denied their so they have standing to appeal the denial and get this nonesense stopped.
    VCDL is aware of it Mike. If I'm not mistaken, you are a board member and so is Grapeshot.
    I know Grapeshot will bring it to the attention of the full board as he always does, and I would not expect anything less from you.
    Last edited by peter nap; 10-19-2011 at 05:48 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesrun View Post
    When I put the spreadsheet together back in August I specifically called Roanoke City Clerk's Office to find out if they require a photograph and I was told it is required. This is also required by Botetourt County (who I also specifically called). Neither locality has the photograph requirement in their ordinance regarding concealed carry. We really need to get these changed since they are obviously addded requirements from what state law says is required.
    Can you make that spread sheet available to me? It would be a big help.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Can you make that spread sheet available to me? It would be a big help.
    Grape, there is a link to it in the first post on the 'Ordinance thread' HERE

    When the Google spreadsheet link opens, in the top left corner click FILE, DOWNLOAD AS, EXCEL.... and it will save a copy to your computer.

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    Regular Member Sesrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blk97F150 View Post
    Grape, there is a link to it in the first post on the 'Ordinance thread' HERE

    When the Google spreadsheet link opens, in the top left corner click FILE, DOWNLOAD AS, EXCEL.... and it will save a copy to your computer.
    The spreadsheet can also be edited live through the original link posted in the thread above by anyone so that as many people as possible can contribute. Because of that I also try to back it up regularly on my computer just in case malicious or accidental damage ever occurs to it.

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesrun View Post
    The spreadsheet can also be edited live through the original link posted in the thread above by anyone so that as many people as possible can contribute. Because of that I also try to back it up regularly on my computer just in case malicious or accidental damage ever occurs to it.
    Got it - appreciate the feedback!
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Can a citizen go to a local magistrate and swear out a warrant for the Clerk of the Court for this plainly documented violation of the law?

    TFred
    No, because this isnt a criminal violation per se, like trespassing, imho. Its a procedural one.
    James Reynolds

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    The problem is getting the camera to the Clerks Office, Grape.
    Generally you have to get through the metal detectors to go there. I have an idea I want to try out tomorrow. If it works, it'll work statewide.
    Most chief judges issue some kind of court order barring video cameras, et al. If someone was video taping in the courthouse, they'd probably be charged with Contempt.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  21. #21
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Most chief judges issue some kind of court order barring video cameras, et al. If someone was video taping in the courthouse, they'd probably be charged with Contempt.
    Doesn't this once again raise the point of what is the court and what is everything else?

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Doesn't this once again raise the point of what is the court and what is everything else?

    TFred
    Well...yes it does TFred but finding out can get pricey. I had to pay a fine for contempt once for one of my little excursions, and can think of better ways to spend my money.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Well...yes it does TFred but finding out can get pricey. I had to pay a fine for contempt once for one of my little excursions, and can think of better ways to spend my money.
    You take your chances, and sometimes pays your money........one way or the other

    Research and calculate.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    update?

    Update please?

    FWIW, I just went into the Salem Clerk of Court's office today for a renewal...wasn't allowed to bring in, "any electronic device," on, "Judge's orders." I asked the guard about his watch...he wasn't amused. Maybe a super-8 film camera?

    Obviously they don't want the courtroom becoming a media circus, but where are the limits on this kind of B.S.?

    C.

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Good thing you don't have a pacemaker ;-)

    Roscoe
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