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Thread: Is this considered a Pistol and is in violationg of State Vs Casad ?

  1. #1
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Is this considered a Pistol and is in violationg of State Vs Casad ?

    State_v_Casad_(unpublished).pdf

    Felon with rifle arrested at Westlake Park

    Posted by Sgt. Sean Whitcomb

    On October 17th at around 6:03 p.m., West Precinct bicycle patrol officers assigned to the Occupy Seattle demonstration at Westlake Park made contact with a 40-year old man carrying a rifle case over his shoulder. Officers overheard him say that he was carrying a Ruger, an apparent reference to the firearms manufacturer. Officers made contact with the man and removed the case. A search of the case revealed an unloaded short barreled rifle with a pistol grip. Officers asked the man if he had any ammunition for the rifle and he provided them with an ammunition box that contained approximately 16 rounds.

    A routine computer check indicated that the man was a convicted felon. Officers placed the man under arrest for Violation of the Uniformed Firearms Act (VUFA), a felony weapons violation. The man was booked into King County Jail. The rifle was placed into evidence.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    First I would like to say that he likely knew it was illegal for him to be carrying a gun but as we seen in Casad where a felon was stopped with no RAS or Probable Cause was arrested and cited just to have it over turned later.
    The Police and News report this as a rifle but I am thinking this is one of the conversions that make it a handgun, any thoughts.
    Is this one of those In a Place of at (rcw 9.41.270(1) "a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons."

    I am thinking he will lose in court and the appeal process on this one due to not being in a park but while a demonstration is going on and likely in hours of dusk of not getting pretty dark at the time.
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    Not a pistol. The gun in the picture is a stainless Ruger Mini-14 with an aftermarket side-folding stock. That particular model looks to be the Butler Creek version. The Mini 14's have an 18.5" bbl, and a "Short-Barrel Rifle" is anything less than 16". Yet another instance of "Truth in the Media."

    Not enough information to go on as far as the Casad reference. My guess is if the guy was talking loud enough about his gun, calling attention to it on his own, then who knows if he volunteered all of the information and the weapon as he was approached in a "voluntary conversation."

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    I concur, that is a full-size rifle with a folding stock.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G20-IWB24/7 View Post
    Not enough information to go on as far as the Casad reference. My guess is if the guy was talking loud enough about his gun, calling attention to it on his own, then who knows if he volunteered all of the information and the weapon as he was approached in a "voluntary conversation."
    Casad volunteered his information as well to include I believe that he was a felon.
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    Well,,,

    this guy should get off...
    the point of casad, was that he was stopped without any RAS or PC...
    this guy was stopped without RAS or PC also.
    besides the ruling of casad one must also think about terry v ohio.

    the mere presence of a firearm is not RAS of a crime!

    And I can see no reason that a gun in a case could be a violation of 9.41.270! Even if he told someone what kind it was...
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    Regular Member FMCDH's Avatar
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    That is a rifle to be sure, as another said, a Mini 14, not a SBR.

    If the picture isn't accurate and it was an SBR that this guy had, that would be an additional class C Felony in this state, on top of felon in possession of a gun.

    And State v. Casad is unpublished might I remind, but the fact this guys long-gun was in a case of some kind might just help him, given he didn't give up his rights when contacted, which, it sounds as if that is exactly what he did do.

    I don't think this even closely falls within the scope of 9.41.270, being an unloaded long-gun in a case? Not unless he was making threats and showing it off to people.
    Last edited by FMCDH; 10-19-2011 at 01:17 AM.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    I do feel the stop and talk sort of speak went beyond what is allowed by law ie when law enforcement started questioning him even though there are mixed emotions on the issue he apparently is a felon and should not have been in his possession.

    I do feel officers need additional training when it comes to these matters as to observing a bit more to see if there was probable cause to question him.
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Never fear, his attorney will move to suppress the firearm as evidence.

    I see it happen all the time on "Law and Order"
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    This mornings news (fox13) stated that the accused was "overheard by others making a threat of violence". This little 911 call may have alerted seattles finest and given the PC to stop and search.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Man was jailed on suspicion of being a felon in possession of a firearm

    This is from Q13 website and appears to have a bit more information and with the Police Blotter there was no mention of threatening anyone.

    But the 40-year-old man, dressed in military fatigues when taken into custody on Monday evening, was not accused of threatening anyone with violence, Seattle Police Sergeant Sean Whitcomb said.
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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Casad was seized, clearly and without ambiguity. Several officers pointing their guns at you tends to make a 'reasonable man' believe he is not free to leave.

    It will be some time before we hear the details on the stop, but I imagine the police will claim it was a friendly chat and that they never seized him.

    As we keep saying, always ask, "Am I being detained?"
    Last edited by Mainsail; 10-19-2011 at 01:40 PM.

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    Regular Member DEROS72's Avatar
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    It is a Mini 14 rifle with a Butler creek folding stock. I have one just like it.

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEROS72 View Post
    It is a Mini 14 rifle with a Butler creek folding stock. I have one just like it.
    Yeah, but he doesn't have enough ammo for it!
    Last edited by Bookman; 10-20-2011 at 08:17 PM.
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    If that's a photo of the actual firearm involved it's a rifle.

    Per the Q13 article, the officers involved heard him say he had a Ruger and then approached him. KIRO said "A computer check revealed that the man was a convicted felon..." Since they use the word "revealed" rather than "confirmed" they may not have known he was a felon ahead of time. A couple of articles have indicated that he did not make any threats. So I'm not sure what grounds the officers can claim for detention and running his ID. To me, more than one officer approaching me and then asking for my ID is detention, whether I have the presence of mind to ask or not.

    I'm not terribly comfortable with the OWS crowd having guns at their protest given their track record on breaking the law, but that's my problem, not theirs. I'm equally concerned about lawful detention, probable cause, reasonable suspicion and so forth. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. My best guess is that the guy doesn't defend himself effectively in court and we never find out the exact sequence of events. So many minor details can make the difference between a good or bad bust, both morally and legally.

    Wait a minute, if they're playing drums and singing all of the time, does that make it an outdoor music concert? Probable cause!

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flopsweat View Post
    To me, more than one officer approaching me and then asking for my ID is detention, whether I have the presence of mind to ask or not.
    Be careful. What you consider detention has nothing to do with it. Arm yourself with information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    This mornings news (fox13) stated that the accused was "overheard by others making a threat of violence". This little 911 call may have alerted seattles finest and given the PC to stop and search.
    Actually I believe the officers themselves need to witness the threat of violence, not by what someone else says. Such as, my neighbor can't call 911 and say that I am telling people that I am going to kill someone and have the police show up to break down my door. The police can knock on my door, I can tell them to leave and they have to leave unless they personally see any evidence of a crime. Otherwise, we could be doing this to our neighbors we don't like all the time. Think of the beer summit, the police had no right to arrest that guy and legally had to walk away. They hadn't witness any issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Never fear, his attorney will move to suppress the firearm as evidence.

    I see it happen all the time on "Law and Order"
    There was just a case about a similar situation ... in that case the felon got off because he refused to cooperate and kept his 4th/5th amendment rights as pure as possible.

    Start yapping with them & your chances go down down down.

    Hard to say what happened here.

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    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    There was just a case about a similar situation ... in that case the felon got off because he refused to cooperate and kept his 4th/5th amendment rights as pure as possible.

    Start yapping with them & your chances go down down down.

    Hard to say what happened here.
    Mr. Mcbeth,

    It is absolutely not hard to say what happened here.

    What happened here is a case of Necromania Necrophilism............someone had a perverse
    attraction for social intercourse with a long dead thread......
    THE SECOND AMENDMENT: Washington didn't use his right to free speech to defeat the British, he shot them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlGutshotWilly View Post
    Mr. Mcbeth,

    It is absolutely not hard to say what happened here.

    What happened here is a case of Necromania Necrophilism............someone had a perverse
    attraction for social intercourse with a long dead thread......
    The thread was asking for it. Just look at the way it was addressed.

  20. #20
    Regular Member 509rifas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Casad volunteered his information as well to include I believe that he was a felon.
    True.
    State v. Dustin Warren Harrington (social contacts as pretexts for fishing trips) also would come into play. If he wasn't doing anything unlawful, and as part of a "social contact" they seized him by creating circumstances where he did not feel free to leave without actual RAS and then surrendered his weapon and ID, then A1S7 was definitely breached.

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