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Thread: time for an OC meet at UW madison campus grounds

  1. #1
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    time for an OC meet at UW madison campus grounds

    From: UW-Madison Police Department [mailto:uwpolice@mhub.uwpd.wisc.edu]
    Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 13:28
    To:
    Subject: Persons With Weapons at UW Madison

    UW Madison Students, Faculty, & Staff,

    When Wisconsin’s new concealed carry law goes into effect on November 1, 2011 all weapons will remain prohibited in UW Madison buildings. If you see a person who is not a police officer in uniform carrying a weapon in a UW Madison building, call 911. As allowed by law, persons with licenses will be allowed to have weapons in parking areas and on the grounds of the university. However, do not assume a person has a license. We recommend you think “safety first” and if you err, please err on the side of calling police. Our police officers are trained to react appropriately to those legally or illegally carrying weapons. As always, call UWPD if you see suspicious behavior or someone with a weapon on UW Madison property.

    Please e-mail uwpolice@mhub.uwpd.wisc.edu if you have questions.


    Thanks,



    Chief of Police Sue Riseling
    Associate Vice Chancellor
    UW Madison

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    and how does LE react to 'legally carried' firearms? Id REALLY like to know...

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    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    I know we have a few members that understand, first hand, just how the Madison police deal with people that have 'legally carried' firearms...

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    +1000

    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    and how does LE react to 'legally carried' firearms? Id REALLY like to know...
    I emailed them and will post response.


  5. #5
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    I emailed them as well:

    In the email Chief Riseling sent out, she said "As allowed by law, persons with licenses will be allowed to have weapons in parking areas and on the grounds of the university." That is inaccurate. I do not need a license to open carry on the grounds or parking lots.

    Please stop misleading people.

    Thanks!

    --

    Paul L Fisher
    Maybe we can hang around on campus after turning in our permit applications?
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 10-19-2011 at 05:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    From: UW-Madison Police Department [mailto:uwpolice@mhub.uwpd.wisc.edu]
    Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 13:28
    To:
    Subject: Persons With Weapons at UW Madison

    UW Madison Students, Faculty, & Staff,

    When Wisconsin’s new concealed carry law goes into effect on November 1, 2011 all weapons will remain prohibited in UW Madison buildings. If you see a person who is not a police officer in uniform carrying a weapon in a UW Madison building, call 911. As allowed by law, persons with licenses will be allowed to have weapons in parking areas and on the grounds of the university. However, do not assume a person has a license. We recommend you think “safety first” and if you err, please err on the side of calling police. Our police officers are trained to react appropriately to those legally or illegally carrying weapons. As always, call UWPD if you see suspicious behavior or someone with a weapon on UW Madison property.

    Please e-mail uwpolice@mhub.uwpd.wisc.edu if you have questions.


    Thanks,



    Chief of Police Sue Riseling
    Associate Vice Chancellor
    UW Madison
    WRONG
    If you are a visitor or student, you do not have to have a license to open carry a firearm on the UW grounds or store a firearm in your car.

    Cite:
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/sta...utes/943/II/13

    (1m) Whoever does any of the following is subject to a Class B forfeiture:
    ...

    5. Enters or remains in any privately or publicly owned building on the grounds of a university or college, if the university or college has notified the actor not to enter or remain in the building while carrying a firearm or with that type of firearm. This subdivision does not apply to a person who leases residential or business premises in the building or, if the firearm is in a vehicle driven or parked in the parking facility, to any part of the building used as a parking facility.



    The exemption refers to a "person," not a licensee. In extending the exemption to "weapons" rather than firearms, though, the chief allows more than the law requires.

    For UW employees, the law does allow the employers to limit parking carry to employees who are licensees.

    ETA: Sorry for the dupe, Paul!
    Last edited by LaBomba; 10-19-2011 at 06:00 PM.

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    Explain the Rules with Regard to non-firearm Weapons


    The exemption refers to a "person," not a licensee. In extending the exemption to "weapons" rather than firearms, though, the chief allows more than the law requires.

    For UW employees, the law does allow the employers to limit parking carry to employees who are licensees.

    May a nonlicensee openly carry a billy club on UW grounds? If not, which provision of law is at play?

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    Quote Originally Posted by apjonas View Post
    May a nonlicensee openly carry a billy club on UW grounds? If not, which provision of law is at play?
    I'm not sure. Is open carry of a billy club allowed at all in WI?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
    I'm not sure. Is open carry of a billy club allowed at all in WI?
    I need a good walking stick to help my blance what billy club.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    So... I received a reply:

    Paul:

    Thanks for writing. Current Wisconsin law prohibits all weapons on the grounds or in university buildings concealed or not. As of November 1 Wisconsin law will change to allow concealed carry upon the university grounds, parking lots and garages. Open carry will still be prohibited in all areas of the University.

    Chief Riseling
    It would be nice if people read the law:

    Here is my response:

    I respectfully disagree. The law is quite specific in that open and concealed carry is treated identically. Obtaining a permit expands the places one can open carry and allows one to conceal.

    Specifically, today I cannot conceal carry period. I can open carry just about anywhere except for inside government building, places with a class-b liquor license unless I have permission from the license holder, inside of a vehicle, inside a state park, within 1000' of the edge of a K-12 school unless on private property.


    On November 1st, with a permit, I can carry inside of most government buildings (except some specific places like police stations, courtrooms while in session, etc) unless posted. There is NO distinction between open and concealed. I can also carry inside of bars on a permit as long as I am not drinking. Same with vehicles and state parks.


    941.235 Carrying firearm in public building.
    (1) Any person who goes armed with a firearm in any building owned or leased by the state or any political subdivision of the state is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) Peace officers or armed forces or military personnel who go armed in the line of duty or to any person duly authorized by the chief of police of any city, village or town, the chief of the capitol police, or the sheriff of any county to possess a firearm in any building under sub. (1). Notwithstanding s. 939.22 (22), for purposes of this paragraph, peace officer does not include a commission warden who is not a state-certified commission warden.
    (c) A qualified out-of-state law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 941.23 (1) (g), to whom s. 941.23 (2) (b) 1. to 3. applies.
    (d) A former officer, as defined in s. 941.23 (1) (c), to whom s. 941.23 (2) (c) 1. to 7. applies.
    (e) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g).


    Please note, no type of carry is mentioned, opened or concealed.


    In addition, 943.13 (1m)(c) was created as part of Act 35 and in no place does it distinguish between open and concealed carry
    943.13 (1m)(b) Enters or remains on any land of another after having been notified by the owner or occupant not to enter or remain on the premises. This paragraph does not apply to a licensee or out-of-state licensee if the owner's or occupant's intent is to prevent the licensee or out-of-state licensee from carrying a firearm on the owner's or occupant's land.
    Once again, no distinction between open and concealed.


    So... please inform your officers that they cannot even perform a Terry stop on me if I am open carrying on your (actually, as a taxpayer mine) land.



    Thanks for listening!

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    She replied:

    Paul:

    There is State Administrative Code passed by the Regents and the Legislature, that prohibits weapons on the University currently. That code will change on November 1 to allow concealed carry on the grounds (our buildings are signed). Open carry is not and will not be allowed.

    Chief Riseling
    I replied:

    66.049 would pre empty that since that would be more stringent than state law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    It would be nice if people read the law:
    Sigh...Its just the beginning Paul. After Nov 1 I have a feeling we are going to get hassled allot for not concealing, not to mention telling us we need permits even if we are not in a prohibited area (open Carrying).

    Thanks for reaching out to them, hopefully when they are looking for that no-open carry law to try and show you up they might learn something.

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    with permit u may carry a baton concealed, I'm pretty sure of. kinda hard to conceal an old style billy club.
    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot"
    -Joe Deters, Hamilton County Prosecutor


    Now I lay me down to sleep
    Beside my bed a Tuarus I keep
    If I awake to find you inside
    A coroner's van will be your next ride.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Here's the latest response. At least she writes back and is open to suggestions:

    Interesting point. Thanks for raising it. Chief R

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    Response

    Dear >>>>>,

    Thank you for writing. If you are licensed properly you will be able to carry concealed on the grounds of the University. You may not carry in the buildings (they are signed) or at special events on the grounds - when those events are signed. OPen carry is not allowed at any point on campus.

    The police officers are trained to engaged armed people who possess weapons differently than those who pose an immediate threat with a weapon. (Behavior based - possession is not a threat in and of itself).
    They are trained to deal with licensed people in possession differently than unlicensed people (once licensing has been established.)

    If you have a license to carry my suggestion - and it is just that... is to cooperate with the officers if you are questioned by them about being a licensed carrier-- or if you are carrying openly. Common sense plays into this as well. No need to continue on with that.

    Chief Riseling

    seems she is taking time to not send a boiler plate letter ..

  16. #16
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    OPen carry is not allowed at any point on campus.

    i beleive this is an error, open carry on the coming permit is valid.

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    You can open carry on campus now. I don't know where she's getting her information from that she thinks you can't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    You can open carry on campus now. I don't know where she's getting her information from that she thinks you can't.
    No you can't. Well, you could but it will cost you. It's in the Admin Rules. If one could have, I would have last year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    No you can't. Well, you could but it will cost you. It's in the Admin Rules. If one could have, I would have last year.
    Admin rules?

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    University or college, public or private
    a) Can not carry in bldgs if posted.
    b) Can carry on grounds without restriction.

    Subject to class B
    Whoever does any of the following is subject to a Class B forfeitureWhoever does any of the following is subject to a Class B forfeitureWhoever does any of the following is subject to a Class B forfeiture2. While carrying a firearm, enters or remains in any part of a nonresidential building, grounds of a nonresidential building, or land that the actor does not own or occupy after the owner of the building, grounds, or land, if that part of the building, grounds, or land has not been leased to another person, or the occupant of that part of the building, grounds, or land has notified the actor not to enter or remain in that part of the building, grounds, or land while carrying a firearm or with that type of firearm. This subdivision does not apply to a part of a building, grounds, or land occupied by the state or by a local governmental unit, to a privately or publicly owned building on the grounds of a university or college, or to the grounds of or land owned or occupied by a university or college, or, if the firearm is in a vehicle driven or parked in the parking facility, to any part of a building, grounds, or land used as a parking facility.

    943.13 (1m) (c) 2

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksks View Post
    University or college, public or private
    a) Can not carry in bldgs if posted.
    b) Can carry on grounds without restriction.

    Subject to class B
    Whoever does any of the following is subject to a Class B forfeitureWhoever does any of the following is subject to a Class B forfeitureWhoever does any of the following is subject to a Class B forfeiture2. While carrying a firearm, enters or remains in any part of a nonresidential building, grounds of a nonresidential building, or land that the actor does not own or occupy after the owner of the building, grounds, or land, if that part of the building, grounds, or land has not been leased to another person, or the occupant of that part of the building, grounds, or land has notified the actor not to enter or remain in that part of the building, grounds, or land while carrying a firearm or with that type of firearm. This subdivision does not apply to a part of a building, grounds, or land occupied by the state or by a local governmental unit, to a privately or publicly owned building on the grounds of a university or college, or to the grounds of or land owned or occupied by a university or college, or, if the firearm is in a vehicle driven or parked in the parking facility, to any part of a building, grounds, or land used as a parking facility.

    943.13 (1m) (c) 2
    Yes, that is 11/1. Today, that isn't in effect.

  22. #22
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    I replied: 66.049 would pre empty that since that would be more stringent than state law.
    66.0409 doesn't preempt the UW, since it only applies to "political subdivisions" of the state, i.e., counties, cities, villages and towns. State agencies, e.g., the University System are not preempted by 66.0409.
    A. Gold

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Yes, that is 11/1. Today, that isn't in effect.
    Sorry, I missed the "now" above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    Yes, that is 11/1. Today, that isn't in effect.
    In that case, the new law made things more restrictive, did it not? Poop.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  25. #25
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    Admin rules?
    Yes, the Administrative Rule in effect on UW System campuses is UWS 18.10(3) which reads:

    DANGEROUS WEAPONS. (a) No person may carry, possess
    or use any dangerous weapon on university lands or in university
    buildings or facilities, except with the written approval of the chief
    administrative officer or for law enforcement purposes.

    The forfeiture for violation of this rule is $500, and it authorizes the police to confiscate any weapons from violators.

    When Act 35 takes effect, it certainly will allow licensed people to conceal or open carry on UW grounds because it says licensed people can carry anywhere in the state that isn't prohibited by statute. The statute allows for posting of private and government-owned property, but it doesn't allow for posting of government lands that aren't otherwise subject to statutory restrictions. It doesn't mean that there are NO restrictions on state lands however: for example, state parks can still restrict non-licensed individuals to keeping their firearms unloaded and encased, which is the current restriction. With the usual exceptions for LEOs, beginning November 1, only licensed individuals may possess loaded and non-cased handguns in the parks.

    Whether unlicensed OC on UW grounds can be prohibited is a question. Certainly the UW has no authority to post the land because the portion of the statute that pertains to government-owned property [943.13(1m)(c)(4)] omits land and only mentions posting of buildings. Places only need to be posted when it is optional to restrict carry there. Places such as jails, prisons, courtrooms and 1-12 school grounds don't need to be posted because those restrictions are already contained elsewhere within the statutes and everyone is expected to be familiar with those restrictions without the benefit of a sign telling them.

    So the way I read it, whether the UW can continue to ban unlicensed carry on their grounds without having authority to post such a restriction is an interesting question. I think the legislative intent is to not allow any sort of prohibition on UW grounds, but whether the language of Act 35 absolutely supports that intent I'm not sure.....
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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