Richmond to use dogs to sniff for guns in Shockoe Bottom?

TFred said:

The interesting question would be what would the authors of the Fourth Amendment have thought of this? I guess they probably used dogs for hunting back then, but could they have ever foreseen senses greater than human being used for such things?

TFred

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Cmdr_Haggis said:

If one is pulled over for a traffic violation and the officer smells an odor of marijuana coming from the car, does this give probable cause or RAS to warrant a search of the vehicle?

If so, then a K9 (being a police officer itself, yes) using its nose on a pedestrian would be no different than the human officer using his nose during a traffic stop. The pooch just has a much better sense of smell.

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That's the point of my question. The enhanced sense of smell is exactly the point. Did the authors of the Fourth Amendment intend for it to remain in scope of existing detection methods at the time it was written? Obviously that is the challenge, how to apply it in the modern era where detection far exceeds what was even able to be imagined at the time.

Of course there are similar points to be made by the anti-gunners as well, but those are usually dispelled by reference to the militia and what is commonly available at this time.

TFred

Cmdr_Haggis said:

If one is pulled over for a traffic violation and the officer smells an odor of marijuana coming from the car, does this give probable cause or RAS to warrant a search of the vehicle?

If so, then a K9 (being a police officer itself, yes) using its nose on a pedestrian would be no different than the human officer using his nose during a traffic stop. The pooch just has a much better sense of smell.

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In this case, how do you cross examine the dog? :uhoh:

Grapeshot said:

In this case, how do you cross examine the dog? :uhoh:

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Exactly!

"when did you first realize the defendant might be carrying?" Woof!

"So you smelled oil and sat down?" Woof!

"Tell the court what you did next." Whimper, whine, woof!

Sent using tapatalk

For fun ...

For fun, some wiseacre should invent an aerosol spray filled with GSR.

Then take it into a parking lot and spray it around liberally.

Gives the lot that 'Range-y' aroma!

Repeater said:

For fun, some wiseacre should invent an aerosol spray filled with GSR.

Then take it into a parking lot and spray it around liberally.

Gives the lot that 'Range-y' aroma!

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Not much to invent... soak and swish your fired brass in some water, put it in a spray bottle...

TFred

What, exactly, does a gun smell like?

Steel? Plastic? Aluminum? Leather?

Solvents? Oils? Powder residue?

I smell like that all the time... Gun or no gun. Ever gotten any on your hands, pants, shirt? Doesn't mean you're carrying a gun. Doesn't mean you even own one... Maybe you rented a gun at the range earlier that day? Or the day before? You'll ahve all of the above to sniff.

Seems that the "dog hit" would be thrown out based on the fact that too much stuff in this world smells like what they're looking for, and does not specifically indicate the presence of a gun. Not by a long shot.

That's like training a dog to sniff chocolate, just because some people bake pot brownies... A hit proves nothing in such a wide world of chocolate things that are not pot brownies... Same goes for any and all odors a gun might have associated with it.

It is neither indicative of contraband, nor fresh.

Pickup a bunch of that blazer 9mm aluminum you see laying around. Sprinkle them everywhere you go.... Hell, James Bond it. Fill your trunk, add a trap door...

Baked on Grease said:

Exactly!

"when did you first realize the defendant might be carrying?" Woof!

"So you smelled oil and sat down?" Woof!

"Tell the court what you did next." Whimper, whine, woof!

Sent using tapatalk

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ixtow said:

Pickup a bunch of that blazer 9mm aluminum you see laying around. Sprinkle them everywhere you go.... Hell, James Bond it. Fill your trunk, add a trap door...

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:lol::lol::lol::lol:

These are indeed a dangerous LEO ideas.


1. Our dog smells a gun. Because we do not see a gun (no OC) that is probable cause to stop and search.

2. Link drug posession and firearms posession - message guns, like drugs are bad and illegal. Courts will undoubtedly allow this stupid search justification, especially if Po-Po whines that it is for officer safety.



This is a real wake up call for constitutional carry in Virginia.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

Thundar said:

These are indeed a dangerous LEO ideas.


1. Our dog smells a gun. Because we do not see a gun (no OC) that is probable cause to stop and search.

2. Link drug posession and firearms posession - message guns, like drugs are bad and illegal. Courts will undoubtedly allow this stupid search justification, especially if Po-Po whines that it is for officer safety.



This is a real wake up call for constitutional carry in Virginia.

Live Free or Die,
Thundar

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I think many are taking it as innocuous and silly; but you're right. This could be extremely dangerous.

ixtow said:

That's like training a dog to sniff chocolate, just because some people bake pot brownies... A hit proves nothing in such a wide world of chocolate things that are not pot brownies... Same goes for any and all odors a gun might have associated with it.

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Nice analogy, I like it

I'm thinking this is just spooky BS the media oh-so-willingly promulgated. I can't imagine any K9 Officer being stupid enough to think it's possible. If his dog 'hit' on all this crap, the dog would be useless. It would 'hit' on everything that exists on the planet. Hey look, dirt! A Car! My pants! That old lady's undies! OMG we have to search everything, everybody, all the time; the dog said so!

I don't know that it's still true (probably is) but just a few years ago there was a 99.9% chance that any random $20 bill in your pocket would test positive for cocaine if swabbed with a field test kit, let alone a gas chromatograph. Shooters can have gunpowder residue on their shoes weeks after shooting, and possibly on clothing laundered after shooting because of the residue that rubbed off on your car seat on the way home from the range.

While there might be RAS/PC for a search based on the presence of these residues, I think I could mount a good argument that a dog hitting on those residues on me was not specific enough to be meaningful.

stay safe.

skidmark said:

I don't know that it's still true (probably is) but just a few years ago there was a 99.9% chance that any random $20 bill in your pocket would test positive for cocaine if swabbed with a field test kit, let alone a gas chromatograph. Shooters can have gunpowder residue on their shoes weeks after shooting, and possibly on clothing laundered after shooting because of the residue that rubbed off on your car seat on the way home from the range.

While there might be RAS/PC for a search based on the presence of these residues, I think I could mount a good argument that a dog hitting on those residues on me was not specific enough to be meaningful.

stay safe.

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http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=cocaine-contaminates-majority-of-american-currency

Snopes says it is true too.
http://www.snopes.com/business/money/cocaine.asp

skidmark said:

While there might be RAS/PC for a search based on the presence of these residues, I think I could mount a good argument that a dog hitting on those residues on me was not specific enough to be meaningful.

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This.

With so many lawful reasons for it, it doesn't indicate RAS/PC of a crime.

They're so used to mere presence being a crime when a dog's nose is involved. Because they're looking for drugs. But guns aren't contraband. Possessing them, or having been around them, does not indicate a crime.

I once had a job that involved a lot of test firing of big guns. Not hours after a day of this, I had to go through an airport sniffer. Nothing happened. I could smell it, my hands were even stained from handling so much spent brass... At least at the TSA test equipment factory (goof), they understand that expended powder isn't dangerous or an indicator of anything at all. Yes, this was post 9/11, just a few years ago.

Maybe the local morons don't get it... Yet...