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Thread: WA Schools

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    WA Schools

    My daughter is in a private preschool and from what I understand on carry laws for schools is that I cannot take it inside the building but can leave it locked up in the car (Loaded), is that correct?

    We are aslo going on a school field trip Friday to the pumpkin patch my understanding is that I may not carry their even if I have provided my own transportaion since its a school sponsored event is that also correct? Just looking for some input thanks

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glock23 View Post
    My daughter is in a private preschool and from what I understand on carry laws for schools is that I cannot take it inside the building but can leave it locked up in the car (Loaded), is that correct?

    We are aslo going on a school field trip Friday to the pumpkin patch my understanding is that I may not carry their even if I have provided my own transportaion since its a school sponsored event is that also correct? Just looking for some input thanks
    1) You may not take it in the building, but may leave it in the car, that is my understanding as well... RCW 9.41.280

    2) Depends...is the pumpkin patch going to be open to the public at the same time or does the school have the 'sole' use of the patch while they are there? If it remains open to the public and not under the sole use of the school than carry would be allowed (assuming this is a private business). ATG Opinion
    Last edited by gogodawgs; 10-20-2011 at 09:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    1) You may not take it in the building, but may leave it in the car, that is my understanding as well... RCW 9.41.280

    2) Depends...is the pumpkin patch going to be open to the public at the same time or does the school have the 'sole' use of the patch while they are there? If it remains open to the public and not under the sole use of the school than carry would be allowed (assuming this is a private business). ATG Opinion
    I concur with gogo on both bullet items. However with item 1 its ASSUMED you have a WA cpl (not for state law but for the fed gun free zone act exception, I believe its 18 USC 922 (q)(2) something off the top of my head). I am on my phone so will verify later if no one else does.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 10-20-2011 at 10:09 PM.
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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    I concur with gogo on both bullet items. However with item 1 its ASSUMED you have a WA cpl (not for state law but for the fed gun free zone act exception, I believe its 18 USC 922 (q)(2) something off the top of my head). I am on my phone so will verify later if no one else does.
    Of course the CPL would also be neccesary to have the gun in a loaded condition in the vehicle according to state law.
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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Of course the CPL would also be neccesary to have the gun in a loaded condition in the vehicle according to state law.
    True, thanks . I wanted to make sure I covered all my bases.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 10-20-2011 at 10:31 PM.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glock23 View Post
    My daughter is in a private preschool and from what I understand on carry laws for schools is that I cannot take it inside the building but can leave it locked up in the car (Loaded), is that correct?

    We are aslo going on a school field trip Friday to the pumpkin patch my understanding is that I may not carry their even if I have provided my own transportaion since its a school sponsored event is that also correct? Just looking for some input thanks
    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:
    After further thought, if she is in a private preschool, .280 does not apply. Carrying in a private preschool would be up to the business itself and not subject to this RCW.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    After further thought, if she is in a private preschool, .280 does not apply. Carrying in a private preschool would be up to the business itself and not subject to this RCW.
    I still can't fathom how the state feels it can ban a legal item from a "private" anything.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glock23 View Post
    My daughter is in a private preschool and from what I understand on carry laws for schools is that I cannot take it inside the building but can leave it locked up in the car (Loaded), is that correct?

    We are aslo going on a school field trip Friday to the pumpkin patch my understanding is that I may not carry their even if I have provided my own transportaion since its a school sponsored event is that also correct? Just looking for some input thanks
    First to the "event": You are barred from CC or OC in a FACILITY. The Pumpkin patch is a farm, it is not a FACILITY that is used exclusively by the school. So, can you carry to the Pumpkin Patch? IMHO, yes.

    Item number one. You can/cannot carry on school property, that is in the building...With a CPL, during the process of dropping off/picking up a student,,,yes...no-one seems to read 3: DOES NOT APPLY TO (e)

    3: does not apply to: (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;
    Last edited by hermannr; 10-20-2011 at 11:12 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    First to the "event": You are barred from CC or OC in a FACILITY. The Pumpkin patch is a farm, it is not a FACILITY that is used exclusively by the school. So, can you carry to the Pumpkin Patch? IMHO, yes.

    Item number one. You can/cannot carry on school property, that is in the building...With a CPL, during the process of dropping off/picking up a student,,,yes...no-one seems to read 3: DOES NOT APPLY TO (e)

    3: does not apply to: (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    I don't fully understand your post (wording?). I assume you are stating its only valid to have the firearm on school property if they are picking up or dropping off a student.

    I was actually looking at exception (f), which provides additional exception to have it in your car with no cpl requirement.:
    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school
    Which does not have the picking up/dropping off language.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 10-21-2011 at 12:00 AM.
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    RCW 9.41.280 Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities

    Quote Originally Posted by glock23 View Post
    My daughter is in a private preschool and from what I understand on carry laws for schools is that I cannot take it inside the building but can leave it locked up in the car (Loaded), is that correct?

    We are aslo going on a school field trip Friday to the pumpkin patch my understanding is that I may not carry their even if I have provided my own transportaion since its a school sponsored event is that also correct? Just looking for some input thanks
    RCW 9.41.280 Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities


    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

    (a) Any firearm;

    (6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

    (b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities. However, a person who is not a commissioned law enforcement officer and who provides school security services under the direction of a school administrator may not possess a device listed in subsection (1)(f) of this section unless he or she has successfully completed training in the use of such devices that is equivalent to the training received by commissioned law enforcement officers;

    (c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;


    [I include (g) here only because it make this more ambiguous]
    (g) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age who is in lawful possession of an unloaded firearm, secured in a vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school; or

    (h) Any law enforcement officer of the federal, state, or local government agency.


    [And lastly for good measure]
    (7) "GUN-FREE ZONE" signs shall be posted around school facilities giving warning of the prohibition of the possession of firearms on school grounds.


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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I am blind. Where is a private daycare(babysitting service w/training) listed in the RCW? Secondary, primary, yes, but a daycare?

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    I never would have thought to look there. This requirement for them does not mean I have to stay a thousand meters form them when I walk by with the pooches.

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    Regular Member Mainsail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    Of course the CPL would also be neccesary to have the gun in a loaded condition in the vehicle according to state law.
    ...unless he was on his way to or from some outdoor activity like hiking, fishing, or hunting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    ...unless he was on his way to or from some outdoor activity like hiking, fishing, or hunting.
    Without a CPL that person would be breaking the law.

    For you to legally transport a firearm in a vehicle without a CCW/CPL the firearm must be fully unloaded. Also without a CPL you would be breaking the law by going within 1000ft of a school with a firearm.(regardless if it is loaded or not)

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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    Which does not have the picking up/dropping off language.
    What he's getting at is in 9.41.280. Concealed mean concealed.
    "(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:..."
    " (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;"

    This same wording is in federal law.

    So in other words, if you have a valid CPL and you are there to drop off or pick up your student, the prohibition does not apply to you. But if you're there for say a Parent/Teacher meeting, you must secure it in your vehicle.
    Last edited by sirpuma; 10-21-2011 at 05:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    This is gonna burn your butt, like it does mine. The de facto ban on firearms in daycare centers in Washington is located in the Washington Administrative Code. Since the state CANNOT legally ban firearms in daycare centers (without revising the RCW), the Department of Licensing has taken it upon themselves to make it a requirement for a daycare center to be licensed that the licensee ban firearms on the premises in order to get/keep their license.

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.a...e=170-295-5020

    WAC 170-295-5020
    How do I maintain a safe environment?

    (g) Gunshots by ensuring no firearm or another weapon is on the premises;
    Of course this doesn't prevent you from carrying you firearm. There is no law that says you can't. All you would be guilty of is breaking the rules of the daycare. Furthermore, is there any penalty for the daycare for failure to abide by their own rules?

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heresolong View Post
    Of course this doesn't prevent you from carrying you firearm. There is no law that says you can't. All you would be guilty of is breaking the rules of the daycare. Furthermore, is there any penalty for the daycare for failure to abide by their own rules?
    WACs are administrative code, and if they do not have an RCW to back them up they have no force of law. You cannot be charged with violating a WAC, only an RCW. This is why UW cannot prosecute the general public for carrying on campus. They think they can, but they do not have the RCW to back up their actions.

    you cannot read and understand .280, without reading .270 (both paragraphs compliments of our not friend Mike Lowry). Do not get stuck on one paragraph, without reading the whole of RCW 9.41.

    Also, remember "facility" is a building, not the grounds.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    <snip>

    Also, remember "facility" is a building, not the grounds.
    No, that is bad advice. Please read the AG opinion linked in post #2 and again HERE.

    Facility is not the factor in the AG opinion. A soccer field and the surrounding grounds are a 'facility' and the school can have 'sole' use of that type of facility.

    ESSB 5307 was amended in the House to incorporate the current language, and the Senate concurred in the House's amendment. The language of the House amendment was apparently intended to encompass the lease of athletic facilities included in the Senate version (which by their nature might be used only on a "sporadic" basis) and to broaden the provision to also include other facilities used exclusively by schools. The amendatory language expanded the prohibition to all facilities, and areas of facilities, regardless of the nature of the schools' use or the means by which the possession of the facilities is obtained.
    What is important is if the school has the power to exclude or is the facility, grounds, pumpkin patch open to the public and not under their sole use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlacsamana1989 View Post
    Without a CPL that person would be breaking the law.

    For you to legally transport a firearm in a vehicle without a CCW/CPL the firearm must be fully unloaded. Also without a CPL you would be breaking the law by going within 1000ft of a school with a firearm.(regardless if it is loaded or not)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainsail View Post
    ...unless he was on his way to or from some outdoor activity like hiking, fishing, or hunting.
    Wow, you state this with such authority... as though you know what you're talking about. NavyLCDR has it right (as usual) and you would do well to note that this forum isn't (or at least didn't used to be) very tolerant of people stating their opinion as fact. If you preface your statements with, "I think that...." or "I was told that..." you would be much better off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirpuma View Post
    What he's getting at is in 9.41.280. Concealed mean concealed.
    "(3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:..."
    " (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;"

    This same wording is in federal law.

    So in other words, if you have a valid CPL and you are there to drop off or pick up your student, the prohibition does not apply to you. But if you're there for say a Parent/Teacher meeting, you must secure it in your vehicle.
    This is exactly what I thought, and confirmed after reviewing the RCW with my daughter's private school. As long as I was there to pick her up or drop her off, I didn't have to disarm. (I made sure to keep it covered-up to avoid any difficulties, after all, it's my daughter that may suffer.) I have not spoken to the public school where she is now attending, but I assumed it to be the same. I will ask them and see what is said. (Of course they have a very obvious "NO FIREARMS" sign as you walk up to the front door.)

    Any other thoughts?

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    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Private or public doesnt change the law.
    You may pick up and drop off a student, But
    DO NOT go inside the building! That would be a no-no.
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    Regular Member GuidoZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Private or public doesnt change the law.
    You may pick up and drop off a student, But
    DO NOT go inside the building! That would be a no-no.
    The RCW doesn't state you can't go in a building when picking-up or dropping off. It simply says the subsection doesn't apply to a CPL holder in the act of "picking-up or dropping off a student". I walk my daughter to her classroom as part of dropping her off. She's 5. When she's 15, obviously that won't be the case, but she still likes to be with daddy and give me a hug, even in front of the whole class. If the law stated no one period (no subsection exceptions) could carry in the building, then I'd roll with it. But after discussing it positively with the private school director, who came from a public school background, I'm inclined to stick to my guns (no pun intended?)

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  23. #23
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    You are not allowed to enter a building with a firearm. The RCW's state it clear as day.

    (6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.

    (b) Any person engaged in military, law enforcement, or school district security activities. However, a person who is not a commissioned law enforcement officer and who provides school security services under the direction of a school administrator may not possess a device listed in subsection (1)(f) of this section unless he or she has successfully completed training in the use of such devices that is equivalent to the training received by commissioned law enforcement officers;

    (c) Any person who is involved in a convention, showing, demonstration, lecture, or firearms safety course authorized by school authorities in which the firearms of collectors or instructors are handled or displayed;

    (f) Any nonstudent at least eighteen years of age legally in possession of a firearm or dangerous weapon that is secured within an attended vehicle or concealed from view within a locked unattended vehicle while conducting legitimate business at the school;

    (h) Any law enforcement officer of the federal, state, or local government agency.
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    You are not allowed to enter a building with a firearm. The RCW's state it clear as day.

    (6) Except as provided in subsection (3)(b), (c), (f), and (h) of this section, firearms are not permitted in a public or private school building.
    Yes, you've got it right! It might help, in addition, to point out that section about picking up or dropping off students is (3)(e), which is specifically omitted from the list of exceptions in #6:

    "(e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;"

    In other words, you are still not allowed to carry inside the building simply by virtue of having your CPL and being in the process of picking up or dropping off a student.
    Last edited by kparker; 10-26-2011 at 03:20 AM.

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    Regular Member GuidoZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kparker View Post
    Yes, you've got it right! It might help, in addition, to point out that section about picking up or dropping off students is (3)(e), which is specifically omitted from the list of exceptions in #6:

    "(e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;"

    In other words, you are still not allowed to carry inside the building simply by virtue of having your CPL and being in the process of picking up or dropping off a student.
    Interesting thoughts here. I certainly may have misread the RCW regarding the exception, and was again misinformed by the director at my daughter's preschool. That said, here's my biggest dilemma...

    We walk to school. It's about a 15min walk, and I'm usually accompanied by my wife and infant son. We'll frequently take a nifty double-stroller, which my daughter can stand up in and my son sits in. Either way, once we arrive at school, there is nowhere to secure the firearm. No car, no lock-box, etc. My only option then would be to walk without it, which I'd prefer not to do for a multitude of reasons. There's no use going into the whole "only those intending to use a firearm improperly would be a concern anyway, and it be better if someone who intended to prevent such a thing was present with equal defenses", as the law is the law. Yet again, law-abiding citizens are going to be the ones in trouble when the criminals do things their own way. If someone has a valid CPL, you would think they would be trusted enough to own and care for a firearm.

    Thanks for the additional info. I'll disarm for now when walking and leave it in the car when driving. Shame either way.

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