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Thread: ccwing in a Bar, Question?

  1. #1
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    ccwing in a Bar, Question?

    Ok, I just Finish reading the the Madison Legal update, an I've been kicking around this Question in reguards too ccw in a Bar.

    So here goes, If stoped comeing out of a bar while ccwing,do we have to submit to a Breather test if asked, an or told we have too???

    I,ve got this gut feeiing their going to try an pull this one on people.

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    How would anyone know you are CCing?

    I mean if they know, you are doing it wrong.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
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    Water, soda, etc. If I'm carrying I want all my faculties about me. Zero means zero. I for one don't have an issue with not drinking while carrying.

    JJC

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJC View Post
    Water, soda, etc. If I'm carrying I want all my faculties about me. Zero means zero. I for one don't have an issue with not drinking while carrying.

    JJC

    Heck, I haven't had a drink in almost a year but that's not relevant to the question. You don't need to have had any alcohol to exercise your rights.

    I think the answer is that if they are truly unaware you are CCW, they lack the legal authority to demand the test.

    If they know you are CCW, that may give them RAS to at least question you further and try to get PC.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    range rat, you don't have to do a breathelizer. The law states you cannot drink while carrying concealed (not sure about open though).
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by range rat View Post
    Ok, I just Finish reading the the Madison Legal update, an I've been kicking around this Question in reguards too ccw in a Bar.

    So here goes, If stoped comeing out of a bar while ccwing,do we have to submit to a Breather test if asked, an or told we have too???

    I,ve got this gut feeiing their going to try an pull this one on people.
    The law says that one may not consume alcahol while CC'ng in a Class B. However, it does not say that absolute sobriety is required to CCW in a Class B. Hypothetically, one could drink at home or at a park, then go to a Class-B and not drink while there.

    I think if there is adequate RAS in the totality of cricurmstances, they could just arrest the person. For a sobriety test, there is no penalty for refusal, unless one is operating a motor vehicle. So just do not give consent or comply with a sobriety test.

    What LEO's need then is video survielance or eye witness testimony that someone was consuming in a Class-B and evidence that the person was CCing aswell.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 10-22-2011 at 03:30 PM.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    I believe the only time you are required to submit to a test is if your driving. Even that is a Constitutional issue. But statutorily speaking it's the only situation. But at a minimum, you don't have to provide any evidence to incriminate yourself. You know that pesky annoying 5th amendment thing. Could those test results be used to convict you...of course. Nope sorry I don't consent to any tests to be used against me.

    Why couldn't you enter a bar concealing, if you want an alcoholic drink, unconceal...depending on your carry location, drink your beverage then conceal again when your finished. There now your a nice law abiding citizen. "Drinking" while carrying isn't the problem, excessive consumption is.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    ...Why couldn't you enter a bar concealing, if you want an alcoholic drink, unconceal...depending on your carry location, drink your beverage then conceal again when your finished. There now your a nice law abiding citizen. "Drinking" while carrying isn't the problem, excessive consumption is.
    You may not consume alcohol in a bar while carrying regardless if it is concealed or openly. There are 2 separate State Statutes. One prohibits you from being materially impaired while carrying and the other prohibits you from consuming in a "bar".

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    Which specific statutes are you referring to for everyone's reference? Having a drink does not make you "materially impaired". I believe most are aware that being "impaired" and armed is both dangerous and illegal. But simply having a "drink" I don't believe is. I believe the general opine of courts is that you would have to be over the .08 limit. But it's an opinion of the courts not a statutory limit.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    .... I believe the general opine of courts is that you would have to be over the .08 limit. But it's an opinion of the courts not a statutory limit.
    You are "under the influence" regardless of .08 if you are less able to do something than if you were sober. That is all the courts have to prove is that you are "materially impaired".
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 10-22-2011 at 07:10 PM.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    Which specific statutes are you referring to for everyone's reference? .
    Are you from Wisconsin and have you been following ACT 35?
    941.237 Carrying handgun where alcohol beverages
    may be sold and consumed.
    (2) Whoever intentionally goes armed with a handgun on any
    premises for which a Class “B” or “Class B” license or permit has
    been issued under ch. 125 is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

    (3) Subsection (2) does not apply to any of the following

    (cx) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out−
    of−state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the licensee or
    out−of−state licensee is not consuming alcohol on the premises
    941.20 Endangering safety by use of dangerous
    weapon. (1) Whoever does any of the following is guilty of a
    Class A misdemeanor:
    (a) Endangers another’s safety by the negligent operation or
    handling of a dangerous weapon; or
    (b) Operates or goes armed with a firearm while he or she is
    under the influence of an intoxicant; or
    (bm) Operates or goes armed with a firearm while he or she has
    a detectable amount of a restricted controlled substance in his or
    her blood.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Everyone calm down:

    You are both right.

    The rule before where 'we' can oc with permission didn't change.

    941.237 (3)(g) The possession or use of a handgun on the premises ifauthorized for a specific event of limited duration by the owner or
    manager of the premises who is issued the Class “B” or “Class B”
    license or permit under ch. 125 for the premises.
    What is new with Act 35 is carrying open or concealed without explicit permission. For this, we need a permit:

    941.237 (3)(cx) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out−
    of−state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the licensee or
    out−of−state licensee is not consuming alcohol on the premises.
    So... if you plan on drinking, leave your permit in the car, ask permission, open carry and have a drink or two.

    There is a 'materially impaired' law that was NOT changed with Act 35 so be careful if you drink and carry.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    You are "under the influence" regardless of .08 if you are less able to do something than if you were sober. That is all the courts have to prove is that you are "materially impaired".
    I was told by a firearms instructor that is in the medical field that one does not begin to become 'under the infuence' until a BAC of .04 is reached.

    Materially Impaired is not the same as Under the Influence. The burden of proof in much higher. One can carry a firearm while Under the Influence, as long as they are not Materiall Impaired.

    I personally recommend Absolute Sobriety while carrrying a firearm, but that is not what they law requires.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I was told by a firearms instructor that is in the medical field that one does not begin to become 'under the infuence' until a BAC of .04 is reached.

    Materially Impaired is not the same as Under the Influence. The burden of proof in much higher. One can carry a firearm while Under the Influence, as long as they are not Materiall Impaired.

    I personally recommend Absolute Sobriety while carrrying a firearm, but that is not what they law requires.
    The Statutory definition of "under the influence" IS "materially impaired" and has zero relevance to BAC. When you get pulled over and are suspected of having been drinking you will get 2 separate citations. One for prohibited BAC and the other for Operating under the Influence. Only 1 needs to be proven for a conviction.

    (42) "Under the influence of an intoxicant" means that the actor's ability to operate a vehicle or handle a firearm or airgun is materially impaired because of his or her consumption of an alcohol beverage, of a controlled substance or controlled substance analog under ch. 961, of any combination of an alcohol beverage, controlled substance and controlled substance analog, or of any other drug or of an alcohol beverage and any other drug.

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    Regular Member BrewTownBagger's Avatar
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    I don't know about everyone else on the forum, but don't ever want my mental competence called into question on the stand. If you're carrying drink soda. If you want to have drinks, then leave you're firearm at home.

    My 2 cents

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrewTownBagger View Post
    I don't know about everyone else on the forum, but don't ever want my mental competence called into question on the stand. If you're carrying drink soda. If you want to have drinks, then leave you're firearm at home.

    My 2 cents
    I agree.

    But having said that, and before Paul gets here, let me say that have a drink or two with a meal at a restaraunt is particularly safer than going out to watch a football game or shoot some pool.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    The Statutory definition of "under the influence" IS "materially impaired" and has zero relevance to BAC. When you get pulled over and are suspected of having been drinking you will get 2 separate citations. One for prohibited BAC and the other for Operating under the Influence. Only 1 needs to be proven for a conviction.
    Operating under the Influence is the charge that gets dropped more than 99% of the time.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Operating under the Influence is the charge that gets dropped more than 99% of the time.
    That doesn't appear to be a realistic statistic. Care to cite?
    It is factual that they only convict on 1 of the 2 even if you are found guilty of both. They cite for both knowing that one will likely stick. It is pretty hard to beat a blood test or even the breathalyzer. Operating under the influence is also there in the case that you test positive for a controlled substance. In regards to firearms and drugs other than alcohol, you may not possess a firearm with a detectable amount of a controlled substance in your system. You do not have to be proven under the influence.

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    It may not be the best idea to imbibe when going heeled, but I will leave that to the discretion of the individual. Just be aware of the possibilities of negative outcomes and consequences thereof.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

  20. #20
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Yes,.

    Eventually you will have to buy a round. It is inevitable.
    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member oak1971's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandyHamlet View Post
    Yes,.

    Eventually you will have to buy a round. It is inevitable.
    Its fine if they drink the cheap stuff, but you and I have a taste for the extravagant.
    In God I trust. Everyone else needs to keep your hands where I can see them.

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    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    I agree.

    But having said that, and before Paul gets here, let me say that have a drink or two with a meal at a restaraunt is particularly safer than going out to watch a football game or shoot some pool.
    Lol!
    My main point is that I don't give up my right to self defense if I have a glass of wine with dinner.

    Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by paul@paul-fisher.com; 10-23-2011 at 09:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    You may not consume alcohol in a bar while carrying regardless if it is concealed or openly. There are 2 separate State Statutes. One prohibits you from being materially impaired while carrying and the other prohibits you from consuming in a "bar".
    Yes, this is correct.

    The difficult part is defining impairment. Even with the laws pertaining to driving while impaired that definition sometimes is hard to nail down.

    I like how MN has handled this, simply making it against the law to carry if you are above a 0.04 blood alcohol concentration. Per research data, you will not be impaired at .04 or lower.

    On the other hand, I would recommend no alcohol onboard if one is carrying just because if you have any alcohol in your system and something bad happens where you must use your firearm, you will be a target (particularly in civil court) just because you have alcohol in your system and you have a gun. I have seen this happen in cases involving driving a vehicle. It isn't fair, but that is just how it is.

    If you choose to drink while carrying, be aware of what you may be facing.

  24. #24
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    So here we have the [scare quotes] best and brightest [/scare quotes] telling us that it is better to drink and die than to drink and exercise your inalienable rights to happiness, life and self-defense. LOL

  25. #25
    McX
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    the solution is easy, just as there are designated drivers, employ designated carrier(s). ofcourse they may struggle under the weight of everyone in attendances guns, but if they get too loaded and forget to ask for them back.............free guns!

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