View Poll Results: Was this a good shoot?

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Thread: [News story] This Good Samaritan shot to kill

  1. #1
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    [News story] This Good Samaritan shot to kill

    http://www.twincities.com/ci_1916859...ce=most_viewed Posted: October 21, 2011 - 8:48pm By Steve Fry THE CAPITAL-JOURNAL

    Police called him a "Good Samaritan," but Minneapolis detectives were still investigating Friday the case of a man who shot and killed an armed robber he chased down the night before.

    The man who fired the fatal shot had a permit for his handgun and told police he used the weapon after the fleeing robber turned and confronted him behind a restaurant.

    Police spokesman Sgt. William Palmer said the department was leaning toward classifying the shooting as self-defense.

    "However, decisions on charging are left up to the county attorney's office. And since there's a death, it might even be taken to a grand jury," he said.
    EDIT:

    No charges against man who confronted, shot robbery suspect in Minneapolis

    MINNEAPOLIS A man who confronted and fatally shot a suspected robber won't be charged in the killing because he acted in self-defense after a gun was pointed at him, prosecutors said Friday.

    Instead, prosecutors filed felony charges against the dead man's sister, alleging she participated in two earlier robberies in the same neighborhood and was with her brother the night he was shot.

    Octavia Shonte Marberry, 20, of Minneapolis, was charged with two counts of aggravated first-degree robbery. Her brother, Darren Evanovich, was shot and killed Oct. 20 after police said he fled the scene of a robbery in a Cub Foods parking lot.

    The man who shot Evanovich wasn't identified.
    ...
    ...
    The complaint said the unidentified man followed them in his car and asked for the robbery victim's purse back. Evanovich pointed a gun at the man, who pulled out his own handgun and fired.
    ...
    ...
    ...
    More@ http://www.therepublic.com/view/stor...ante-Shooting/

    also:
    'Good Samaritan' Who Shot Mpls Robber Won't Be Charged
    http://kstp.com/news/stories/s2349047.shtml

    Shooting victim's sister charged with robbery
    http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_19216606
    Last edited by hazek; 11-01-2011 at 05:24 AM.

  2. #2
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    Hmmm although I have been lurking around I just registered to post this news article but now that I think about it I think I might have chosen the wrong section of the forum. If so, could a mod move this thread to where it's appropriate? Thanks! And sorry
    Last edited by hazek; 10-22-2011 at 12:10 PM.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Instead of worrying about if your post is in the "right" section, how anout worrying if there is enough information to even begin to decide if there was a "good" shoot or not?

    Nit trying to bust your chops. My gripe is more with the news system that feeds just enough to sensationalize an event than with asking folks to try to decide based on almost no real information. It's almost as bad as being asked to sit on a jury and reach a decision.

    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    I intentionally left out the rest of the article because I usually like to respect the original author's work by forcing you to click their link to get the whole story.. I hope that's not too unreasonable.

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran ComradeV's Avatar
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    Does the State's laws require one to retreat if possible? Otherwise wouldn't deadly force be considered permissible in the apprehension of a suspected armed felon?

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    I intentionally left out the rest of the article because I usually like to respect the original author's work by forcing you to click their link to get the whole story.. I hope that's not too unreasonable.
    Not is unreasonable at all. In fact Fair Use excerpts and links are required to conform with OCDO rules.

    (11) RESPECT COPYRIGHT HOLDERS: We often share news stories with one another. Please remember that these stories are copyrighted material and only post a fair-use excerpt along with a link where the rest of the story may be read.
    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
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  7. #7
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    I put unsure because I do not trust news reports to tell the whole story, not because of what the GS did.

    My understanding of OUR (WA) law is, if the BG continues to be a deadly threat to society in general, (this is the unsure part), then yes, you can chase the BG down, apprehend, and if necessary, shoot him.

    The threat to your person has stopped, but is this BG still a felony or deadly threat to society in general??? that is the question they need to answer. There was not enough information provided to make that call.

    Edited to add: example of what I am taking about:

    A while back in Seattle there was a headline: "Burgler shot while running away".

    Well, in WA it is justifiable to shoot a burgler in your house, but generally not so when the threat has left your house and is running away.

    So what was the real story? The burgler was confronted by an armed homeowner and ran. Just outside this house there was a man in a car that had parked so he could talk on his cell phone. This burgler trys to carjack this guy at knife point. The man in the car shot the burgler, come carjacker, and held him for police, the homeowner did not. Lots of difference. Absolutely a good shot by the car owner.

    Would it have been OK for the homeowner also? Probably, the burgler showed he was still a threat to society at large, but it would have been questioned, whereas the car owner was never in any danger of being charged. Even the newspaper thought it was a "good shot".
    Last edited by hermannr; 10-23-2011 at 01:11 PM.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    I intentionally left out the rest of the article because I usually like to respect the original author's work by forcing you to click their link to get the whole story.. I hope that's not too unreasonable.
    Not unreasonable at all. That's the way it's supposed to be done. Reprinting the entire article is a violation of copyright law and is prohibited on this and most forums. If people don't want to follow a link for some reason, oh well. That's their problem.

    As for the article, I'd want to know precisely why he felt it was necessary to chase him down. On the face of it, it doesn't seem reasonable, but as others have pointed out, the article provides insufficient information.
    Last edited by since9; 10-24-2011 at 12:08 AM.
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  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Clarifying, if such be needed - my comment on the lack of information was not directed at the OP, as they appropriately provided a link for me to follow to get the complete article, which I did. There just was not enough information to decide if there was justification for taking the shot.

    As has been pointed out, by giving chase the "Good Samaritan" may have actually become the aggressor in the eyes of the law. The newspapers are never going to provide enough information to determine if that was or was not the case. There are many other questions about how the shooter handled the incident that get raised if one goes looking for additional reports of the incident. I mention this just to reinforce that we almost never get enough information to make an informed decision - at best we can say "It sounds like a BG got what I think they deserve via street justice as opposed to courtroom justice." I do not believe that is necessarily a bad thing. Some folks behave in a way that requires they suffer the consequences of their choice of behavior immediately. I also believe that many times that outcome is fairer to both the BG and to society.

    But I'm going to stop worrying about the newspaper's reporting and the question of was this a "good shoot" or not. I'm going to ask the OP to explain why he supports shooting to kill, as opposed to shooting to stop the threat? Based on the headline he chose for his post it seems that is in fact the case.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  10. #10
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    Not at all. If you clicked the article, you'd see, it has the same title as my thread. But I do regret not being more sensible in wording the poll question and choices and would change them if I could.
    Last edited by hazek; 10-24-2011 at 11:54 AM.

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    Personally I would shoot to stop but hope it kills. Naturally I'm assuming that it was a "good" shot. If the person dies then there is one less criminal on the street or leeching off the system in prison.

  12. #12
    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    I intentionally left out the rest of the article because I usually like to respect the original author's work by forcing you to click their link to get the whole story.. I hope that's not too unreasonable.
    Nope, seems reasonable enough to me.

    My opinion is that the actions of the shooter smacks of vigilantism.
    Last edited by MilProGuy; 11-07-2011 at 11:07 PM. Reason: edited to change font color
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  13. #13
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    I think there is more to the story, unfortunately, the media won't provide the details. I reserve judgement.

    Also, I'm curious about this instructor; he has a tone of the Brady bunch; meaning, because he is an isntructor, his expertise is unquestionable; therefore, making his statements of concern leaves the impression the shooting was unjust or at least thats what I think the writer wants us to believe. He is being quoted as to have complete knowledge of the courts and the levels to which they make decisions. Looks like a hit job on carrying. JMHO.

  14. #14
    Regular Member gunns's Avatar
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    Clearly not and I will tell you why

    Mn law requires you to retreat and only fire if you or someone near you is under threat. The bad guy ran around a corner before the other pursued him, so clearly the threat was over but the guy chased him. This gives us all a bad image, like we want to chase down bad guys and get a kill. That is not why I carry.

  15. #15
    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunns View Post
    Mn law requires you to retreat and only fire if you or someone near you is under threat. The bad guy ran around a corner before the other pursued him, so clearly the threat was over but the guy chased him. This gives us all a bad image, like we want to chase down bad guys and get a kill. That is not why I carry.
    Welcome to the forum, gunns!

    I agree, this incident gives us all a bad image.
    Last edited by MilProGuy; 11-07-2011 at 11:08 PM.
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    Sister of Man Shot Outside Minneapolis Cub Foods Arrested

    Read more: Sister of Man Shot Outside Minneapolis Cub Foods Arrested http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/n...#ixzz1bzspT5ZB

    Sister of slain man arrested by Minneapolis police

    http://www.startribune.com/local/min...132664278.html

    Case of slain robber soon with Hennepin County Attorney

    We could learn in days if a man who shot a robber will face criminal charges.
    Minneapolis police investigators are close to finishing their investigation of Thursday's shooting death of Darren Evanovich, 23, of Minneapolis,
    http://www.startribune.com/local/blogs/132487488.html

    Sisters Say Man Who Shot Their Brother Should Have Called Police Instead [with video of the sister]

    http://kstp.com/news/stories/S2342768.shtml?cat=1

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunns View Post
    Mn law requires you to retreat and only fire if you or someone near you is under threat. The bad guy ran around a corner before the other pursued him, so clearly the threat was over but the guy chased him. This gives us all a bad image, like we want to chase down bad guys and get a kill. That is not why I carry.
    What is the law on citizens arrest in the state. Attempting to subdue a criminal might not be illegal and that could justify him chasing after someone (especially if the criminal was committing a felony). Once the person turned hostile to being apprehended (as opposed to simply fleeing) you have a different situation.

    Personally I'm torn on the subject of citizens trying to apprehend criminals. On one side I disagree with it because of the danger involved and what not. On the other we carry for self defense so why should we have to rely on cops for apprehending criminals if one witnesses a crime and feels that they are capable of doing so?

  18. #18
    Regular Member gunns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    What is the law on citizens arrest in the state. Attempting to subdue a criminal might not be illegal and that could justify him chasing after someone (especially if the criminal was committing a felony). Once the person turned hostile to being apprehended (as opposed to simply fleeing) you have a different situation.

    Personally I'm torn on the subject of citizens trying to apprehend criminals. On one side I disagree with it because of the danger involved and what not. On the other we carry for self defense so why should we have to rely on cops for apprehending criminals if one witnesses a crime and feels that they are capable of doing so?

    We, as gun carrying, permit holders are not suppose to apprehend criminals. We are to defend ourselves and ours against bodily harmed under only the most strict guidelines. To do anything else will make the Anti's notice and give them more ammo (pun intended) to use against our Constitutional right to bear arms.
    Last edited by gunns; 10-27-2011 at 11:55 AM.

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    This is an interesting case indeed. Lots to learn from.

    IMO on one hand you have a thug with a gun, who points a gun at and pistol whips his victim and shows high disregard for the well-being of others and on the other hand his decision to chase him down ended in a gunfight that could have gotten him killed or killed others. But what if he had a knife instead, and instead of pistol whipping her, he had stabbed her and no one gave chase and he went on a spree stabbing a few more people before he is finally stopped by LEOs?

    I mean if he only robbed the lady without hurting her maybe that shouldn't have been enough of a reason to try and stop him but when he shows he is capable of far more damage than just a robbery giving chase might just be the best thing to do and if he resists using deadly force.

    I don't know, I'm still unsure what the right thing to do is but I'm leaning a lot closer to justified than not.
    Last edited by hazek; 10-27-2011 at 12:07 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunns View Post
    We, as gun carrying, permit holders are not suppose to apprehend criminals. We are to defend ourselves and ours against bodily harmed under only the most strict guidelines. To do anything else will make the Anti's notice and give them more ammo (pun intended) to use against our Constitutional right to bear arms.
    IMO this isn't as black and white as you are trying to paint.. What about Joe Zamudio, who was armed inside a store when he heard shots fired outside when Jared Lee Loughner killed all those people while trying to kill Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in AZ? Was he suppose to do nothing?
    Last edited by hazek; 10-27-2011 at 12:01 PM.

  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunns View Post
    We, as gun carrying, permit holders are not suppose to apprehend criminals. We are to defend ourselves and ours against bodily harmed under only the most strict guidelines. To do anything else will make the Anti's notice and give them more ammo (pun intended) to use against our Constitutional right to bear arms.
    Welcome Gunns.

    I don't know about that "we are not supposed to" thing. Agree that we aren't policeman and we have oft heard that we need to be good witnesses. Others have said that they would not intervene - not sure if I could live comfortably with myself if I did not do something under the right circumstances and yes I am aware of the pitfalls.

    I am unaware of any state statute that limits use of such force to self and loved ones.

    I believe that I would rather tick of an anti or entire busloads of them than watch an innocent die. Imagine the headline: "Armed man watches murder of woman 8 months pregnant"
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    And yet there is still not enough information to know beyond a reasonable doubt that the attack had not ended when the chase began.

    What we are engaged upon here is an endless series of "what-ifs" and "I thinks" along with a whole lot of "I hope I woulds" that do not amount to anything more than a hill of used electrons unless we figure out how to learn something useful out of all this. For me that generally turns out to be a better understanding of the relevant laws on defense of innocent third parties and the use of lethal/deadly force, with perhaps a big helping of citizen's arrest thrown in.

    I'd like to invite folks to stop thinking about themselves and what they might have done if only they had been there and consider just how much help I need in understanding those things.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunns View Post
    We, as gun carrying, permit holders are not suppose to apprehend criminals. We are to defend ourselves and ours against bodily harmed under only the most strict guidelines. To do anything else will make the Anti's notice and give them more ammo (pun intended) to use against our Constitutional right to bear arms.
    You mention our constitutional right to bear arms? In the secod amendment it mentions " A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state..." wouldn't chasing down a felon be considered protection of your state? When this most wonderful document was written, we as a society normally apprehended evil doers ourselves, so we could say he was doing exactly what the second amendment stands for. However in today's society this isn't the case, so even though he was within his constitutional rights, he should not have gave chase, unless of course their was exigent circumstances that would entitle him to give chase. However none of us know how we would feel in this situation?.?. When your assaulted, or threatened, etc. you feel very violated, and would certainly like to see justice brought to who done so, not saying shooting the man is the proper justice, buy atleast attempting to subdue him for police. When your in this situation your body is dumping adrenaline, and you become a very different person when B.A.R kicks in, its nearly impossible to think how you would under normal circumstances.

  24. #24
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    I see three separate things here:

    1) Armed robber caught in the act
    2) Citizens arrest powers against one caught in the act of a felony and armed
    3) Armed criminal turning to confront pursuer

    We don't have all the info to say if he broke a law or not, but we can still look at what has been released and at the laws to learn from the situation both in regards to the legality of the actions and if we agree with the actions and why. Someone can legally be in the right but morally wrong/irresponsible; or legally wrong but morally right and there's much that can be learned from either situation.

  25. #25
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    How ironic:

    Armed robber knew the right path, but was unable to follow it

    Darren Evanovich gave a video testimonial intended to deter others from a life of crime. Nine days later he was shot to death after committing a robbery.
    ...
    ...
    ...
    Video[10min] and more@ http://www.startribune.com/local/min...132754113.html

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