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Thread: Photography Merits Pat-Down Search

  1. #1
    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Photography Merits Pat-Down Search

    Los Angeles County Sheriff's Commander: Officers Trained That "Potential Terrorist" Activity Such as Photography Merits Pat-Down Search

    Sunday, October 23, 2011
    by Greggory Moore

    1:50pm | Captain Steven M. Roller of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department has told Long Beach Post that it is standard practice to detain and pat down photographers for "potential terrorist" activity such as photographing a courthouse.

    His latest installment reveals that Los Angeles County Sheriff's deputies are trained to search photographers who are taking pictures in public, which is illegal (the patdown, not the photography).

    Here is what Captain Steven Roller told Moore:

    I'm going to make sure, just real quick, I'm going to do a non-invasive pat-down, okay? And now I'm sure this guy doesn't have a weapon. Now I can kind of relax a bit and do the second part of this thing and find out why he's taking pictures of the courthouse, okay? … If you ever read anything about training material, they always tell you after you make sure there's no secreted weapons, then you always want to keep an eye on the hands. … But I know certainly that if I would have said, 'Can I see some identification?' that would have been too late. Because if I had said, 'Can I see some identification?' and you're going to reach back and get your wallet out of your back pocket, that's too late to suddenly say, 'Oh, maybe I need to pat you down to make sure you don't have a weapon,' because you're already going for the back pocket. That would have been too late.

    {snip}

    Roller also confirmed that the aesthetics of the photographic subject is a criterion in determining whether a photographer's activity is suspicious.


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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    As a photographer, who occasionally enjoys architectural photography, this is very disturbing to me.

    And you can bet that if this were going on in my area that I'd be getting every photography buddy I had-including every photography student I studied with, to go downtown with our cameras and take pictures of government buildings and see how many cops they'd waste to come pat us all down.
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    Regular Member Saber379's Avatar
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    I wonder if they will be watching every car that drives by to see if they have a camera and pull them over. They never think about these things. Its just like Open Carry, Do you think the criminal is going to OC in a holster. Do you think a Terrorist is going to stand out in the open and snap a bunch of pics. They are more likely to sit in a car with a telephoto lens and take pics . So again law abiding citizens are harassed taking up resources from the true problem.

  4. #4
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Good catch, Useful Piglet, but without a citation you will be accused of blowing his hat off with CO2 and fauxtoshopping. Here...

    http://www.lbpost.com/news/greggory/12605

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    When a society decides to allow police to determine what does and does not have "artistic merit", the true end of freedom has arrived...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    I wonder what they would do if I covered up my Nikon logo with a Glock logo? If I use my telephoto lens, would that be considered a "scope"?

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    Regular Member HandyHamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    Good catch, Useful Piglet, but without a citation you will be accused of blowing his hat off with CO2 and fauxtoshopping. Here...

    http://www.lbpost.com/news/greggory/12605
    Thanks, could have sworn I included the link.

    "Don't interfere with anything in the Constitution. That must be maintained, for it is the only safeguard of our liberties."
    Abraham Lincoln

    "Some time ago, a bunch of lefties defied the law by dancing at the Jefferson Memorial, resulting in their arrests. Last week, a bunch of them pulled the same stunt and - using patented Lefist techniques - provoked the Park Police into having to use force to arrest them."
    Alexcabbie

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Interestingly enough, it is the parts that are highlighted that I find the most concerning.

    I'm going to make sure, just real quick, I'm going to do a non-invasive pat-down, okay? And now I'm sure this guy doesn't have a weapon. Now I can kind of relax a bit and do the second part of this thing and find out why he's taking pictures of the courthouse, okay? … If you ever read anything about training material, they always tell you after you make sure there's no secreted weapons, then you always want to keep an eye on the hands. … But I know certainly that if I would have said, 'Can I see some identification?' that would have been too late. Because if I had said, 'Can I see some identification?' and you're going to reach back and get your wallet out of your back pocket, that's too late to suddenly say, 'Oh, maybe I need to pat you down to make sure you don't have a weapon,' because you're already going for the back pocket. That would have been too late.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    "1:50pm | Captain Steven M. Roller of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department has told Long Beach Post that it is standard practice to detain and pat down photographers for "potential terrorist" activity such as photographing a courthouse."

    I suggest Capt ROTFL target the Google Map/Earth vehicles running all over the place. They've probably photographed 90% of all the courthouses here in America, and those pics are now available worldwide, so by his definition... Go get 'em! And watch Google counter with a very well-funded Billion Dollar Lawsuit.

    Many courthouses are historical landmarks. At the very least, their architecture is noteworthy and worthy of being photographed.

    Since Capt Roller seems incapable of understanding this, I question him being worthy of his rank.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Certainly SEEMS to exceed what is allowed under TERRY!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Semi-non-rhetorical question:

    Don't these cops/deputies get in-service training? This issue has been througfh the courts in just about every state, territory, commonwealth, and Protectorate in the US of A, and none of them have upheld the cops stopping, taking film/sd-cards, or forcing images to be deleted. And this was not all just in the last few days!

    One would think that with all the civil rights cases that LEO/LEA follow they would by now understand that once a ruling comes down it pretty well puts them on notice that doing the same thing themselves voids their soverign immunity defense and opens them up to paying out money both personally and from the department budget. Or (asking seriously) are they going for a judicial determination that they are not a reasonable officer who should have known the behavior was not permitted? See http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-4th-circuit/1075088.html for the only case I know of where the LEO (OK, a prison guard) hoped to be found by the courts to be stupid.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member McNutty's Avatar
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    I’ve always thought my interest in photography was kind of a “nerdy” hobby. I’m even taking a class next month…. I didn’t realize that taking photos of architecture around government buildings, maybe (God forbid) an interesting bridge, may make me a potential terrorist suspect.

    I'm going to make sure, just real quick, I'm going to do a non-invasive pat-down, okay? And now I'm sure this guy doesn't have a weapon. Now I can kind of relax a bit and do the second part of this thing and find out why he's taking pictures of the courthouse, okay?
    Unfortunately, I think this mentality of far too many LEOs and, regardless of the legal requirements, is probably reflective of the real world practice of LEOs. I once worked on a legal matter where the LEO readily admitted in court that it was his practice to perform a pat down on everyone that he encountered – it’s just a quick non-invasive pat down so I’ll feel better…. It’s just another example of the expanding exercise of police powers at the expense of personal liberty for the sake of keeping us safe in the name of a war on terror.

    I realize that my crappy photos are probably criminal in some people’s opinions but I didn’t think that I’d need to worry about being subject to a pat down for trying.

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    Regular Member Phoenix David's Avatar
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    Have recorder turned on, Get cards from the officers, answer no questions, call ACLU, they will love you for it
    Freedom is a bit like sex, when your getting it you take it for granted, when you're not you want it bad, other people get mad at you for having it and others want to take it away from you so only they have it.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    One of my favorite things to do when approached by a LEO who starts giving me orders without cause, is to put my hands in my pockets...
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
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    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    One of my favorite things to do when approached by a LEO who starts giving me orders without cause...
    That happen often?

    ...is to put my hands in my pockets...
    Why?
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    That happen often?

    Once would be two times too many.

    Why?
    "Let me see your hands!"

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    "Let me see your hands!"

    stay safe.
    'am i being detained'?

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKSuddeth View Post
    'am i being detained'?
    If you can still speak after getting shot.

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    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    "Let me see your hands!"

    stay safe.
    If he's issuing orders like that, I'm definitely being detained...
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  21. #21
    Founder's Club Member ixtow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    If you can still speak after getting shot.
    I have the most calm demeanor when a cop is flipping out. I've gotten used to it. The contrast they see in themselves is embarrassing to them at this point. About a year ago I got the "Hands where I can see 'em!" I laughed the word "Why?" without even thinking about it.... In the next few seconds that followed, I realized "Holy crap, I just said that!" I didn't even hear what else he yelled at me, I was too surprised that just came out of my mouth... I was belly-laughing out loud at that point, like he wasn't even there. Apparently I did take my hands out of my pockets, but I didn't do it consciously.

    It could be dangerous to have so much LEO abuse that you don't take it seriously anymore... See above paragraph...

    No need to ask if you're being detained with that one... If there's a gun pointed at you and he's barking orders, duh... I'm used to it. Having a gun pointed at me is no big deal compared to other things LEOs have done to me.

    Really? This same old crap again? Will they never learn?

    Once I crossed my arms and asked "What is wrong with you?"

    I'm not a badass or trying to portray that kind of idea... The point is that LEOs have a very narrow, predictable, and limited pattern of behavior and thinking. You get conditioned to it easily, and that is probably not a good thing... Having experienced a lot worse than having a G22 pointed at me, it isn't the maximum spectrum for me. I've become accustomed to it, and much prefer it over being shot at, or worse...

    And gosh, how many times have I been arrested? Oh yeah zero. mach1chris has been tossed the bones necessary to figure out my name and look up my record, he can back that up. ;-)
    "The fourth man's dark, accusing song had scratched our comfort hard and long..."
    http://edhelper.com/poetry/The_Hangm...rice_Ogden.htm

    https://gunthreadadapters.com

    "Be not intimidated ... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your Liberties by any pretense of Politeness, Delicacy, or Decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for Hypocrisy, Chicanery, and Cowardice." - John Adams

    Tyranny with Manners is still Tyranny.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    "Pardon me, citizen, but it appears you are taking a picture of dog poop, which has no aesthetic value."
    "Is that your opinion as a trained professional photographer?"
    "Don't give me any of that crap. I need to know if you're a terrorist or not, why are you taking that photograph?"
    "It's not crap, it's poop."

    "Are you Gonna Tell ME, or are we gonna go downtown, bub?"

    "Okay, Officer Friendly, I'm mostly taking pictures of nothing, just to annoy you. With any luck you'll commit a crime, or violate my rights, or perform some other action for which I can take you, the department, and the government to court. I need the money, and I'm only taking photographs with the intent of instigating a court case. Would you care to help me get some?"
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-31-2011 at 05:57 PM.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ixtow View Post
    Once I crossed my arms and asked "What is wrong with you?"
    Lol! Sometimes, one can maintain the upper hand and control of the situation with non-verbals and tone of voice.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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