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Thread: Burger King Question.......

  1. #1
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    Burger King Question.......

    Curious what YOU would do..... So it's late evening and I stopped at a Burger King. I've got my Glock with me and it's covered on my hip just because I'm wearing a large sweatshirt. There is a guy in front of me in line and he looks like trouble could happen any second.

    So my mind starts to wander and I think to myself, what would I do (or should I do) if he walks up to the counter, pulls out a gun and points it at the girl taking orders and asks for the money in the register?

    - Do I quietly step back and hide, hoping he just gets the money and leaves?
    - Do I draw my gun and try to stop the robbery?
    - Do I just shoot the guy with the defense who knows what he was going to do next with a gun?

    Curious what you guys would suggest. What would the police think. This is one of these situations where I fear if I do something wrong I'll wind up in jail. But then again, if I do something wrong someone may wind up dead, or I may wind up DEAD!

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    Regular Member brk913's Avatar
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    An internet forum is probably not the place to get this kind of advice, so I have a few suggestions for you.

    Please read the CT Statutes carefully regarding the use of force and deadly force (531-18 through 53a-22): http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/pub/chap9...#Sec53a-18.htm

    If you have questions about the statutes consult a competent criminal defense attorney for clarification, several names have been brought up here, Ralph Sherman in NB, Rachel Baird, Martha Dean all come to mind...

    Finally, find some advanced tranining courses here in the state that in addition to shooting under stress, low light, tactical and whatever also cover the self defense laws here in the state and discuss them in detail, usually a lawyer is brought in for that purpose.

    ETA: Since you asked what would YOU do the best answer I can give is there are to many variables to your equation to give a firm answer, you have to consider a lot of things, like how many others are in the BK, where are they, does this guy have "friends" inside or outside, I think the first thing I would do if I could would be to use my phone to call 911 or local PD, believe it or not I have every CT local PD number in my contacts because 911 from a cell goes to a centralized 911 call center, even if I can't talk I want the line open to record what is happening. If the "gunman" had his back to me and I felt he was operating alone I would probably bash him over the head as hard as I could with something if I believed he would be unable to injure anyone once I hit him, if he has a gun trained on someone that may not be the best approach as he may fire the gun when struck, another alternative would be distract and disarm, not recommended if you have never had some training in that area and again you have to keep a watch out for bystanders who may get injured. Introduction of my firearm into the fray would be the last option. That's the best "hypothetical" I can give you for what I would do.
    Last edited by brk913; 10-24-2011 at 12:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H8Rain View Post
    Curious what YOU would do..... So it's late evening and I stopped at a Burger King. I've got my Glock with me and it's covered on my hip just because I'm wearing a large sweatshirt. There is a guy in front of me in line and he looks like trouble could happen any second.

    So my mind starts to wander and I think to myself, what would I do (or should I do) if he walks up to the counter, pulls out a gun and points it at the girl taking orders and asks for the money in the register?

    - Do I quietly step back and hide, hoping he just gets the money and leaves?
    - Do I draw my gun and try to stop the robbery?
    - Do I just shoot the guy with the defense who knows what he was going to do next with a gun?

    Curious what you guys would suggest. What would the police think. This is one of these situations where I fear if I do something wrong I'll wind up in jail. But then again, if I do something wrong someone may wind up dead, or I may wind up DEAD!
    Personally I'd step back quietly and hide. Burger King is not paying me for their security, I'm certainly not going to put my butt on the line for them. Now, should things turn pear shaped, I would not hesitate to defend myself or my children. As far as other people, I'm not quite as sure.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I probably would not leave my fellow man to an unknown fate, but that's always a personal decision that I would not tell anyone else how to make.

    That said, I'd probably move away quietly to create distance/create reaction time. I'd find something interesting over by the soda machine or decide that I wanted napkins before ordering, I might even pull out my phone ("dang! I was supposed to call Tim before lunch!") or pretend to check messages while aimlessly wandering about which just might happen to put me in a position to react without putting anyone in danger of missed shots.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-24-2011 at 01:49 PM.

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    As stated above, train regularly. Going to the range isn't training, it's shooting. Two different things entirely.

    On the situation at hand..... seems situational awareness was spot on. I'd indeed put a little distance between myself and the other guy. At that point, I won't try to escalate or get involved in the situation. My responsibility is to myself and my family first and foremost. I'm not a cop, superhero, etc. If the situation moves closer to my zone, then then I need to defend myself. The way I see it, I got my permit to protect myself and family, not play superhero cop like on TV.

    EVERY BULLET HAS AN ATTORNEY ATTACHED TO IT!

    There are just simply too many variables. You miss, hit the fry guy - you're screwed. Miss, hit the cashier, same thing. God forbid a kid or a pregnant woman should be in the room.

    Sounds cold, maybe. But this is my priority for why I got my permit and train regularly. At least annually, do something!

    There are some great books and training on the topic. Mas Ayoob's MAG 40 or MAG 20 come to mind. They cover a lot of the legal topics and ramifications.

    Jonathan
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    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    I can say that I've sat here for about 10 minutes thinking this one over and I can't say I have a definitive answer for you.

    It would greatly depend on other factors as others have said. In addition to the ones mentioned, it would also depend on my mood/mental state and the way I've sized this guy up. In TN I can shoot if I feel my life is in danger and have no duty to retreat. If someone pulls out a gun and starts robbing the place I'm at, I would definitely feel for my life and start shooting. However, if I felt like I could defuse the situation without shots fired, I would, but it was depend on more viarables than I care to enumerate.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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    Quote Originally Posted by H8Rain View Post

    Curious what you guys would suggest.
    If you really are that concerned with fighting crime I would suggest you consider a career in Law Enforcement. Just because you have a gun and a carry permit does not designate you a crime fighter.

    Ayoob's MAG-40 class was mentioned earlier (The class was called LFI-1 when I took it.). Everyone who carries a gun should take that class. The class on a scale of 1 to 10 is a 100. Most people have no idea how much they do not know.

    http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2...c189464345.txt

    Quote Originally Posted by H8Rain View Post
    - Do I just shoot the guy with the defense who knows what he was going to do next with a gun?
    That defense will get you a nice long time in prison. Ayoob would add; With a cell mate named Mongo who will do all sorts of unspeakable things to your body's orifices.
    Last edited by JohnO; 10-25-2011 at 12:35 AM.

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    Its funny, there was just such a situation in a Burger King within the last year. The idiot civilian announced in a command tone "Stop I've got a gun" or something like that. At which point the bad guy turned around and they had a gun fight inside a BK. Pure idiocy.

    In my mind there are 2 choices.

    1) if it appears that it is going to remain a property crime, do what I can to make my gun ready, but do my best to be invisible and hope it will remain a property crime.

    2) if it appears that the property crime is about to escalate and there appears to be only 1 BG, simply shoot him quietly in the back of the head. Remember, if its about to escalate, the guy is probably agitated. He's suffering from the same physiological stuff that happens in a gun fight. He's got tunnel vision, target fixation, and his hearing is ruined. Its a perfect situation for someone to deliver a "coup de grace" if necessary to save the life of an innocent. You do NOT WANT a fair fight. You don't get points for sportsmanlike conduct.

    All of this is driven by 1 simple selfish fact: I am going to do whatever is necessary to get home to my kids at night.

    Here's another thought that makes things far more complicated. What if your kids are with you. In my case, ages 2 and 3.

    Don

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    I would get out of line and walk to the car. If I have the kids I would say I left my wallet at home lets go kids.

    Maybe wait in the back of the parking lot for a few to see what happens if I need to call the police.

    The further away I am the better.
    Might be different if I know the people working there.
    But my life is worth infinite times more than anyone else.

    I hope BK allows the employees to carry, they're responsible for protecting themselves not me.

    Last thing I would do is pull out the gun and let him know I'm armed.
    If I fear for my life and cannot retreat 100% safely it is an easy decision me or him, I'm not looking to play fair distract them "Oh good the police are here" and shoot.

    I would be less nervous about the guy you know with a gun than his friends that you don't see.
    If a guy pulled a gun on my family, brother whatever I would think twice to just shoot, I would imagine it would be the same in reverse.


    So to answer I would run hide 911 if the gun starts point into my direction I'll fire. My Life #1

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Think twice. Seek distance and cover if you sense a yet unexposed threat like that. Agree with the 'every bullet is attached to an atty'.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    If you really are that concerned with fighting crime I would suggest you consider a career in Law Enforcement. Just because you have a gun and a carry permit does not designate you a crime fighter.

    Ayoob's MAG-40 class was mentioned earlier (The class was called LFI-1 when I took it.). Everyone who carries a gun should take that class. The class on a scale of 1 to 10 is a 100. Most people have no idea how much they do not know.

    http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2...c189464345.txt



    That defense will get you a nice long time in prison. Ayoob would add; With a cell mate named Mongo who will do all sorts of unspeakable things to your body's orifices.

    Although I Agee with most of this post. The last point is crap. Someone pointing a gun at an innocent is more than enough justification in CT. When I get home I'll cite the statute. I'll also provide a link to the Ct jury instructions in the use of self defense in a criminal defense.

    Ayoob is an author and a lecturer. He makes money by selling books and putting butts in seats. As such he tends to be overly dramatic.

    If you think I'm wrong then please link to or cite a single instance in CT in the last 20 years of a clean "good shoot" where someone was prosecuted.
    Last edited by dcmdon; 10-25-2011 at 01:58 PM.
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    I am not from CT, so i dont know the laws there.

    However. personally i would step back. place my hand on my weapon and find concealment *there is a difference between cover and concealment*

    i would pick a spot with a clear line of sight of the BG, and make sure noone was behind me *if rounds start popping i dont want a stray one meant for me to hit 5 year old sally and her kids meal*

    i would assess the situation, and if i felt that he was going to take the money and run, i would probably let him. however if i felt for a split second he was going to actually use the weapon on the cashier, i would move so that she was clear of any stray rounds of mine. and drop him.

    but thats only if i felt she was about to die. i am not a cop. burger king has billions of dollars, they can afford the loss.

    i however personally cannot afford to know someone died when i could have stopped it.

    but thats my opinion.

    remember if you use your weapon you are liable for every round that comes out of it, and whatever damage it creates. so even though your intentions may be good..........they can get you in trouble. be aware of your surroundings, whats behind you and what is behind your target ;-)
    Last edited by carry for myself; 10-25-2011 at 02:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    Although I Agee with most of this post. The last point is crap. Someone pointing a gun at an innocent is more than enough justification in CT. When I get home I'll cite the statute. I'll also provide a link to the Ct jury instructions in the use of self defense in a criminal defense.

    Ayoob is an author and a lecturer. He makes money by selling books and putting butts in seats. As such he tends to be overly dramatic.

    If you think I'm wrong then please link to or cite a single instance in CT in the last 20 years of a clean "good shoot" where someone was prosecuted.
    Come on, "pure crap", you could have disagreed more respectfully. Read what the OP wrote and then read my comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by H8Rain View Post
    - Do I just shoot the guy with the defense who knows what he was going to do next with a gun?
    So you are saying that anyone is perfectly justified in shooting a person with a gun because "who knows what he was going to do next"?

    I wrote: "That defense will get you a nice long time in prison." And I stand by that comment. The devil is in the details. I did not say he did the wrong thing by shooting. I found the rational as expressed severely lacking. One had better formulate a much more comprehensive defense that clearly states why you were in fear for your life or the life of others and be able to clearly articulate it. Thereby convincing all that any reasonable person would have taken the same course of action. That action as described must be found to be "Justifiable Homicide". Which in our legal system shifts the burden of proof back on you to "justify" your actions.

    Then hopefully the facts will be on your side. It sure would suck if it turned out that the guy had a Airsoft pistol. No, I am not saying that a toy gun that looked real gets you jammed up. However it surely would not make things easier.

    As a side note, always in the back of my mind lurks the ever present Mr. Murphy. Generating unending scenarios. 1. You never saw the perpetrator's accomplice. 2. A cop just happens to walk in the door and only sees you Pop the guy in front of you in line in the back of the head. 3. ...

    Regarding your comments about Ayoob being "overly dramatic". Sure the guy is running a business. He has to eat too. What do you want, someone who will tell you what usually happens or someone who tells you what actually can happen? When you are dealing with Life or Death I vote on knowing the entire spectrum of possibilities. If I were running the same kind of class I would feel remiss if I stuck to teaching only the routine scenarios.
    Last edited by JohnO; 10-25-2011 at 03:27 PM.

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    Regular Member Lenny Benedetto's Avatar
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    This is why I DO NOT eat that Burger King Crap!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    Its funny, there was just such a situation in a Burger King within the last year. The idiot civilian announced in a command tone "Stop I've got a gun" or something like that. At which point the bad guy turned around and they had a gun fight inside a BK. Pure idiocy.

    Don
    Cite?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    Cite?
    Not the person who stated this but here you go: http://hi-caliber.blogspot.com/2009/...-shootout.html


    ETA: Damn you Rich you are to fast for me...
    Last edited by brk913; 10-25-2011 at 03:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brk913 View Post


    ETA: Damn you Rich you are to fast for me...
    He does that to me too. Got me a couple weeks ago when I was doing the same thing.

    Jonathan
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    I have never seen a person drink tea from a coke bottle while standing on their head, that doesn't mean it is illegal.

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    cool, thanks guys!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    Come on, "pure crap", you could have disagreed more respectfully. Read what the OP wrote and then read my comment.



    So you are saying that anyone is perfectly justified in shooting a person with a gun because "who knows what he was going to do next"?

    I wrote: "That defense will get you a nice long time in prison." And I stand by that comment. The devil is in the details. I did not say he did the wrong thing by shooting. I found the rational as expressed severely lacking. One had better formulate a much more comprehensive defense that clearly states why you were in fear for your life or the life of others and be able to clearly articulate it. Thereby convincing all that any reasonable person would have taken the same course of action. That action as described must be found to be "Justifiable Homicide". Which in our legal system shifts the burden of proof back on you to "justify" your actions.

    Then hopefully the facts will be on your side. It sure would suck if it turned out that the guy had a Airsoft pistol. No, I am not saying that a toy gun that looked real gets you jammed up. However it surely would not make things easier.

    As a side note, always in the back of my mind lurks the ever present Mr. Murphy. Generating unending scenarios. 1. You never saw the perpetrator's accomplice. 2. A cop just happens to walk in the door and only sees you Pop the guy in front of you in line in the back of the head. 3. ...

    Regarding your comments about Ayoob being "overly dramatic". Sure the guy is running a business. He has to eat too. What do you want, someone who will tell you what usually happens or someone who tells you what actually can happen? When you are dealing with Life or Death I vote on knowing the entire spectrum of possibilities. If I were running the same kind of class I would feel remiss if I stuck to teaching only the routine scenarios.

    John O

    I didn't mean any disrespect. Let me clarify. The general tone of what you have written is a bit more . . cautious than any person's sense of ethics, and in fact, the laws of CT allow.

    If you as a reasonable person feel that either you or another person's are at risk of grave bodily harm, then you can lawfully use deadly physical force.

    Reality has shown that in CT, "innocent" people who are just protecting themselves are NOT prosecuted. In most cases they aren't even arrested.

    I can think of two cases in New Haven in just the last year, a very anti-gun town, where firearms were used defensively and the victim was not even arrested for his legal use of a handgun.

    If someone is holding up a Burger King with a toy gun, you would be legally and ethically justified if that gun appeared real to you. You would be squeaky clean.

    And yes, I am perfectly justified in shooting a guy with a gun who is using it for aggressive purposes because "who knows what he is going to do next".

    Based on your writing, you are a highly intelligent person who is just a little mis-informed. I suggest you give this a read:

    http://www.jud.ct.gov/JI/criminal/Part2/2.8-1.htm

    This is a good primer on the castle doctrine and the use of physical force by the CT Office of Legislative Research:
    http://www.cga.ct.gov/2007/rpt/2007-R-0052.htm

    To make a brief citation from the report:

    Physical Force in Defense of Person

    A person is justified in using reasonable physical force on another person to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of physical force. The defender may use the degree of force he reasonably believes is necessary to defend himself or a third person. But deadly physical force cannot be used unless the actor reasonably believes that the attacker is using or about to use deadly physical force or inflicting or about to inflict great bodily harm.

    Additionally, a person is not justified in using deadly physical force if he knows he can avoid doing so with complete safety by:

    1. retreating, except from his home or office in cases where he was not the initial aggressor or except in cases where he a peace officer, special policeman, or a private individual assisting a peace officer or special policeman at the officer's directions regarding an arrest or preventing an escape;

    2. surrendering possession to property the aggressor claims to own; or

    3. obeying a demand that he not take an action he is not otherwise required to take.


    The words to key in on here are "reasonable belief" and "complete safety".

    Don

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    Quote Originally Posted by PistolPackingMomma View Post
    Cite?
    http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2009/0...der-stops.html

    Here are the search results for this incident. It happened in Miami in March of 2009.

    http://www.google.com/search?gcx=w&s...g%2C+samaritan

    He argued with the BG and tried to get him to put his gun down. Stupid.
    Last edited by dcmdon; 10-26-2011 at 04:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcmdon View Post
    John O

    The general tone of what you have written is a bit more . . cautious than any person's sense of ethics, and in fact, the laws of CT allow.
    You want to know why? Because I think one surely should be cautious when it come to the use of Deadly Force. As well, past occurrences do not guarantee future results. Crap happens, there have been good shoots in many areas where the good guy got jammed up. Let us also not forget that in a Deadly Force scenario there can be two sides to the legal coin Criminal and Civil. Just because you have been "No Billed" or found innocent of criminal charges does not exclude you from civil proceedings. We all know that we live in a highly litigious society.

    I know what can happen. Callous as it may sound my duty is to myself and my family. I really do not need the financial burden of being a "Good Samaritan". That coin I mentioned earlier actually is multi-faceted. There are physiological implications to taking a life, unless that is, one happens to be a sociopath. Also one should not expect to be hailed as a conquering hero after a incident as purposed by the OP. There is the potential to achieve the status as a social pariah.

    As far as I am concerned everyone else has/had the right to do as I have done and obtain a gun and get trained. I'm not looking for a fight and I am going to walk away every time I can. However if I or one of my own is in jeopardy I just may be walking away with a little less ammo.

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    The best kind of gunfight to be in....

    We went over such a scenario in a class I took, actually the legal class and the shooting class.

    The question is "What is the best kind of gunfight to be in"
    various answers were put forth "the one where you have the drop on the guy", "the one where you have 2 guns", "the one where you have more people on your side" and so forth.

    I've given this a lot of thought and I have noticed that my situational awareness has increased several fold since I started carrying. My opinion was "The one I saw developing early on and went the other direction" which the instructor said was about the best thing. Nobody wants to get into a firefight, at least nobody I know does, but we don't plan on getting jammed up when we go about our daily lives. To me, the point of carrying is not that I'm going to get into a jam, but if a Jam finds its way to me I don't want to be left there begging for my life or that of my family, at least I'll have a chance.

    I'd be all for quietly retreating and leaving the premises and making the 911 call. If he gets away with cash, who cares, it's not my cash. They will get caught eventually. If shots start being fired then I'm going to get behind something solid and if an opportunity arises to take a shot with the risk of a backstop being an employee then I may well take the shot(s).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnO View Post
    You want to know why? Because I think one surely should be cautious when it come to the use of Deadly Force. As well, past occurrences do not guarantee future results. Crap happens, there have been good shoots in many areas where the good guy got jammed up. Let us also not forget that in a Deadly Force scenario there can be two sides to the legal coin Criminal and Civil. Just because you have been "No Billed" or found innocent of criminal charges does not exclude you from civil proceedings. We all know that we live in a highly litigious society.

    I know what can happen. Callous as it may sound my duty is to myself and my family. I really do not need the financial burden of being a "Good Samaritan". That coin I mentioned earlier actually is multi-faceted. There are physiological implications to taking a life, unless that is, one happens to be a sociopath. Also one should not expect to be hailed as a conquering hero after a incident as purposed by the OP. There is the potential to achieve the status as a social pariah.

    As far as I am concerned everyone else has/had the right to do as I have done and obtain a gun and get trained. I'm not looking for a fight and I am going to walk away every time I can. However if I or one of my own is in jeopardy I just may be walking away with a little less ammo.
    I didn't say one shouldn't be cautious. I used the word MORE to suggest that while I may be cautions, you appear to be MORE cautions. Please don't put words in my mouth.

    With that said, you don't have any argument with me re who I owe more to and your inclination to walk away. My first responsibility is to my family then myself. I will do anything necessary to maximize the chance that I will come home, including running away.

    However, if I felt that I could get a clean, unchallenged shot in on someone who was holding a gun on someone, I don't know exactly how I'd react.

    I think the best thing is to try to get to know yourself. Know your limits, strengths and weaknesses.

    I've been in 2 real situations in my life while carrying (I lived in New Haven in the late 80s and early 90s when the crime rate was MUCH higher than it is now) and they both worked out without having to fire a shot. So I am confident that my cool head will prevail.

    But I am going to share a stupid thing I did within the last two years that was pure idiocy. Its interesting, my other hobby, flying has culture where we share our screw ups with each other in the interest of learning something. Hopefully we won't make the same mistake.

    So here it is. My wife was away on business and I was sleeping with my dog on the bed. He was a field bred Lab and was very Alpha and assertive. Not like most labs. He was also very very territorial. So this night I'm asleep and am awakened by my dog flipping out. Barking, pacing, hair on his back standing up. I tell him to shut up and go back to sleep. Then I hear WHAM, coming from my front door. I'm in denial. tThen again, WHAM. Holy crap, someone is trying to kick in my front door.

    As an aside, I live in a nice town. I've been here for 20 years and in that time there has never been a homicide. In fact, other than domestics, there has never been a homicide in any adjacent town in as far as I can remember.

    So here I am. Denying whats happening. Then the noise again: WHAM!!!

    Like a switch I fiip to angry. . . ANGRY. HOW DARE THEY TRY TO COME INTO MY HOUSE. . Now I'm angry and aggressive. I grab my Glock 34 and surefire flashlight that I won in a raffle (I'm too cheap to buy one) and go down the stairs. Nixon, the dog is ahead of me barking his head off. I know the house instinctively, as we all know our own homes, and leave all lights off. As I'm passing the front door, WHAM!!!! I can see light come in from the outside as the door flexes against the deadbolt. I am TERRIFIED but very very angry.

    I decide to go out the back and flank him. As I come around the front of the house (naked) with the Glock and the flashlight, I light the home invader up. Only instead of seeing some burly ex-con from my nightmares, I see two apparentlyt drunk teenagers who have stupidly decided to smash my pumpkins by throwing them against my front door rather than in the street.

    They turn and see a (naked) man with a gun and a flashlight and take off into the dark. A few seconds later I see the lights come on on an old Suburban down the street and they take off.


    So . . what did I learn.

    1) Your perception IS your reality. For most of this encounter, I thought my home was being invaded
    2) KNOW YOUR TARGET - I got this one right.
    2) Don't get angry - I was the only human in the house. I should have gone to a defensible position and dialed 911. I put myself at much greater risk because I got angry.

    I learned a lot more, but my kid is crying and I need to get her. Flame away.

    Don

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Stratford, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    646

    surprise

    DMCDON that was a pretty good account and the way you narrated it I'd have probably thought the same thing, those two ******* kids were lucky they weren't shot.

    So what was the stupidest thing you did flying and got away with

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