Burger King Question.......

Curious what YOU would do..... So it's late evening and I stopped at a Burger King. I've got my Glock with me and it's covered on my hip just because I'm wearing a large sweatshirt. There is a guy in front of me in line and he looks like trouble could happen any second.

So my mind starts to wander and I think to myself, what would I do (or should I do) if he walks up to the counter, pulls out a gun and points it at the girl taking orders and asks for the money in the register?

- Do I quietly step back and hide, hoping he just gets the money and leaves?
- Do I draw my gun and try to stop the robbery?
- Do I just shoot the guy with the defense who knows what he was going to do next with a gun?

Curious what you guys would suggest. What would the police think. This is one of these situations where I fear if I do something wrong I'll wind up in jail. But then again, if I do something wrong someone may wind up dead, or I may wind up DEAD!

An internet forum is probably not the place to get this kind of advice, so I have a few suggestions for you.

Please read the CT Statutes carefully regarding the use of force and deadly force (531-18 through 53a-22): http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/pub/chap951.htm#Sec53a-18.htm

If you have questions about the statutes consult a competent criminal defense attorney for clarification, several names have been brought up here, Ralph Sherman in NB, Rachel Baird, Martha Dean all come to mind...

Finally, find some advanced tranining courses here in the state that in addition to shooting under stress, low light, tactical and whatever also cover the self defense laws here in the state and discuss them in detail, usually a lawyer is brought in for that purpose.

ETA: Since you asked what would YOU do the best answer I can give is there are to many variables to your equation to give a firm answer, you have to consider a lot of things, like how many others are in the BK, where are they, does this guy have "friends" inside or outside, I think the first thing I would do if I could would be to use my phone to call 911 or local PD, believe it or not I have every CT local PD number in my contacts because 911 from a cell goes to a centralized 911 call center, even if I can't talk I want the line open to record what is happening. If the "gunman" had his back to me and I felt he was operating alone I would probably bash him over the head as hard as I could with something if I believed he would be unable to injure anyone once I hit him, if he has a gun trained on someone that may not be the best approach as he may fire the gun when struck, another alternative would be distract and disarm, not recommended if you have never had some training in that area and again you have to keep a watch out for bystanders who may get injured. Introduction of my firearm into the fray would be the last option. That's the best "hypothetical" I can give you for what I would do.

H8Rain said:

Curious what YOU would do..... So it's late evening and I stopped at a Burger King. I've got my Glock with me and it's covered on my hip just because I'm wearing a large sweatshirt. There is a guy in front of me in line and he looks like trouble could happen any second.

So my mind starts to wander and I think to myself, what would I do (or should I do) if he walks up to the counter, pulls out a gun and points it at the girl taking orders and asks for the money in the register?

- Do I quietly step back and hide, hoping he just gets the money and leaves?
- Do I draw my gun and try to stop the robbery?
- Do I just shoot the guy with the defense who knows what he was going to do next with a gun?

Curious what you guys would suggest. What would the police think. This is one of these situations where I fear if I do something wrong I'll wind up in jail. But then again, if I do something wrong someone may wind up dead, or I may wind up DEAD!

Click to expand...

Personally I'd step back quietly and hide. Burger King is not paying me for their security, I'm certainly not going to put my butt on the line for them. Now, should things turn pear shaped, I would not hesitate to defend myself or my children. As far as other people, I'm not quite as sure.

I probably would not leave my fellow man to an unknown fate, but that's always a personal decision that I would not tell anyone else how to make.

That said, I'd probably move away quietly to create distance/create reaction time. I'd find something interesting over by the soda machine or decide that I wanted napkins before ordering, I might even pull out my phone ("dang! I was supposed to call Tim before lunch!") or pretend to check messages while aimlessly wandering about which just might happen to put me in a position to react without putting anyone in danger of missed shots.

As stated above, train regularly. Going to the range isn't training, it's shooting. Two different things entirely.

On the situation at hand..... seems situational awareness was spot on. I'd indeed put a little distance between myself and the other guy. At that point, I won't try to escalate or get involved in the situation. My responsibility is to myself and my family first and foremost. I'm not a cop, superhero, etc. If the situation moves closer to my zone, then then I need to defend myself. The way I see it, I got my permit to protect myself and family, not play superhero cop like on TV.

EVERY BULLET HAS AN ATTORNEY ATTACHED TO IT!

There are just simply too many variables. You miss, hit the fry guy - you're screwed. Miss, hit the cashier, same thing. God forbid a kid or a pregnant woman should be in the room.

Sounds cold, maybe. But this is my priority for why I got my permit and train regularly. At least annually, do something!

There are some great books and training on the topic. Mas Ayoob's MAG 40 or MAG 20 come to mind. They cover a lot of the legal topics and ramifications.

Jonathan

I can say that I've sat here for about 10 minutes thinking this one over and I can't say I have a definitive answer for you.

It would greatly depend on other factors as others have said. In addition to the ones mentioned, it would also depend on my mood/mental state and the way I've sized this guy up. In TN I can shoot if I feel my life is in danger and have no duty to retreat. If someone pulls out a gun and starts robbing the place I'm at, I would definitely feel for my life and start shooting. However, if I felt like I could defuse the situation without shots fired, I would, but it was depend on more viarables than I care to enumerate.

H8Rain said:

Curious what you guys would suggest.

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If you really are that concerned with fighting crime I would suggest you consider a career in Law Enforcement. Just because you have a gun and a carry permit does not designate you a crime fighter.

Ayoob's MAG-40 class was mentioned earlier (The class was called LFI-1 when I took it.). Everyone who carries a gun should take that class. The class on a scale of 1 to 10 is a 100. Most people have no idea how much they do not know.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2008/09/21/life/doc48d5ce4f178dc189464345.txt

H8Rain said:

- Do I just shoot the guy with the defense who knows what he was going to do next with a gun?

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That defense will get you a nice long time in prison. Ayoob would add; With a cell mate named Mongo who will do all sorts of unspeakable things to your body's orifices.

Its funny, there was just such a situation in a Burger King within the last year. The idiot civilian announced in a command tone "Stop I've got a gun" or something like that. At which point the bad guy turned around and they had a gun fight inside a BK. Pure idiocy.

In my mind there are 2 choices.

1) if it appears that it is going to remain a property crime, do what I can to make my gun ready, but do my best to be invisible and hope it will remain a property crime.

2) if it appears that the property crime is about to escalate and there appears to be only 1 BG, simply shoot him quietly in the back of the head. Remember, if its about to escalate, the guy is probably agitated. He's suffering from the same physiological stuff that happens in a gun fight. He's got tunnel vision, target fixation, and his hearing is ruined. Its a perfect situation for someone to deliver a "coup de grace" if necessary to save the life of an innocent. You do NOT WANT a fair fight. You don't get points for sportsmanlike conduct.

All of this is driven by 1 simple selfish fact: I am going to do whatever is necessary to get home to my kids at night.

Here's another thought that makes things far more complicated. What if your kids are with you. In my case, ages 2 and 3.

Don

I would get out of line and walk to the car. If I have the kids I would say I left my wallet at home lets go kids.

Maybe wait in the back of the parking lot for a few to see what happens if I need to call the police.

The further away I am the better.
Might be different if I know the people working there.
But my life is worth infinite times more than anyone else.

I hope BK allows the employees to carry, they're responsible for protecting themselves not me.

Last thing I would do is pull out the gun and let him know I'm armed.
If I fear for my life and cannot retreat 100% safely it is an easy decision me or him, I'm not looking to play fair distract them "Oh good the police are here" and shoot.

I would be less nervous about the guy you know with a gun than his friends that you don't see.
If a guy pulled a gun on my family, brother whatever I would think twice to just shoot, I would imagine it would be the same in reverse.


So to answer I would run hide 911 if the gun starts point into my direction I'll fire. My Life #1

Think twice. Seek distance and cover if you sense a yet unexposed threat like that. Agree with the 'every bullet is attached to an atty'.

JohnO said:

If you really are that concerned with fighting crime I would suggest you consider a career in Law Enforcement. Just because you have a gun and a carry permit does not designate you a crime fighter.

Ayoob's MAG-40 class was mentioned earlier (The class was called LFI-1 when I took it.). Everyone who carries a gun should take that class. The class on a scale of 1 to 10 is a 100. Most people have no idea how much they do not know.

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2008/09/21/life/doc48d5ce4f178dc189464345.txt



That defense will get you a nice long time in prison. Ayoob would add; With a cell mate named Mongo who will do all sorts of unspeakable things to your body's orifices.

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Although I Agee with most of this post. The last point is crap. Someone pointing a gun at an innocent is more than enough justification in CT. When I get home I'll cite the statute. I'll also provide a link to the Ct jury instructions in the use of self defense in a criminal defense.

Ayoob is an author and a lecturer. He makes money by selling books and putting butts in seats. As such he tends to be overly dramatic.

If you think I'm wrong then please link to or cite a single instance in CT in the last 20 years of a clean "good shoot" where someone was prosecuted.

I am not from CT, so i dont know the laws there.

However. personally i would step back. place my hand on my weapon and find concealment *there is a difference between cover and concealment*

i would pick a spot with a clear line of sight of the BG, and make sure noone was behind me *if rounds start popping i dont want a stray one meant for me to hit 5 year old sally and her kids meal*

i would assess the situation, and if i felt that he was going to take the money and run, i would probably let him. however if i felt for a split second he was going to actually use the weapon on the cashier, i would move so that she was clear of any stray rounds of mine. and drop him.

but thats only if i felt she was about to die. i am not a cop. burger king has billions of dollars, they can afford the loss.

i however personally cannot afford to know someone died when i could have stopped it.

but thats my opinion.

remember if you use your weapon you are liable for every round that comes out of it, and whatever damage it creates. so even though your intentions may be good..........they can get you in trouble. be aware of your surroundings, whats behind you and what is behind your target ;-)

dcmdon said:

Although I Agee with most of this post. The last point is crap. Someone pointing a gun at an innocent is more than enough justification in CT. When I get home I'll cite the statute. I'll also provide a link to the Ct jury instructions in the use of self defense in a criminal defense.

Ayoob is an author and a lecturer. He makes money by selling books and putting butts in seats. As such he tends to be overly dramatic.

If you think I'm wrong then please link to or cite a single instance in CT in the last 20 years of a clean "good shoot" where someone was prosecuted.

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Come on, "pure crap", you could have disagreed more respectfully. Read what the OP wrote and then read my comment.

H8Rain said:

- Do I just shoot the guy with the defense who knows what he was going to do next with a gun?

Click to expand...

So you are saying that anyone is perfectly justified in shooting a person with a gun because "who knows what he was going to do next"?

I wrote: "That defense will get you a nice long time in prison." And I stand by that comment. The devil is in the details. I did not say he did the wrong thing by shooting. I found the rational as expressed severely lacking. One had better formulate a much more comprehensive defense that clearly states why you were in fear for your life or the life of others and be able to clearly articulate it. Thereby convincing all that any reasonable person would have taken the same course of action. That action as described must be found to be "Justifiable Homicide". Which in our legal system shifts the burden of proof back on you to "justify" your actions.

Then hopefully the facts will be on your side. It sure would suck if it turned out that the guy had a Airsoft pistol. No, I am not saying that a toy gun that looked real gets you jammed up. However it surely would not make things easier.

As a side note, always in the back of my mind lurks the ever present Mr. Murphy. Generating unending scenarios. 1. You never saw the perpetrator's accomplice. 2. A cop just happens to walk in the door and only sees you Pop the guy in front of you in line in the back of the head. 3. ...

Regarding your comments about Ayoob being "overly dramatic". Sure the guy is running a business. He has to eat too. What do you want, someone who will tell you what usually happens or someone who tells you what actually can happen? When you are dealing with Life or Death I vote on knowing the entire spectrum of possibilities. If I were running the same kind of class I would feel remiss if I stuck to teaching only the routine scenarios.

This is why I DO NOT eat that Burger King Crap!

dcmdon said:

Its funny, there was just such a situation in a Burger King within the last year. The idiot civilian announced in a command tone "Stop I've got a gun" or something like that. At which point the bad guy turned around and they had a gun fight inside a BK. Pure idiocy.

Don

Click to expand...

Cite?

PistolPackingMomma said:

Cite?

Click to expand...

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/...eaves-robber-dead-and-good-samaritan-wounded/

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/gene...d-one-injured-miami-burger-king-shooting.html

http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI116328/

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/53334-miami-burger-king-shooting-customer-vs-robber.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2214015/posts

http://newbius.blogspot.com/2009/03/miami-burger-king-shooting.html

PistolPackingMomma said:

Cite?

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Not the person who stated this but here you go: http://hi-caliber.blogspot.com/2009/03/burger-king-shootout.html


ETA: Damn you Rich you are to fast for me...

brk913 said:

ETA: Damn you Rich you are to fast for me...

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He does that to me too. Got me a couple weeks ago when I was doing the same thing.

Jonathan

cool, thanks guys!

JohnO said:

Come on, "pure crap", you could have disagreed more respectfully. Read what the OP wrote and then read my comment.



So you are saying that anyone is perfectly justified in shooting a person with a gun because "who knows what he was going to do next"?

I wrote: "That defense will get you a nice long time in prison." And I stand by that comment. The devil is in the details. I did not say he did the wrong thing by shooting. I found the rational as expressed severely lacking. One had better formulate a much more comprehensive defense that clearly states why you were in fear for your life or the life of others and be able to clearly articulate it. Thereby convincing all that any reasonable person would have taken the same course of action. That action as described must be found to be "Justifiable Homicide". Which in our legal system shifts the burden of proof back on you to "justify" your actions.

Then hopefully the facts will be on your side. It sure would suck if it turned out that the guy had a Airsoft pistol. No, I am not saying that a toy gun that looked real gets you jammed up. However it surely would not make things easier.

As a side note, always in the back of my mind lurks the ever present Mr. Murphy. Generating unending scenarios. 1. You never saw the perpetrator's accomplice. 2. A cop just happens to walk in the door and only sees you Pop the guy in front of you in line in the back of the head. 3. ...

Regarding your comments about Ayoob being "overly dramatic". Sure the guy is running a business. He has to eat too. What do you want, someone who will tell you what usually happens or someone who tells you what actually can happen? When you are dealing with Life or Death I vote on knowing the entire spectrum of possibilities. If I were running the same kind of class I would feel remiss if I stuck to teaching only the routine scenarios.

Click to expand...

John O

I didn't mean any disrespect. Let me clarify. The general tone of what you have written is a bit more . . cautious than any person's sense of ethics, and in fact, the laws of CT allow.

If you as a reasonable person feel that either you or another person's are at risk of grave bodily harm, then you can lawfully use deadly physical force.

Reality has shown that in CT, "innocent" people who are just protecting themselves are NOT prosecuted. In most cases they aren't even arrested.

I can think of two cases in New Haven in just the last year, a very anti-gun town, where firearms were used defensively and the victim was not even arrested for his legal use of a handgun.

If someone is holding up a Burger King with a toy gun, you would be legally and ethically justified if that gun appeared real to you. You would be squeaky clean.

And yes, I am perfectly justified in shooting a guy with a gun who is using it for aggressive purposes because "who knows what he is going to do next".

Based on your writing, you are a highly intelligent person who is just a little mis-informed. I suggest you give this a read:

http://www.jud.ct.gov/JI/criminal/Part2/2.8-1.htm

This is a good primer on the castle doctrine and the use of physical force by the CT Office of Legislative Research:
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2007/rpt/2007-R-0052.htm

To make a brief citation from the report:

Physical Force in Defense of Person

A person is justified in using reasonable physical force on another person to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of physical force. The defender may use the degree of force he reasonably believes is necessary to defend himself or a third person. But deadly physical force cannot be used unless the actor reasonably believes that the attacker is using or about to use deadly physical force or inflicting or about to inflict great bodily harm.

Additionally, a person is not justified in using deadly physical force if he knows he can avoid doing so with complete safety by:

1. retreating, except from his home or office in cases where he was not the initial aggressor or except in cases where he a peace officer, special policeman, or a private individual assisting a peace officer or special policeman at the officer's directions regarding an arrest or preventing an escape;

2. surrendering possession to property the aggressor claims to own; or

3. obeying a demand that he not take an action he is not otherwise required to take.


The words to key in on here are "reasonable belief" and "complete safety".

Don