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Thread: VCDL Campus Protest @ ODU, 11/1/11 @12:30 pm

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    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    VCDL Campus Protest @ ODU, 11/1/11 @12:30 pm

    VCDL PROTEST @ ODU, 12:30 PM, 01 NOVEMBER

    Just received from PVC:

    _________________________

    **************************************************
    1. PROTEST AT ODU IS ON - MARK YOUR CALENDARS!
    **************************************************

    VCDL is teaming up with the Old Dominion University College Republicans to have VCDL's Operation Campus Safety protest/rally on Tuesday, November 1st, from 12:30 PM to 3:30 PM.

    We will be in the Kaufman Mall area of campus by the water fountain.

    We will have signs, brochures, and "No guns? No funds!" stickers. I am working out additional details with the College Republicans, such as parking arrangements, and a future update will cover the various items.

    ** I expect some media will probably be there and it would be great if we have a good showing - VCDL members, students, including those from other schools, alumni, and the general public are all welcome to show up and support us. **

    I would like to thank Michael Cogar with the College Republicans for his critical help in getting the protest set up at ODU.

    CARRY

    Based on a recent Supreme Court decision and backed by an opinion by Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli, carry is allowed outside of ODU's buildings for everyone who is otherwise lawfully carrying. Inside an ODU building is OK for CHP holders, but non-CHP holders may be asked to leave the buildings under threat of a trespass charge because of an ODU policy. HOWEVER, the only exception to this is that if you are ODU faculty, staff or an ODU student, then you can get fired or expelled, respectively.

    As always, VCDL leaves the decision to carry or not to carry and how to carry up to the individual.

    We encourage students from other schools to attend the protest and stand with ODU students.
    _____________________________________


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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    See post #74 at http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...s-Safety/page3 for info on a ride from Richmond.

    Phil may be setting up something for other carpools. Watch for a VA-ALERT on that.

    stay safe.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Hit this poll on guns on campus

    There is a poll question next to the article and gun owners are currently ahead. The question is tricky, but the pro-gun answer is "OPPOSE."

    "Do you support or oppose policies to prohibit holders of concealed-weapon permits [PVC: should be concealed HANDGUN permits] from bringing firearms into campus buildings?"

    http://tinyurl.com/3ptjgjw
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    Regular Member R50FJ60's Avatar
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    Wish I could be there!
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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Angry

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    There is a poll question next to the article and gun owners are currently ahead. The question is tricky, but the pro-gun answer is "OPPOSE."

    "Do you support or oppose policies to prohibit holders of concealed-weapon permits [PVC: should be concealed HANDGUN permits] from bringing firearms into campus buildings?"

    http://tinyurl.com/3ptjgjw
    The pro-perks answer is OPPOSE.

    The pro-freedom answer is not listed nor even considered in this context.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Regular Member Felix's Avatar
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    91% have voted "oppose" as I write this. Looks like the antis didn't RTFQ. Either that or this paper's readership is overwhelmingly pro-gun.
    Daily carry: SIG P229 .40 S&W

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felix View Post
    91% have voted "oppose" as I write this. Looks like the antis didn't RTFQ. Either that or this paper's readership is overwhelmingly pro-gun.
    Suspect that they didn't read and understand the information, but isn't the usual way for them?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    The pro-perks answer is OPPOSE.

    The pro-freedom answer is not listed nor even considered in this context.
    Ah, yes - the windmill approach to getting campus carry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    The pro-perks answer is OPPOSE.

    The pro-freedom answer is not listed nor even considered in this context.
    Even with just a CHP approach, unless the CHP age is dropped to ensure eligibility by those age 18, a bill to allow for carry on campus for those who hold CHPs won't even help the vast majority of the enrolled students on campus. According to http://admissions.odu.edu/graduate.php?page=stats there are a total of about 24,000 students enrolled at ODU. About 18,500 are undergrad students and 84% of that number, about 16,000, are on campus (I take that to mean living on campus, but that could be those who aren't taking online courses). From my college experience, lower-classmen are the ones who live on campus so it's probably a fair estimate to say most of theose 16,000 undergrad students are under age 21 (not juniors or seniors).

    Those underclassmen are often required to live on campus unless they are locals, so they would have no place to keep a gun for ready use even when they are done with classes at the end of the day. Those who live off-campus, typically upper classmen, would have the option to keep a gun at home or even with them briefly in the car while parked if they are willing to take their chances getting caught. The underclassmen who live on campus then are left to walk around campus (which is their home) defenseless.

    If underclassmen are left unarmed, that would leave only upperclassmen and grad students and the small number of faculty or staff that could reasonably respond to an armed threat. Unfortunately the upperclassmen, grad students and vast majority of the faculty and staff won't be around in the classes that underclassmen take, which are the classes which have the most people.

    I should note here that I do absolutely do agree with the concept of withholding donation funds until schools allow their students and staff to carry!
    Last edited by jmelvin; 10-26-2011 at 09:36 AM.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCDL President View Post
    Ah, yes - the windmill approach to getting campus carry.
    I really don't follow.

    Or... you don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Even with just a CHP approach, unless the CHP age is dropped to ensure eligibility by those age 18, a bill to allow for carry on campus for those who hold CHPs won't even help the vast majority of the enrolled students on campus.
    I have been screaming this exact thing for over a year now.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    I really don't follow.

    Or... you don't.I have been screaming this exact thing for over a year now.
    Yeah I know. I've thought the same thing. I'm close enough to college years that I recall what actually happens. A CHP process applicable only to the older students doesn't do jack for the people who are most likely spend their entire time on the campus and be exposed to the on-campus or near campus crime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Yeah I know. I've thought the same thing. I'm close enough to college years that I recall what actually happens. A CHP process applicable only to the older students doesn't do jack for the people who are most likely spend their entire time on the campus and be exposed to the on-campus or near campus crime.
    VCDL is coming at different angles on the issue. But the Board does not feel the the "No Guns? No Funds?" campaign would be successful if we go beyond permit holders. Our other approaches might fix that problem. Nothing is guaranteed, hence the multiple prong approach.

    For those who like to sit back and pooh-pooh VCDL's efforts as being merely "P4P", by all means set up and coordinate your own rally to allow open carry for 18 and up at all the public universities and colleges. I hope you succeed! But in the meantime VCDL is taking the permit holder carry path with these protests. Better to have some able to defend themselves than none - something trumps nothing every time.

    As I've said before, VCDL likes Constitutional Carry and will continue to push the issue, but we will NOT stop forward movement for CHP holders in the meantime.

    And now I pause for the usual "P4P" crowd to jump in, guns 'a blazin'. ;-)

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    Regular Member t33j's Avatar
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    ODU in particular has very many students that they like to call "non-traditional". They are all 21+; many of them are military. I'd estimate about 1/5 of the makeup of my classes over the past year has been "non-traditional". I can't say that's the same for elsewhere.
    Last edited by t33j; 10-26-2011 at 09:18 PM.
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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    The pro-perks answer is OPPOSE.

    The pro-freedom answer is not listed nor even considered in this context.
    +1. The "CORRECT" answer is not there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCDL President View Post
    VCDL is coming at different angles on the issue. But the Board does not feel the the "No Guns? No Funds?" campaign would be successful if we go beyond permit holders. Our other approaches might fix that problem. Nothing is guaranteed, hence the multiple prong approach.

    For those who like to sit back and pooh-pooh VCDL's efforts as being merely "P4P", by all means set up and coordinate your own rally to allow open carry for 18 and up at all the public universities and colleges. I hope you succeed! But in the meantime VCDL is taking the permit holder carry path with these protests. Better to have some able to defend themselves than none - something trumps nothing every time.

    As I've said before, VCDL likes Constitutional Carry and will continue to push the issue, but we will NOT stop forward movement for CHP holders in the meantime.

    And now I pause for the usual "P4P" crowd to jump in, guns 'a blazin'. ;-)
    Since you quoted me you should probably take note that in my first post above I said I like the "No Guns No Funds" pitch. My only issue with the CHP only thing is it doesn't help most of the students, who aren't even eligible for permits.

    Frankly you can only get people worked up a limited number of times to support major changes like this in the legislature. My opinion is the big lobby groups with the most numbers of members should go for the gold (OC and CC, like anywhere else in the state) from the start and if the GA isn't willing to go along immediately take what you can get and then keep the pressure up. This constant push from VCDL for those who don't like perks-for-permittees to take their time and energy elsewhere because they aren't wanted will only serve to splinter the effort. If the life of the student is really precious and worthy of defense why not work hard from the start to ensure that all of their lives can be protected? You can't force the GA's hand, but you can choose what message to push to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Since you quoted me you should probably take note that in my first post above I said I like the "No Guns No Funds" pitch. My only issue with the CHP only thing is it doesn't help most of the students, who aren't even eligible for permits.

    Frankly you can only get people worked up a limited number of times to support major changes like this in the legislature. My opinion is the big lobby groups with the most numbers of members should go for the gold (OC and CC, like anywhere else in the state) from the start and if the GA isn't willing to go along immediately take what you can get and then keep the pressure up. This constant push from VCDL for those who don't like perks-for-permittees to take their time and energy elsewhere because they aren't wanted will only serve to splinter the effort. If the life of the student is really precious and worthy of defense why not work hard from the start to ensure that all of their lives can be protected? You can't force the GA's hand, but you can choose what message to push to them.
    We HAVE pushed for the "gold" several times: state-agency preemption. We will continue that fight and will win it at some point. In the meantime we continue the fight for CHP holders via the "No guns? No funds" protests.

    We kept the pressure up on the restaurant ban repeal for over 10 years, so you can keep the issue going for a long time. Sometimes your only choice is a protracted battle - so be it.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by VCDL President View Post
    Sometimes your only choice is a protracted battle - so be it.
    Siege warfare.

    My favorite.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCDL President View Post
    We HAVE pushed for the "gold" several times: state-agency preemption. We will continue that fight and will win it at some point. In the meantime we continue the fight for CHP holders via the "No guns? No funds" protests.

    We kept the pressure up on the restaurant ban repeal for over 10 years, so you can keep the issue going for a long time. Sometimes your only choice is a protracted battle - so be it.
    Understood. I certainly wasn't saying it hadn't been done before.

    The notable difference on the restaurant carry thing though was that anyone over age 18 could legally carry in places serving alcohol without a permit already. This was not something that was restricted to anyone other than those who cannot lawfully carry anyway. I'm certainly not suggesting pushing for concealed carry in restaurants and such was wrong, it was definitely the right thing to do. I am saying, however, that it was a completely different scenario that even I fought for even though I primarily carry openly.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 10-27-2011 at 03:35 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Siege warfare.

    My favorite.
    It may be slow, but it is a tried and true battle plan. I too like the full-frontal assault method but I will take a siege over nothing.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    I too like the full-frontal assault method but I will take a siege over nothing.
    I prefer a flanking attack, you know, like Little Round Top was SUPPOSED to be.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Understood. I certainly wasn't saying it hadn't been done before.

    The notable difference on the restaurant carry thing though was that anyone over age 18 could legally carry in places serving alcohol without a permit already. This was not something that was restricted to anyone other than those who cannot lawfully carry anyway. I'm certainly not suggesting pushing for concealed carry in restaurants and such was wrong, it was definitely the right thing to do. I am saying, however, that it was a completely different scenario that even I fought for even though I primarily carry openly.
    Yes, but the restaurant ban repeal was very important to many gun owners. Let's give an example. Let's say you are a businessman and your job doesn't deal with guns. Your customers don't know you carry and it is none of their business, so it is simply kept concealed while conducting business. You take your customer to lunch at a restaurant that serves alcohol, NOW WHAT? In the past you would then have to start open carrying - and that could cause the conversation to drift in unpredictable directions. People have a right to their privacy, not everyone wants to open carry and they get a permit so they don't have to. Nothing wrong with that - I know I like choices and options.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCDL President View Post
    Yes, but the restaurant ban repeal was very important to many gun owners. Let's give an example. Let's say you are a businessman and your job doesn't deal with guns. Your customers don't know you carry and it is none of their business, so it is simply kept concealed while conducting business. You take your customer to lunch at a restaurant that serves alcohol, NOW WHAT? In the past you would then have to start open carrying - and that could cause the conversation to drift in unpredictable directions. People have a right to their privacy, not everyone wants to open carry and they get a permit so they don't have to. Nothing wrong with that - I know I like choices and options.
    Personal choices, personal options is what this is all about - not government mandated requirements.
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    That's exactly why I said it was good that concealed carry was a good option to add! I am the type of businessman / professional worker who was affected by the lack of options when dining out with co-workers or customers.

    However, this has nothing to do with the campus carry discussion for the vast majority of students, who happen to be 18-20 years of age. These are the freshmen through junior level students. Their counterparts (generally older juniors, seniors and grad students) who happen to be over the age of 21 and generally live off campus may have the option to carry in some manner (not at all; or concealed; or possibly openly) because they have a CHP, however those that don't meet the age requirement have no "legal" option at all. They could choose to violate campus policy and be thrown out for unlicensed open carry, they could violate campus policy and state law and carry concealed illegally and against campus policy, or they can continue to exercise the no option policy and walk around unarmed perfectly legally while exposing their very own lives to the whims of criminals because it wasn't politically expedient for the groups which have the largest numbers and biggest voice to fight for their lives. When it comes down to it, that's the whole reason many of us even care a bit about carrying guns: That is because it is about the protection of innocent lives!

    Those who attend community colleges, which mostly cater to the 18-20 crowd because of the lack of 4 year programs, will remain unable to carry any means of protection, because they are legally forbidden from applying for a CHP. Now I realize that a fair number of adults attend community colleges as well, but these are the places where many in the 18-20 year age range start out with intents to go to other colleges afterward as upperclassmen assuming some thief, rapist or murderer doesn't prevent them from getting there first.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 10-28-2011 at 10:09 AM.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Those who attend community colleges, which mostly cater to the 18-20 crowd because of the lack of 4 year programs, will remain unable to carry any means of protection, because they are legally forbidden from applying for a CHP. Now I realize that a fair number of adults attend community colleges as well, but these are the places where many in the 18-20 year age range start out with intents to go to other colleges afterward as upperclassmen assuming some thief, rapist or murderer doesn't prevent them from getting there first.
    That's not accurate if you consider TCC.

    And I have been ejected from a TCC campus for OC.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
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    Don't know specifically what wasn't accurate or what TCC is. My statement regarding who attends community colleges was a general statement, not necessarily aimed at any specific one. Demographics change school to school or even location by location and year by year.

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