VCDL Campus Protest @ ODU, 11/1/11 @12:30 pm

VCDL President · Oct 28, 2011

jmelvin said:
Understood. I certainly wasn't saying it hadn't been done before.

The notable difference on the restaurant carry thing though was that anyone over age 18 could legally carry in places serving alcohol without a permit already. This was not something that was restricted to anyone other than those who cannot lawfully carry anyway. I'm certainly not suggesting pushing for concealed carry in restaurants and such was wrong, it was definitely the right thing to do. I am saying, however, that it was a completely different scenario that even I fought for even though I primarily carry openly.

Yes, but the restaurant ban repeal was very important to many gun owners. Let's give an example. Let's say you are a businessman and your job doesn't deal with guns. Your customers don't know you carry and it is none of their business, so it is simply kept concealed while conducting business. You take your customer to lunch at a restaurant that serves alcohol, NOW WHAT? In the past you would then have to start open carrying - and that could cause the conversation to drift in unpredictable directions. People have a right to their privacy, not everyone wants to open carry and they get a permit so they don't have to. Nothing wrong with that - I know I like choices and options.

Grapeshot · Oct 28, 2011

VCDL President said:
Yes, but the restaurant ban repeal was very important to many gun owners. Let's give an example. Let's say you are a businessman and your job doesn't deal with guns. Your customers don't know you carry and it is none of their business, so it is simply kept concealed while conducting business. You take your customer to lunch at a restaurant that serves alcohol, NOW WHAT? In the past you would then have to start open carrying - and that could cause the conversation to drift in unpredictable directions. People have a right to their privacy, not everyone wants to open carry and they get a permit so they don't have to. Nothing wrong with that - I know I like choices and options.

Personal choices, personal options is what this is all about - not government mandated requirements.

jmelvin · Oct 28, 2011

That's exactly why I said it was good that concealed carry was a good option to add! I am the type of businessman / professional worker who was affected by the lack of options when dining out with co-workers or customers.

However, this has nothing to do with the campus carry discussion for the vast majority of students, who happen to be 18-20 years of age. These are the freshmen through junior level students. Their counterparts (generally older juniors, seniors and grad students) who happen to be over the age of 21 and generally live off campus may have the option to carry in some manner (not at all; or concealed; or possibly openly) because they have a CHP, however those that don't meet the age requirement have no "legal" option at all. They could choose to violate campus policy and be thrown out for unlicensed open carry, they could violate campus policy and state law and carry concealed illegally and against campus policy, or they can continue to exercise the no option policy and walk around unarmed perfectly legally while exposing their very own lives to the whims of criminals because it wasn't politically expedient for the groups which have the largest numbers and biggest voice to fight for their lives. When it comes down to it, that's the whole reason many of us even care a bit about carrying guns: That is because it is about the protection of innocent lives!

Those who attend community colleges, which mostly cater to the 18-20 crowd because of the lack of 4 year programs, will remain unable to carry any means of protection, because they are legally forbidden from applying for a CHP. Now I realize that a fair number of adults attend community colleges as well, but these are the places where many in the 18-20 year age range start out with intents to go to other colleges afterward as upperclassmen assuming some thief, rapist or murderer doesn't prevent them from getting there first.

wylde007 · Oct 28, 2011

jmelvin said:
Those who attend community colleges, which mostly cater to the 18-20 crowd because of the lack of 4 year programs, will remain unable to carry any means of protection, because they are legally forbidden from applying for a CHP. Now I realize that a fair number of adults attend community colleges as well, but these are the places where many in the 18-20 year age range start out with intents to go to other colleges afterward as upperclassmen assuming some thief, rapist or murderer doesn't prevent them from getting there first.

That's not accurate if you consider TCC.

And I have been ejected from a TCC campus for OC.

jmelvin · Oct 28, 2011

Don't know specifically what wasn't accurate or what TCC is. My statement regarding who attends community colleges was a general statement, not necessarily aimed at any specific one. Demographics change school to school or even location by location and year by year.

45acpForMe · Oct 28, 2011

Panties Bound Up

I don't know why people continue to get their panties all wound up.

This protest was to specifically target the actions of the universities that are pushing for regulations against guns since the Cuch told us their policies don't carry the force of law.

Philip/Pres ---"""IS"""--- addressing all issues in different ways via different avenues. Constitutional carry is on the agenda which takes care of the under 21 crowd. State agency preemption would take care of the VCU/GMU existing regulations and stop other "agencies/universities" from enacting any regulations via the legislature. I am sure there are other "pieces" of the 2A-action-plan out there that I don't know about but am happy to support.

I am trying to arrange my work schedule to attend this event. I will probably arrive late and have to leave early but I hope to protest for an hour or so.

Who else is attending?

wylde007 · Oct 28, 2011

jmelvin said:
Don't know specifically what wasn't accurate or what TCC is.

Tidewater Community College.

A lot of military and adult professionals attend their campuses. I would say maybe as much as 50% or more.

jmelvin · Oct 28, 2011

Thanks for the reminder of the different ways to skin this cat 45acpforme!

Thanks for the clarification Wylde!

kimbercarrier · Oct 30, 2011

Is the Kaufman Mall on 48th st? I googled it and that's what seems to come up.

t33j · Oct 30, 2011

kimbercarrier said:
Is the Kaufman Mall on 48th st? I googled it and that's what seems to come up.

It's the grassy area with crisscrossing sidewalks just outside of the Webb center. I think I remember reading something about meeting at the lion. It's usually a fairly busy area when the weather is nice.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=36.886414,-76.305402&spn=0.00066,0.001032&t=h&z=21&vpsrc=6

49th street parking is an hour or two and well enforced. I think there are meters in the parking garage on 49th but I'm not sure. There are a couple of meters in the lot at 49th and Elkhorn or the lot on Elkhorn between 49th and 43rd. Parking on Bluestone Ave. is time limited also but I don't know what it is. The large parking lot on the East side of Hampton Blvd. near the Elementary School should have plenty of spaces. It's student parking but I don't think it ever gets checked.

VCDL President · Oct 31, 2011

Parking info

Michael Cogar, President of the College Republicans, has arranged parking for those supporting the VCDL protest! We can park in Garage E on levels 3-5. Garage E is at the intersection of 49th and Bluestone.

Once you park in the garage, cross 49th street and go around the first building you come to (Constant Hall). The protest will be in the open mall area, marked with a fountain, between Constant Hall and Kaufman Hall. The event starts at 12:30 PM. I will be there around 12 noon, maybe earlier to get the "lay of the land."

USNA69 · Oct 31, 2011

Anti-gunners to counter-protest at ODU

Just received from PVC:

"Apparently there is going to be a "counter-protest" held by Andrew Goddard the same time that VCDL is holding its protest. The College Democrats, showing their disdain for liberty, are the sponsors.

I spoke to the ODU Police Chief today and he had just learned of the counter-protest himself! I told him that do to past bad experiences with the antis committing battery (shoving some of our members) at Lobby Day rallies, I hoped that the antis would be placed in a different part of the campus. He assured me that they would be. Hopefully they'll key an eye on that bunch.

Gee, I wonder if the antis even bothered to get a permit for their counter-protest.

In the hopefully unlikely event that there is some kind of physical assault on any of you (shoving, intentionally blocking your path, grabbing you, etc.), there will be a police presence, albeit low-key, which can handle such problems.

We, as always, must be on our best behavior, even if no one else is.

Another thought: you might consider carrying a voice recorder during the protest. Just leave it running to record all interactions going on around you.

Here's the article on the counter-protest with my embedded comments. The antis are getting pounded in the comments being left by readers.

From the Virginian-Pilot: http://tinyurl.com/3n94on9"

Here is the comment I added:

"The safest that the gun control advocates (and everybody else) will EVER be on the ODU campus will be Tuesday, November 1st, from 12:30 to 3:30.
And that is the lesson to be learned from all of this. When the robber, rapist, and murderer knows that his potential victims may be armed, he will go elswhere. When he knows that will be unarmed, he may select his victims without fear."

DJEEPER · Oct 31, 2011

received this in the mail today... i thought his word choices were "interesting".....

Dear Campus Community:

Tomorrow, two organizations will be holding events on campus relating to weapons policies at colleges and universities in Virginia.

The Virginia Citizens Defense League and Students for Gun Free Schools will be supporting opposite sides of the debate on whether universities should permit weapons on their campuses. Similar events are being planned for the College of William and Mary, Virginia Tech, George Mason, James Madison, Virginia Commonwealth and Radford universities.

The debate was sparked by recent actions of ODU and other state colleges and universities to change their existing weapons policies to regulations.

Since some media reports haven’t accurately captured what prompted this move by Virginia universities, I thought it would be helpful to the Old Dominion community to provide the background.

For more than two decades, ODU has had a policy prohibiting firearms in its buildings and athletic facilities. This past summer, Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli issued an opinion that universities’ policies banning the possession of firearms on campus do not apply to visitors – uninvited guests, specifically – who have a concealed carry permit.

The attorney general’s guidance was for colleges and universities to enact regulations, which carry the force of law, to ban any visitor from entering university facilities while armed. So, this fall, Old Dominion began that process. After review from the attorney general’s office, the university’s regulation will be presented to the Board of Visitors for approval.

These actions do not represent a change in our rules or our philosophy to weapons on campus. The same rules we have had in place for years will still remain; only they will now be enforced by a legally sound regulation.

Sincerely,

John R. Broderick

President

TFred · Nov 1, 2011

The "mentality" of liberals, including anti-gun liberals

I'm not able to make the protest tomorrow, but after reading the notes from PVC and the President of ODU this evening, I could not help but remember a fairly often quoted column by Charles Krauthammer, written originally all the way back in the summer of 2002! He then first observed these thoughts on the difference between liberals and conservatives:

"To understand the workings of American politics, you have to understand this fundamental law: Conservatives think liberals are stupid. Liberals think conservatives are evil."

Why is this important? You may recognize this quote as it is often repeated and it is also the basis of new analysis of today's culture. Even though it is nine years old, I think it is still spot-on accurate and critical to understand some of the motivations of today's "protest culture".

Over the years, I have come to realize that liberals are not actually "stupid". They certainly do sometimes appear so, to those of us who are on the conservative side, but the true situation is more along the lines of another famous quote by Ronald Reagan: "Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so." It's all about the world-view. Liberals see the world as it could be. Conservatives see the world as it is. Anti-gunners live in an imaginary world where it is actually possible to remove all guns, and where criminals can be made to behave. Therefore they strive to bring their physical world to reach that state.

And I am more convinced every day that the liberals do indeed consider us to be "evil". This is partly what motivates them, especially when their means devolve into areas we might consider less than fully ethical. They see questionable means as a justified path to a noble end.

My point here? Not much, other than just to shed some light on what might be going on inside the heads of those who will be disagreeing with you at the protest, and hopefully with that understanding, you will better understand their motives, and why they often seem so desperate, to the point well beyond what we would consider rational.

Take it for what it's worth.

TFred

45acpForMe · Nov 1, 2011

TFred said:
I'm not able to make the protest tomorrow, but after reading the notes from PVC and the President of ODU this evening, I could not help but remember a fairly often quoted column by Charles Krauthammer, written originally all the way back in the summer of 2002! He then first observed these thoughts on the difference between liberals and conservatives:

"To understand the workings of American politics, you have to understand this fundamental law: Conservatives think liberals are stupid. Liberals think conservatives are evil."

...
TFred

While I agree with the above it isn't accurate anymore. Liberals are evil whether they actively choose to be evil or are useful idiots. As time marches on and conditions continue to get worse we can not suffer liberals anymore. Just as you would suffer a misbehaving teenager because of love, when the sh1t hits the fan and your family's life/security are at stake the misbehaving teenager needs to be slammed down hard and brought back to reality or banished to save the innocent. We "conservatives" have been WAITING for liberals to recognize the logic and facts that are on our side that have piled up for eternity. The truth is they don't and won't ever concede to logic and truth. They argue emotional provably-false arguments in spite of facts, logic and reason. They are the enemy to peace and freedom and need to be defeated.

I would also argue that liberals think conservatives are stupid because we continually put up with their double standards where they can do no wrong but they will hound a conservative politician for the smallest of errors. Liberals hounded Bush jr for legally going to congress and declaring war on Iraq but don't seem to care that Obummer didn't seem to think that the congress was needed to go into Libya, just the UN and Islamic Council's permission was needed.

I am all for waking liberals up but don't hold my breath for any of them!

[end soapbox]

Grapeshot · Nov 1, 2011

TFred said:
------snip-----
My point here? Not much, other than just to shed some light on what might be going on inside the heads of those who will be disagreeing with you at the protest, and hopefully with that understanding, you will better understand their motives, and why they often seem so desperate, to the point well beyond what we would consider rational.

Take it for what it's worth.

Don't have to convince all of them of the fallacies in their thinking - just enough of them and that might be a precious few in the right places!

What frustrates them is that nobody takes them seriously any more and we are winning by still greater margins. We should thank them for their efforts - they provide the antithesis to reasonable. intelligent thought.

Today we begin at ODU - very much looking forward to it!

We have the House, next the Senate.

wylde007 · Nov 1, 2011

I Received This Gem Yesterday

Dear Colleagues:

I received a communication from a colleague informing me of the Gun-rights group that will be holding rally tomorrow November 1 at ODU's Kaufman Mall to oppose restrictions on carrying concealed weapons on campus (SEE 10/25/11 Virginian Pilot Story below). According to the information I received, the Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) is saying that they plan to visit all public college campuses in Virginia to advocate for loaded guns (concealed carry) on campus. Right now they have picked ODU to be the first site of one of their rallies followed by Virginia Tech in November. According to the information, The Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL)—a radical pro-gun group that seeks the elimination of all gun laws, including background checks—and the ODU Young Republicans will be on Kaufman Mall at Old Dominion University from 12:30 to 3:30PM calling for legislation to force the university to allow the carrying of loaded guns on campus.

The information I received indicated that Students for Gun Free Schools (SGFS) is helping to organize a counter protest with representatives of gun violence prevention organizations, students/faculty - the goal is to be respectful but to make the point that ODU needs to be able to set its own firearm policies. There will be several members of Virginia Tech families present including Omar Samaha, President of SGFS, whose sister Reema was killed at Virginia Tech. Andy Goddard and Lori Haas (VACPS State board members) parents of students who were wounded and survived the shootings at Va Tech will also be in attendance. Also in attendance and helping to organize the counter protest is Jeanette Richardson. Her 18 year old son was murdered in their front yard on Jan. 1, 2004. http://vacps.org/ tells the story Patrick Wyatt Richardson: A Portrait Unfinished.

Following a ruling by Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli last summer that said public colleges must put official regulations in place to ban guns in campus buildings, ODU moved quickly to develop such a regulation (patterned after one at George Mason University that has been upheld by the Virginia Supreme Court). VCDL has called for state legislation that would prohibit ODU and other universities from enacting such regulations, thereby preventing them from ensuring the safety of their students and faculty.

As an ODU faculty member, I will be in attendance to support ODU’s regulatory approach opposing the carrying of concealed weapons on campus. I hope you can join me.

Lou Lombardo
Department of Sociology and Criminal Justice

Sociology and Criminal Justice? And this is the opinion he has of Constitutional RIGHTS? What business does he have teaching at university?

I provided this comment to the same mailing list to which I was attached:

Congratulations, you are part of the problem.

Regulatory action does nothing to prevent armed criminals from entering campus facilities and engaging in criminal activities. If policies and regulations PREVENTED crime, then Cho would not have successfully murdered 32 people and the crime rate on and around the ODU campus would be much lower.

The fact of the matter is that criminals don't obey the law and the only thing your petty, liberty-infringing regulations do is ensure that citizens are rendered defenseless in, on and around campus as they go to and from their classes and jobs.

Your "regulations" are creating an environment where criminals will know that they do not face any resistance from their victims.

As a former adjunct professor at ODU I am appalled by your lack of practicality and reason and I would be greatly concerned for what kind of education a young person might receive from such an obvious hoplophobe.

Hopefully more regulations will not be entertained and, if they are, alumni contributions to ODU programs will plummet.

Consequently I have received several responses to this, one of which disturbs me greatly:

Your attitude is the biggest crock of BS imaginable, I am appalled that there are idiots like you promoting such an insane stance. Guns are not needed anywhere and should be totally banned, They practically never save lives but frequently result in the loss of innocent lives.

Frank P. Day, Ph.D.
Professor and Eminent Scholar
Department of Biological Sciences
Old Dominion University
Norfolk, VA 23529

This is the kind of person who is TEACHING our young people.

It terrifies me that people who are so "educated" have no concept of social responsibility or the ability to reason. I am almost at a loss for words when dealing with such absolutely irrational antis.

t33j · Nov 1, 2011

wylde007 said:
^^

What a complete lack of connection with reality and documented facts. I guess that fits the stereotype.

wylde007 · Nov 1, 2011

t33j said:
What a complete lack of connection with reality and documented facts. I guess that fits the stereotype.

Dude, I was shocked.

I am seriously offended that people like that are professors.

45acpForMe · Nov 1, 2011

I attended from 12:30-2pm and there was a good turnout. The anti-protest was smaller than ours event though they chanted a couple times unintelligibly. I saw Philip being interviewed by Wavy TV10 so am looking forward to their coverage.

Talking with another VCDL member we agreed that the ODU students were very receptive to the message. They ALL knew crime was a problem and most we talked to wanted to learn more. One person knew of a friend robbed and a young woman said one of her friends was killed.

It was a bit amusing because I even talked with a ODU parking attendant, Top Job security guard as well as a couple professors. A few people were surprised that I wasn't a LEO and could carry on campus. Out of all the good conversations I had only one man become a little snarky with me about returning the campus to the wild west. My voice is a little hoarse and thank you to others that could stay longer.

Looking forwared to the William & Mary protest.

VCDL Campus Protest @ ODU, 11/1/11 @12:30 pm

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