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Thread: Can my firearm be removed in this scenario?

  1. #1
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    Can my firearm be removed in this scenario?

    I am an open-carry advocate in North Carolina. I was downtown with my girlfriend, and a brawl broke out across the street at the bar. In the event that anyone involved had a weapon, I walked over with my revolver secured openly on my hip, where it remained as I tried to sense-talk and mediate. When police arrived, the men who were fighting were led off to the side for questioning, but an officer noticed my revolver and asked what my involvement was. I informed him that I was a sober bystander who knew no one involved in the fight, and merely wished to do my civic duty in the event of an escalation of force. He told me that he was going to remove my firearm and put it in his trunk while he asked me some questions. I said, "With all due respect, I'd rather retain my property, thank you." His reply was, "You can 'rather' all you want, but I'm taking this until we get this all settled and worked out." Not knowing whether the law was on my side past this point, I conceded. Eventually, my revolver was handed back to me, separate from my ammunition, and I was told "not to reload until you're at least about a block from here."

    I stealthily recorded the entire exchange (paranoid as I am from O.C. harassment in the past ~_^). Does an officer in this situation have higher authority than usual, due to the volatile nature of the situation? I realize that this isn't just a few questions while I was minding my own business, but rather an active interference in a conflict. I realize that he doesn't know who I am, my involvement to anyone present, or my intentions, and I don't wish to make his job difficult. However, at the same time, I don't wish to compromise my own rights, and so I'd like to know if anyone knows what their protocol is, in this case.

  2. #2
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    Since you admitted to being there just in case (I know these were not your words. ) He probably has RAS that you may have been involved. Once the witness clarified that you were not an actor in the brawl, you were given your firearm back along with the unlawful order to not rearm.

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    Last edited by JoeSparky; 10-25-2011 at 05:58 AM.
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  3. #3
    mattwestm
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    This is why it's always better to walk the other way unless someone's life is in danger. You put yourself in a situation that could have gotten a lot worse. The officer took your gun because he didn't know whether you were involved in the fight or not.

    Would you have gotten involved if you were unarmed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattwestm View Post
    This is why it's always better to walk the other way unless someone's life is in danger. You put yourself in a situation that could have gotten a lot worse. The officer took your gun because he didn't know whether you were involved in the fight or not.

    Would you have gotten involved if you were unarmed?
    I like to think that I would have. I like to think that if a deadly weapon had been part of the equation, that I couldn't bear knowing that there might have been anything I could have done about it, but did not. Of course, I didn't need to think down that path at the time, because I was afforded the additional confidence which comes with having a .357 within arm's reach. If the trial fire ever got hot enough, I suppose we'd see. May that day never come, and may reason prevail, I can only hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Since you admitted to being there just in case (I know these were not your words. ) He probably has RAS that you may have been involved. Once the witness clarified that you were not an actor in the brawl, you were given your firearm back along with the unlawful order to not rearm.

    Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
    Precisely. I decided to insert myself into the equation, "Just in case." Two guys were brawling, and I'd forgotten to mention that a few girls were beating on another girl, and also that the girl/guy fight crossed over into each other a couple of times. Groups were forming on the outskirts (people addicted to pandemonium), and the usual 'mob mentality' was in its incipient stages. I stayed focused on the men, because they tend to be the most combustible (not that I needed to tell you that).

    I guess you're right. I would place myself under potential suspicion the moment I was interacting with them (guilty by association, so far as the police pulling up are concerned). At least now, I have something to reflect on for future reference. I'll keep doing my research, as well. Thanks.

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    "Gee, sorry, Officer Friendly, but I have this little rule that goes like this -
    Unless I'm under arrest or being detained then I'm going to be at least as well armed as anyone I'm having a voluntary encounter with.
    Now, since I believe in letting people have as much authority as they can handle, I'll let you make the decision:
    Do I get my firearm back and continue on my merry way, or
    Do I get my firearm back and we continue to have a conversation?"

    If Officer Friendly is disinclined to treat me as an innocent citizen, then I'm disinclined to speak with him on the subject. I'll either speak with someone else, or not at all.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-25-2011 at 10:58 AM.

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    I'm a bit concerned with your course of action. You inserted yourself into a brawl that you didn't see how it started, you had no idea about who was the original aggressor or who defended themselves and I'm especially concerned by this part of your story:
    Quote Originally Posted by Doubting Thomas View Post
    In the event that anyone involved had a weapon,
    Let's say one of them pulls out a gun and you draw and shoot. What if it turns out the person who drew initially was a victim of the assault and decided to finally draw a weapon to fend of multiple attackers?

    Or say the fight escalates and a mob of aggressors form, one of them notices you and gets his friends to try and jump you and take away your weapon which now forces you to draw upon several people that otherwise wouldn't need to be drawn upon?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    I'm a bit concerned with your course of action.
    Agreed 100%. Then complained when a PO relieves you of your weapon???

  9. #9
    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    The BS catch-all "Officer safety" would apply. You were material to the incident and he wanted to question you. His removal of your firearm was lawful, so long as it was returned to you after the incident was cleared. You involved yourself in the incident--rightly or wrongly, so have to expect something like this--or worse, was going to happen.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubting Thomas View Post
    Precisely. I decided to insert myself into the equation, "Just in case."
    Pardon my bluntness, but anyone who does this is a moron and is just asking for trouble. Glad you didn't get put into 'the system' as a result of your foolishness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    Let's say one of them pulls out a gun and you draw and shoot. What if it turns out the person who drew initially was a victim of the assault and decided to finally draw a weapon to fend of multiple attackers?

    Or say the fight escalates and a mob of aggressors form, one of them notices you and gets his friends to try and jump you and take away your weapon which now forces you to draw upon several people that otherwise wouldn't need to be drawn upon?
    To the best of my knowledge, if I am armed, and 10 unarmed men decide to assault me with fists, I am not allowed even to draw my weapon by law, because no one has escalated deadly force. From what I gather from when I took my concealed carry course (still waiting on the paperwork), if someone were hitting me bare-handed, it is my obligation to flee, for the purposes of weapon retention. Until an aggressor drew a deadly weapon, a defendant who draws his own in anticipation (the person you describe above) has legally just made themselves the aggressor. ~_^

    Regarding the idea of people trying to take away my revolver, I carry a mini-Maglite on my belt as well, which doubles handily as a melee weapon. If they have only fists, I'm not sure they want to be jabbed in any sensitive areas with it.

    I was seated across the street and saw the fight formulate. I don't know who said what to who, but I know it began solely with words. When multiple people begin flailing on a woman, which in turn spurs a separate fight, I couldn't imagine learning later that an unarmed person was stabbed/shot by a person who escalated deadly force, if I could have done anything to mitigate that. At any rate, and everyone's constructive criticism is welcome regardless, the topic at hand was not "Were my actions the best course of actions," but rather, "Are my carry rights compromised by intervening?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Pardon my bluntness, but anyone who does this is a moron and is just asking for trouble...
    I suppose I should have made it clear that, while I like to avoid personal complications, that my potentially getting "into trouble" is something I value less than helping someone who is "already in" trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Pardon my bluntness, but anyone who does this is a moron and is just asking for trouble. Glad you didn't get put into 'the system' as a result of your foolishness.
    Not sorry for my bluntness, but the smiley at the end of your quote is patronizing at best, so I deleted it. How about some professional open carry tact instead of a "moronic" post. Don't mean to flame, but the OP is asking an honest question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doubting Thomas View Post
    When multiple people begin flailing on a woman, which in turn spurs a separate fight, I couldn't imagine learning later that an unarmed person was stabbed/shot by a person who escalated deadly force, if I could have done anything to mitigate that. At any rate, and everyone's constructive criticism is welcome regardless, the topic at hand was not "Were my actions the best course of actions," but rather, "Are my carry rights compromised by intervening?"
    IMHO, the OP was justified in his actions, the LEO's did what they thought was right, and the OP went home.

    When men begin flailing on a woman, IMHO, the "Duty to retreat" law becomes ambiguous. "Women" are in a totally different category when it comes to self-defense/fear for life. Multiple men beating on a women, IMHO, would fall into that category and would be defensible in a court of law if a good samaritan came to her aid.

    I, myself, would not stand by and watch a woman being beaten, whether she deserved it or not, nor whether I was armed or not. [thanks mattwestm for asking]
    Last edited by razor_baghdad; 10-25-2011 at 06:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubting Thomas View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, if I am armed, and 10 unarmed men decide to assault me with fists, I am not allowed even to draw my weapon by law, because no one has escalated deadly force. From what I gather from when I took my concealed carry course (still waiting on the paperwork), if someone were hitting me bare-handed, it is my obligation to flee, for the purposes of weapon retention. Until an aggressor drew a deadly weapon, a defendant who draws his own in anticipation (the person you describe above) has legally just made themselves the aggressor. ~_^
    I'm not sure you got that right:



    Quote Originally Posted by Doubting Thomas View Post
    Regarding the idea of people trying to take away my revolver, I carry a mini-Maglite on my belt as well, which doubles handily as a melee weapon. If they have only fists, I'm not sure they want to be jabbed in any sensitive areas with it.

    I was seated across the street and saw the fight formulate. I don't know who said what to who, but I know it began solely with words. When multiple people begin flailing on a woman, which in turn spurs a separate fight, I couldn't imagine learning later that an unarmed person was stabbed/shot by a person who escalated deadly force, if I could have done anything to mitigate that. At any rate, and everyone's constructive criticism is welcome regardless, the topic at hand was not "Were my actions the best course of actions," but rather, "Are my carry rights compromised by intervening?"
    Of course you have the right to your opinion but again it might not be the most appropriate one:



    p.s.: I'm not in anyway shape or form capable to give a reputable legal opinion or advice, I'm just trying to figure it out myself by looking into what reputable people say on the matter and while I was at it I wanted to share their advice with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubting Thomas View Post
    I am an open-carry advocate in North Carolina. I was downtown with my girlfriend, and a brawl broke out across the street at the bar. In the event that anyone involved had a weapon, I walked over with my revolver secured openly on my hip, where it remained as I tried to sense-talk and mediate. When police arrived, the men who were fighting were led off to the side for questioning, but an officer noticed my revolver and asked what my involvement was. I informed him that I was a sober bystander who knew no one involved in the fight, and merely wished to do my civic duty in the event of an escalation of force. He told me that he was going to remove my firearm and put it in his trunk while he asked me some questions. I said, "With all due respect, I'd rather retain my property, thank you." His reply was, "You can 'rather' all you want, but I'm taking this until we get this all settled and worked out." Not knowing whether the law was on my side past this point, I conceded. Eventually, my revolver was handed back to me, separate from my ammunition, and I was told "not to reload until you're at least about a block from here."

    I stealthily recorded the entire exchange (paranoid as I am from O.C. harassment in the past ~_^). Does an officer in this situation have higher authority than usual, due to the volatile nature of the situation? I realize that this isn't just a few questions while I was minding my own business, but rather an active interference in a conflict. I realize that he doesn't know who I am, my involvement to anyone present, or my intentions, and I don't wish to make his job difficult. However, at the same time, I don't wish to compromise my own rights, and so I'd like to know if anyone knows what their protocol is, in this case.

    It is my suggestion that you unload your weapon and lock it in a safe and that you do not open that safe until you grow up.

    Inserting yourself into a situation where you have no idea how it began nor where it will end is totally immature.

    Settling bar fights is not the purpose of a CCW. Settling bar fights that are happening across the street .....

  16. #16
    Regular Member CDT COX's Avatar
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    You are NOT a cop. Your weapon is for self-DEFENSE, not walking across the street to a fight to be the badass that breaks it up.

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    Regular Member ArmySoldier22's Avatar
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    In my opinion, if it was just a couple guys going at each other, let them be. Idiots will be idiots. If it was a group of people just beating on each other, let it be.

    From what I understand, there was a woman being beaten on by multiple people. This is not ok, and if this was the OPs reason for intervening, then I completely agree with it. Whether I'm carrying or not, if I see a woman being hit by a man, I'm stepping in. Take that as you will.


    David
    Last edited by ArmySoldier22; 10-25-2011 at 08:06 PM.

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    Regular Member Polynikes's Avatar
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    OP, your duty was to observe and be a good witness. Stand across the street and call the authorities. The responsibility of carrying a weapon means that you should be loathe to place yourself in any situation that might require you to use it. Had you done the above, you likely would not have been disarmed and we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    You inserted yourself in a street brawl involving drunk bar-patrons you had no connection with.

    You, sir, are a cowboy, ignorant of the law in NC, and a danger to yourself, others, and the entire gun-rights movement in NC and the USA.

    I'm actually a little dismayed that you got your gun back. Some people just shouldn't carry--and your story appears to be evidence that you might very well be in that group...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-25-2011 at 11:30 PM.
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    I was going to add my two cents but after reading all of the post im sure you get the point by now.
    And I'm sure I will get some @&!* for this but really why is it such an issue that if your at a place where a LEO shows up to do an investigation takes your weapon until he knows what's going on. Put yourself in his shoes. Would you want someone at the scene with a weapon and you don't know their part or how they fit in with a weapon. I have had this done before and am ok with it. It's not like they are going to keep it forever. But it is only my opinion.
    Last edited by Carry24/7; 10-25-2011 at 09:04 PM.
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    The first rule of Murphy's Laws Of Combat is "You are not Superman". Nor Chuck Norris, Bruce Lee, etc..

    To OP: I hope you get what I am saying. I do not know you as a person, so therefore I can/will not judge you, that is God's job. I will say that your actions were very much inappropriate. The very fact that the anti-gun people in Raleigh see things such as this, is just another step in the wrong direction. They are out there watching and listening for the very thing you chose to involve yourself in. If you want to be a hero to your girlfriend, just take her by the arm and tell her it is time to go someplace else before the SHTF, and you want her to be safe. I live by simple rules. One of those rules is this, "If you are not sure you will get the answer you want, don't ask the question." You ask for opinions and thoughts, to which you got a more than ample amount of. Please do yourself a favor before you venture out into public again, and reevaluate your mindset on why you want to carry a firearm.

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    I appreciate the select few people who contributed what they could to my knowledge of the legal aspect of my questions.

    Having said that, the rest of us do not see eye to eye.

    My girlfriend stayed across the street and called the police while I rushed over. I did not do this to seem tough, or to "be a cowboy." I never once touched or even mentioned my firearm, and I employed nothing but psychology to disarm the situation until the officers arrived. A couple of you seem to think that a firearm is solely for the sake of protection your own ass, and as many cliché arguments I've heard from open carry advocates, i.e., "I carry a gun because cops are too heavy," "the only good in calling the police is to come and pick up the bodies," et cetera, it looks like people would rather stand by and watch others be brutalized (or potentially worse) rather than to actually have the mindset that with great power comes great responsibility. The reason the cliché exists that "the only good in calling the police is to come and pick up the bodies" is because by the time they get there, it might be too late. Admonish me all you will for walking over and (successfully, I might add) negating/stalling the situation until the arrival of the L.E.O.s, but I decry your very self-centered view of the world you live in, and your duties to your fellow beings. Aside from that, I did what I thought was best, the police did what they thought was best, and once the dust had settled, all went back to normal again.

    Well, for myself, at least. The guy who got beaten the worst came back 20 minutes later, puffing his shirtless chest out and hollering obscenities. When he got his ass beat a second time, I went home (police all pulled in moments later). If someone is retarded enough to come back for seconds, they don't get my saving grace again.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazek View Post
    p.s.: I'm not in anyway shape or form capable to give a reputable legal opinion or advice, I'm just trying to figure it out myself by looking into what reputable people say on the matter and while I was at it I wanted to share their advice with you.
    I appreciate it, and I found the videos insightful, although I was aware a.) If I can flee before employing deadly force, I am obligated to, and b.) I am not to even draw the weapon until I am fearful for my life and limb, or the life and limb of an individual who I care about (which I extend to strangers).

    I realize that anyone coming into a confrontation after it has initiated is unaware of all factors involved, and must be cautious.

    Let's say that a man is minding his own business. Another man comes out of nowhere, shoves him in the chest, and calls his girlfriend a fat *****. Now, the man who was shoved exchanges blows with the aggressor, and then draws a knife on him. The man who was initially the aggressor is unarmed. Is the person who was initially the defender now the aggressor, so far as legal judgement is concerned? The unarmed man, though belligerent, is of no deadly threat (both of equal physical ability, for the sake of this analogy).

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubting Thomas View Post
    I appreciate it, and I found the videos insightful, although I was aware a.) If I can flee before employing deadly force, I am obligated to, and b.) I am not to even draw the weapon until I am fearful for my life and limb, or the life and limb of an individual who I care about (which I extend to strangers).

    I realize that anyone coming into a confrontation after it has initiated is unaware of all factors involved, and must be cautious.

    Let's say that a man is minding his own business. Another man comes out of nowhere, shoves him in the chest, and calls his girlfriend a fat *****. Now, the man who was shoved exchanges blows with the aggressor, and then draws a knife on him. The man who was initially the aggressor is unarmed. Is the person who was initially the defender now the aggressor, so far as legal judgement is concerned? The unarmed man, though belligerent, is of no deadly threat (both of equal physical ability, for the sake of this analogy).
    From a legal point, I'm not a lawyer and can't say. But my person opinion is this. Being that it was just a shove, the defender should just walk away. Not doing so, in my viewpoint, would turn him into the agressor. However, if the aggressor was to hit the defender, any punches thrown back would be in self defense since he was in no way an antagonist in the situation. As far as drawing a knife, a simple fist fight is no reason to if you're talking about 2 people of equal physical level. Either one pulling a weapon at this point would be in the wrong and in my viewpoint, turn into the agressor. There are a lot of what ifs that can be asked, and it's been done many times on this site. To be honest, you could create an entire forum about what-if situations like this "and there may be one". My training taught me that there is no such thing as a fair fight. You're in it to make sure the other guy can't hurt you back anymore. If you're in a fight with a guy twice your size that you believe can cause you serious bodily harm, if not death, then you fight back with every possible resource you can. Things in the civilian world aren't so clear cut, and it's a huge legal mess.


    I may get some negative responses to this next part, but I don't really care. The fact is, I'm going to do what I morally believe is right, even if that means dealing with the consequences of the law afterwards. Because a lot of times, the law isn't right for every situation. If I see two people in a fight that I don't know, even if somebody's pulling a knife, I'm not going to step in. Because I don't know what happened to cause the situation to escalate to this point. If I see a group of people fighting and I don't know what caused it, I'm not going to step in. However, I will call the police ASAP for both of those situations. If I see one man, or a group of people hitting a woman and beating her, I'm going to step in regardless of the cause "HOWEVER, at no point will I ever use my firearm or even mention at it"

    Those are the actions that my moral values dictate I go with. Take it for what you will


    David
    Last edited by ArmySoldier22; 10-26-2011 at 01:06 AM.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doubting Thomas View Post
    A couple of you seem to think that a firearm is solely for the sake of protection your own ass, and as many cliché arguments I've heard from open carry advocates, i.e., "I carry a gun because cops are too heavy," "the only good in calling the police is to come and pick up the bodies," et cetera, it looks like people would rather stand by and watch others be brutalized (or potentially worse) rather than to actually have the mindset that with great power comes great responsibility.
    "Saving your own ass" or the ass of your loved one is the sole reason you carry. You do not know the situation. It could be an off duty or undercover cop fighting with someone, it could end up that the combatants come after you, it could be they get your firearm away from you, and a dozen other not-so-nice outcomes. Your JOB is to be a good witness, call 911 and stand by. I'd say it's not just a 'couple of us' that believe the firearm is for self-defense in the GRAVEST EXTREME, it's a majority.

    Perhaps you felt it was within your capabilities to defuse, so be it. But you undoubtedly went and inserted yourself BECAUSE you knew you had a firearm and (you figured) could pull it if things went ballistic. This is a bad move and I hope you learn from this. You say you aren't worried about 'getting into trouble' but that's because you haven't (yet) been raped by the system.

    I hope you will take a step back and reconsider your actions and options in the future.
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