Can my firearm be removed in this scenario?

Bearfoot · Oct 25, 2011

The first rule of Murphy's Laws Of Combat is "You are not Superman". Nor Chuck Norris, Bruce Lee, etc..

To OP: I hope you get what I am saying. I do not know you as a person, so therefore I can/will not judge you, that is God's job. I will say that your actions were very much inappropriate. The very fact that the anti-gun people in Raleigh see things such as this, is just another step in the wrong direction. They are out there watching and listening for the very thing you chose to involve yourself in. If you want to be a hero to your girlfriend, just take her by the arm and tell her it is time to go someplace else before the SHTF, and you want her to be safe. I live by simple rules. One of those rules is this, "If you are not sure you will get the answer you want, don't ask the question." You ask for opinions and thoughts, to which you got a more than ample amount of. Please do yourself a favor before you venture out into public again, and reevaluate your mindset on why you want to carry a firearm.

Doubting Thomas · Oct 25, 2011

I appreciate the select few people who contributed what they could to my knowledge of the legal aspect of my questions.

Having said that, the rest of us do not see eye to eye.

My girlfriend stayed across the street and called the police while I rushed over. I did not do this to seem tough, or to "be a cowboy." I never once touched or even mentioned my firearm, and I employed nothing but psychology to disarm the situation until the officers arrived. A couple of you seem to think that a firearm is solely for the sake of protection your own ass, and as many cliché arguments I've heard from open carry advocates, i.e., "I carry a gun because cops are too heavy," "the only good in calling the police is to come and pick up the bodies," et cetera, it looks like people would rather stand by and watch others be brutalized (or potentially worse) rather than to actually have the mindset that with great power comes great responsibility. The reason the cliché exists that "the only good in calling the police is to come and pick up the bodies" is because by the time they get there, it might be too late. Admonish me all you will for walking over and (successfully, I might add) negating/stalling the situation until the arrival of the L.E.O.s, but I decry your very self-centered view of the world you live in, and your duties to your fellow beings. Aside from that, I did what I thought was best, the police did what they thought was best, and once the dust had settled, all went back to normal again.

Well, for myself, at least. The guy who got beaten the worst came back 20 minutes later, puffing his shirtless chest out and hollering obscenities. When he got his ass beat a second time, I went home (police all pulled in moments later). If someone is retarded enough to come back for seconds, they don't get my saving grace again.

Doubting Thomas · Oct 26, 2011

hazek said:
p.s.: I'm not in anyway shape or form capable to give a reputable legal opinion or advice, I'm just trying to figure it out myself by looking into what reputable people say on the matter and while I was at it I wanted to share their advice with you.

I appreciate it, and I found the videos insightful, although I was aware a.) If I can flee before employing deadly force, I am obligated to, and b.) I am not to even draw the weapon until I am fearful for my life and limb, or the life and limb of an individual who I care about (which I extend to strangers).

I realize that anyone coming into a confrontation after it has initiated is unaware of all factors involved, and must be cautious.

Let's say that a man is minding his own business. Another man comes out of nowhere, shoves him in the chest, and calls his girlfriend a fat whore. Now, the man who was shoved exchanges blows with the aggressor, and then draws a knife on him. The man who was initially the aggressor is unarmed. Is the person who was initially the defender now the aggressor, so far as legal judgement is concerned? The unarmed man, though belligerent, is of no deadly threat (both of equal physical ability, for the sake of this analogy).

ArmySoldier22 · Oct 26, 2011

Doubting Thomas said:
I appreciate it, and I found the videos insightful, although I was aware a.) If I can flee before employing deadly force, I am obligated to, and b.) I am not to even draw the weapon until I am fearful for my life and limb, or the life and limb of an individual who I care about (which I extend to strangers).

I realize that anyone coming into a confrontation after it has initiated is unaware of all factors involved, and must be cautious.

Let's say that a man is minding his own business. Another man comes out of nowhere, shoves him in the chest, and calls his girlfriend a fat whore. Now, the man who was shoved exchanges blows with the aggressor, and then draws a knife on him. The man who was initially the aggressor is unarmed. Is the person who was initially the defender now the aggressor, so far as legal judgement is concerned? The unarmed man, though belligerent, is of no deadly threat (both of equal physical ability, for the sake of this analogy).

From a legal point, I'm not a lawyer and can't say. But my person opinion is this. Being that it was just a shove, the defender should just walk away. Not doing so, in my viewpoint, would turn him into the agressor. However, if the aggressor was to hit the defender, any punches thrown back would be in self defense since he was in no way an antagonist in the situation. As far as drawing a knife, a simple fist fight is no reason to if you're talking about 2 people of equal physical level. Either one pulling a weapon at this point would be in the wrong and in my viewpoint, turn into the agressor. There are a lot of what ifs that can be asked, and it's been done many times on this site. To be honest, you could create an entire forum about what-if situations like this "and there may be one". My training taught me that there is no such thing as a fair fight. You're in it to make sure the other guy can't hurt you back anymore. If you're in a fight with a guy twice your size that you believe can cause you serious bodily harm, if not death, then you fight back with every possible resource you can. Things in the civilian world aren't so clear cut, and it's a huge legal mess.

I may get some negative responses to this next part, but I don't really care. The fact is, I'm going to do what I morally believe is right, even if that means dealing with the consequences of the law afterwards. Because a lot of times, the law isn't right for every situation. If I see two people in a fight that I don't know, even if somebody's pulling a knife, I'm not going to step in. Because I don't know what happened to cause the situation to escalate to this point. If I see a group of people fighting and I don't know what caused it, I'm not going to step in. However, I will call the police ASAP for both of those situations. If I see one man, or a group of people hitting a woman and beating her, I'm going to step in regardless of the cause "HOWEVER, at no point will I ever use my firearm or even mention at it"

Those are the actions that my moral values dictate I go with. Take it for what you will

David

Badger Johnson · Oct 26, 2011

Doubting Thomas said:
A couple of you seem to think that a firearm is solely for the sake of protection your own ass, and as many cliché arguments I've heard from open carry advocates, i.e., "I carry a gun because cops are too heavy," "the only good in calling the police is to come and pick up the bodies," et cetera, it looks like people would rather stand by and watch others be brutalized (or potentially worse) rather than to actually have the mindset that with great power comes great responsibility.

"Saving your own ass" or the ass of your loved one is the sole reason you carry. You do not know the situation. It could be an off duty or undercover cop fighting with someone, it could end up that the combatants come after you, it could be they get your firearm away from you, and a dozen other not-so-nice outcomes. Your JOB is to be a good witness, call 911 and stand by. I'd say it's not just a 'couple of us' that believe the firearm is for self-defense in the GRAVEST EXTREME, it's a majority.

Perhaps you felt it was within your capabilities to defuse, so be it. But you undoubtedly went and inserted yourself BECAUSE you knew you had a firearm and (you figured) could pull it if things went ballistic. This is a bad move and I hope you learn from this. You say you aren't worried about 'getting into trouble' but that's because you haven't (yet) been raped by the system.

I hope you will take a step back and reconsider your actions and options in the future.

RetiredOC · Oct 26, 2011

So, let me get this straight, I'm going to summarize the scenario here...

OP is walking down the street, visibly armed.

Sees a bar fight ON THE OTHER SIDE of the street that has absolutely nothing to do with him.

OP goes out of his way to place himself into a situation with a few people that are engaged in fighting.

OP feels this is a smart and justified move.

OP represents hundreds if not thousands of open carriers and gun owners in general through his actions while open carrying.

Hmmmm. Why why why why why why would you do that? Bar fights happen all the time. It's a location where a bunch of people get together and drink and on some occassions get out of control. Why do you feel that is your business from the other side of the street? Don't give me that "TO HELP MY FELLOW MAN I CARE ABOUT PEOPLE" crap, this isn't a college student getting jumped by a gang while walking across a campus, this is a bar where people put themselves into the situation they are in. When you go to a bar you know they're going to be drunk a-holes there. So you saw a bunch of people that put themselves into a situation and when it escalated you jumped in while open carrying. Not that I think open carrying should have much to do with it, I think it was a stupid idea to jump in anyway, but you introduced a firearm into a bar fight full of hostile drunks. What if they all turned on you and removed your firearm instead of that cop? They're all drunk. Think about it. Drunk people are capable of poor decision making.

And where do you get the idea that 10 unarmed men beating you down is not justified force aka fear for ones life or serious injury? I think 2 or even 1 man could justify deadly force situation pending.

Now, to the main topic at hand. A cop responds to a bar fight. He knows there are hostile people who are intoxicated. Now because you threw yourself into a situation with your gun that you had no business being in the cop thinks you're probably intoxicated as well and involved in a fight. He desides, hmmm, I'm going to ask this guy some questions, because I am responding to a bunch of drunk hostile people I should cover my ass. From the information he was probably given from dispatch, he probably had reason to believe you were drunk and hostile. This was probably a good stop.

Deleted my own personal attack here -let me just say, from what you described here, this was incredibly stupid and you were a horrible ambassador gun owners by putting yourself into this situation. please learn from this. Now go, and sin no more.

old curmudgeon · Oct 26, 2011

Schlitz said:
So, let me get this straight, I'm going to summarize the scenario here...

OP is walking down the street, visibly armed.

Sees a bar fight ON THE OTHER SIDE of the street that has absolutely nothing to do with him.

OP goes out of his way to place himself into a situation with a few people that are engaged in fighting.

OP feels this is a smart and justified move.

OP represents hundreds if not thousands of open carriers and gun owners in general through his actions while open carrying.

Hmmmm. Why why why why why why would you do that? Bar fights happen all the time. It's a location where a bunch of people get together and drink and on some occassions get out of control. Why do you feel that is your business from the other side of the street? Don't give me that "TO HELP MY FELLOW MAN I CARE ABOUT PEOPLE" crap, this isn't a college student getting jumped by a gang while walking across a campus, this is a bar where people put themselves into the situation they are in. When you go to a bar you know they're going to be drunk a-holes there. So you saw a bunch of people that put themselves into a situation and when it escalated you jumped in while open carrying. Not that I think open carrying should have much to do with it, I think it was a stupid idea to jump in anyway, but you introduced a firearm into a bar fight full of hostile drunks. What if they all turned on you and removed your firearm instead of that cop? They're all drunk. Think about it. Drunk people are capable of poor decision making.

And where do you get the idea that 10 unarmed men beating you down is not justified force aka fear for ones life or serious injury? I think 2 or even 1 man could justify deadly force situation pending.

Now, to the main topic at hand. A cop responds to a bar fight. He knows there are hostile people who are intoxicated. Now because you threw yourself into a situation with your gun that you had no business being in the cop thinks you're probably intoxicated as well and involved in a fight. He desides, hmmm, I'm going to ask this guy some questions, because I am responding to a bunch of drunk hostile people I should cover my ass. From the information he was probably given from dispatch, he probably had reason to believe you were drunk and hostile. This was probably a good stop.

Deleted my own personal attack here -let me just say, from what you described here, this was incredibly stupid and you were a horrible ambassador gun owners by putting yourself into this situation. please learn from this. Now go, and sin no more.

A very good post, but you left out one important point.

There are lots of people who go to bars looking for a fight. Whether it is to cause a fight or just to see one is a moot point.

There are bars in this town where fights break out almost every night.

Crossing the street, armed, to get involved with people like that is not bright.

As for the woman, there are women who love fights, who scream "kill him" at the top of their lungs.

I wonder if all of the heroes posting here wear their Captain Courageous suit under their street clothes or whether they change in the phone booth like Clark Kent.

NCBobD · Oct 26, 2011

schlitz said:
deleted my own personal attack here -let me just say, from what you described here, this was incredibly stupid and you were a horrible ambassador gun owners by putting yourself into this situation. Please learn from this. Now go, and sin no more.

this.

razor_baghdad · Oct 26, 2011

old curmudgeon said:
As for the woman, there are women who love fights, who scream "kill him" at the top of their lungs.

How about the women getting their asses beat by several drunks outside the bar and you stand by, watching, wishing you were somewhere else, wringing your hands. We weren't there so we can't comment on the "What if"?

old curmudgeon said:
I wonder if all of the heroes posting here wear their Captain Courageous suit under their street clothes or whether they change in the phone booth like Clark Kent.

Pretty sure this was directed at me.......but how about those that go hide under the car like you and plead "Please don't hurt me". I'm no Cpt C, but I won't stand by and watch a woman get her ass kicked by a bunch of guys. Apparently you would O.C., so go be an old curmudgeon but don't knock we who stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves.

2₵

hazek · Oct 26, 2011

razor_baghdad said:
Pretty sure this was directed at me.......but how about those that go hide under the car like you and plead "Please don't hurt me". I'm no Cpt C, but I won't stand by and watch a woman get her ass kicked by a bunch of guys. Apparently you would O.C., so go be an old curmudgeon but don't knock we who stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves.

2₵

I wonder what would happen if you walked in at the 38th second of the below video:

[video=youtube;RvSrg6ytjVo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvSrg6ytjVo[/video]

ArmySoldier22 · Oct 26, 2011

hazek said:
I wonder what would happen if you walked in at the 38th second of the below video:

[video=youtube;RvSrg6ytjVo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvSrg6ytjVo[/video]

Most likely nothing, she's behind the counter and an employee is hitting her. Kinda seems straightforward

old curmudgeon · Oct 26, 2011

razor_baghdad said:
How about the women getting their asses beat by several drunks outside the bar and you stand by, watching, wishing you were somewhere else, wringing your hands. We weren't there so we can't comment on the "What if"?

Pretty sure this was directed at me.......but how about those that go hide under the car like you and plead "Please don't hurt me". I'm no Cpt C, but I won't stand by and watch a woman get her ass kicked by a bunch of guys. Apparently you would O.C., so go be an old curmudgeon but don't knock we who stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves.

2₵

Well Captain, before you rescue yon damsel in distress, you had better read up on NC law.

What would happen is that first you will get your ass beat. About the time you are spitting your front teeth out on the side walk, you will draw.

And the court will take the position that you went looking for a fight and that you escalated the situation.

Because you don't wear a badge, you are by law not allowed to intervene.

The exception to that would be if one of the fighters was down and was getting kicked in the head or stomped to the point that he/she was near death.

Just a fight....not a matter of life and death.

chiefjason · Oct 27, 2011

I would also suggest reviewing the part of your CCH class that dealt with self defense of a 3rd party. If the party you defend ends up being the one that started the fight, you are in for some serious problems. I don't particularly like NC's take on this, but you need to know and understand it. YOU are responsible for knowing who the players are, YOU are responsible for knowing who initiated the problem, and YOU are responsible for knowing if the person you are helping is legally able to defend themselves in that situation. If you don't know all that, you might find yourself on the wrong side of the law. If I was not there from the beginning to know all that, I may seriously limit my involvement. Because at the end of the day, I still have to be able to provide for my family. And I can't do that from a cell.

Sounds like stupid people, in stupid places, doing stupid things and most of it was probably driven by alcohol. Sounds exactly like a situation I prefer to avoid. I'm not in college anymore, I stay away from these now.

As much as I don't like LE disarming folks, you will probably not find anyone in the legal system that would fault him for doing it. Heck, I don't fault him for doing it. For all he knew it was a bar fight and you were involved. You got it back, and got sent on your way and did not get too tangled up in things. Count yourself lucky on this one.

RetiredOC · Oct 27, 2011

razor_baghdad said:
How about the women getting their asses beat by several drunks outside the bar and you stand by, watching, wishing you were somewhere else, wringing your hands. We weren't there so we can't comment on the "What if"?

You're going to make up scenarios now instead of dicussing the one at hand? If a woman is getting her ass beat because she chose to take part in a bar fight - why is that your business?

Pretty sure this was directed at me.......but how about those that go hide under the car like you and plead "Please don't hurt me". I'm no Cpt C, but I won't stand by and watch a woman get her ass kicked by a bunch of guys. Apparently you would O.C., so go be an old curmudgeon but don't knock we who stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves.

2₵

pfffffffffff lololololololol don't go to a bar and participate in a bar fight if you can't hold your own. how about that? don't like getting into fights? go drink at applebees or something. go drink at home. go drink away from tons of other drunks.

Oh yea, I don't care if you're a woman or not. In case you didn't know, woman think they have special rights to punch, hit, slap, knee in the groin men with no repercussions. that woman you see getting beat up may have just assaulted someone with her special woman rights she thinks she has.

"stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves." oh please, if you're in a state that allows you to carry a gun than most likely that person who "can't stand up for themselves" has made the concious decision not to carry a gun to stand up for themselves. stop acting like you're some super hero.
and before you say "OH BUT SCHLITZ THEY ARE DRUNK AND SHOULDN'T BE CARRYING WHEN THEY ARE DRUNK"

Not my chair, not my problem, that's what I always say.

Oh, and I love how you make NOT getting involved in other people's business the equal to hiding under a car saying "please don't hurt me." Keep in mind, a person getting jumped by a gang for walking down the street is COMPLETELY different than a stupid bar fight that happens all the time. the OP said this was a bar fight. not the first option.

carsontech · Oct 27, 2011

In for the comedic relief. Schlitz style. :lol:

old curmudgeon · Oct 27, 2011

chiefjason said:
I would also suggest reviewing the part of your CCH class that dealt with self defense of a 3rd party. If the party you defend ends up being the one that started the fight, you are in for some serious problems. I don't particularly like NC's take on this, but you need to know and understand it. YOU are responsible for knowing who the players are, YOU are responsible for knowing who initiated the problem, and YOU are responsible for knowing if the person you are helping is legally able to defend themselves in that situation. If you don't know all that, you might find yourself on the wrong side of the law. If I was not there from the beginning to know all that, I may seriously limit my involvement. Because at the end of the day, I still have to be able to provide for my family. And I can't do that from a cell.

Sounds like stupid people, in stupid places, doing stupid things and most of it was probably driven by alcohol. Sounds exactly like a situation I prefer to avoid. I'm not in college anymore, I stay away from these now.

As much as I don't like LE disarming folks, you will probably not find anyone in the legal system that would fault him for doing it. Heck, I don't fault him for doing it. For all he knew it was a bar fight and you were involved. You got it back, and got sent on your way and did not get too tangled up in things. Count yourself lucky on this one.

An excellent post and a very important point.

I have one more question:

Even if the woman were the innocent person attacked by BGs and the BGs pulled knives because Captain Courageous was such an accomplished fighter with his bare hands that he was getting the best them...which in turn would result in Captain Courageous drawing; would not an ambitious prosecutor take the position that our hero was in this case the aggressor in that there was no interaction between him and the bad guys until he butted in?

In other words, until that point there was no danger to his life nor to the life of the woman.

Butting in someone elses business has a lot moe risks than getting a fat lip.

ArmySoldier22 · Oct 27, 2011

old curmudgeon said:
An excellent post and a very important point.

I have one more question:

Even if the woman were the innocent person attacked by BGs and the BGs pulled knives because Captain Courageous was such an accomplished fighter with his bare hands that he was getting the best them...which in turn would result in Captain Courageous drawing; would not an ambitious prosecutor take the position that our hero was in this case the aggressor in that there was no interaction between him and the bad guys until he butted in?

In other words, until that point there was no danger to his life nor to the life of the woman.

Butting in someone elses business has a lot moe risks than getting a fat lip.

I think you make a good point and there is a very real risk of being on the wrong side of the law with an over zealous prosecutor. In your situation, it's pretty much about what you could live with doing or not doing.. If it was me, and an innocent woman was being attacked by a group of people, I personally couldn't just stand there and do nothing. Armed or not. In that situation, it's hard to say that there's no threat to the life of the woman. A group of people beating up on Any one person can be a life threatening situation. And being in a situation like that is enough cause to draw a weapon. Being that she can't defend herself, you're able to. Dieing from injuries like that with internal bleeding is a Very real possibility, it happens. Some people are going to argue with my point and say that no matter what, there's no reason to butt in. I don't care, don't bother responding to me then. The fact is, everybody's different and everybody's going to react differently. Do what you think is right. If you can avoid breaking the law to do so, then that's great. Because none of us want our gun rights being set back. But there are some situations where you might have to react in ways that somebody in the legal system might not agree with later. And that doesn't just go with firearm or violence related issues.

The fact is, these What-if scenarios we keep playing over aren't helping anybody. They're just keeping a thread going that should've already died out. The OP made a choice that most of us wouldn't have but he believed was right, he's been bashed for it "Yes, i said bashed. Cause that's exactly what's happened", and it's time to move on to more pressing issues. Do I agree with his decision? No. But there are situations that have been brought up, that I don't agree with some of the others on here either.

David

old curmudgeon · Oct 27, 2011

ArmySoldier22 said:
I think you make a good point and there is a very real risk of being on the wrong side of the law with an over zealous prosecutor. In your situation, it's pretty much about what you could live with doing or not doing.. If it was me, and an innocent woman was being attacked by a group of people, I personally couldn't just stand there and do nothing. Armed or not. In that situation, it's hard to say that there's no threat to the life of the woman. A group of people beating up on Any one person can be a life threatening situation. And being in a situation like that is enough cause to draw a weapon. Being that she can't defend herself, you're able to. Dieing from injuries like that with internal bleeding is a Very real possibility, it happens. Some people are going to argue with my point and say that no matter what, there's no reason to butt in. I don't care, don't bother responding to me then. The fact is, everybody's different and everybody's going to react differently. Do what you think is right. If you can avoid breaking the law to do so, then that's great. Because none of us want our gun rights being set back. But there are some situations where you might have to react in ways that somebody in the legal system might not agree with later. And that doesn't just go with firearm or violence related issues.

The fact is, these What-if scenarios we keep playing over aren't helping anybody. They're just keeping a thread going that should've already died out. The OP made a choice that most of us wouldn't have but he believed was right, he's been bashed for it "Yes, i said bashed. Cause that's exactly what's happened", and it's time to move on to more pressing issues. Do I agree with his decision? No. But there are situations that have been brought up, that I don't agree with some of the others on here either.

David

The thread is not a waste for the reason that everyone reading it should be and probably is reviewing his understanding of the law and whether his original thoughts on jumping into a situation like this were correct or not.

Whether anyone changes his plans or not is not as important is that he understands what he could be getting into.

Smith45acp · Oct 27, 2011

Do you know, positively, what you would have done if one of them decided to start punching on you?

What if he tackled you to the ground and you felt your holster being pulled on?

These are questions I don't want to be faced with, so unless I have a "dog in the fight", I aint getting in there.

Most of these drunken bar fights all end the same way, clothes get torn, a nose or two bleeds a bit, and people get arrested. 99% of the time they're more entertaining than concerning to watch, IMO.

Regardless, I'm MUCH less inclined to become involved when carrying. Even if I don't lose my pistol to a rowdy drunk, it might get scratched up

Kind of on topic:

Back in college, where there were fights to be seen at parties/bars every weekend, I used to hate it when I would see some girl go charging in to intervene between a bunch of adrenaline and alcohol infused tough guys - only to catch an inadvertent elbow or otherwise be knocked on her butt. (I'm not calling you a girl!)

chiefjason · Oct 28, 2011

old curmudgeon said:
An excellent post and a very important point.

I have one more question:

Even if the woman were the innocent person attacked by BGs and the BGs pulled knives because Captain Courageous was such an accomplished fighter with his bare hands that he was getting the best them...which in turn would result in Captain Courageous drawing; would not an ambitious prosecutor take the position that our hero was in this case the aggressor in that there was no interaction between him and the bad guys until he butted in?

In other words, until that point there was no danger to his life nor to the life of the woman.

Butting in someone elses business has a lot moe risks than getting a fat lip.

First, anything is possible.

But if she was able to legally defend herself, then the intervention should be legal. The thugs escalate it to deadly force and that force is met with like deadly force. Technically, I would think it should work out. But refer to my first point before thinking it's a good idea.

I'm not against intervening if it's needed. I'm not too keen on becoming a criminal for it though. So I want to be sure that I know, that I know, that I know I'm on the right side of the issue. And unfortunately, that means calling in the cavalry and waiting if I am not sure.

Can my firearm be removed in this scenario?

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