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Thread: KMart Open Carry Policy

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    KMart Open Carry Policy

    I recently E Mailed KMart asking about their corporate policy regarding non licensed Open carry since Michigan law of course requires the permission of the "owner or the agent of the owner" when it's a store that sells liquor, and I thought you might be interested in the response, it looks like KMart does not have a problem with it.

    Dear Valued Customer,

    Thank you for your recent correspondence. We are always interested in
    hearing from our customers, and regret it was this type of situation
    that prompted you to contact us.

    Our corporate policy regarding customers who openly carry firearms on
    our store premises is that as long as the law of the state, in which our
    store is located, legally permits the open carrying of firearms (i.e.
    carrying a firearm on one's person in plain sight), customers will be
    permitted to openly carry firearms within our stores.

    By sharing your concerns, you have enabled us to provide feedback to the
    appropriate person. Truly, your remarks provide forthright feedback
    that will enable Sears to achieve excellence in everything we do.

    Once again, thank you for contacting us.


    Sincerely,
    Jennifer G.,
    Retail Customer Care
    Sears Holdings Corporation
    Last edited by Small_Arms_Collector; 10-25-2011 at 07:15 PM.

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    dont ask ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    I recently E Mailed KMart asking about their corporate policy regarding non licensed Open carry since Michigan law of course requires the permission of the "owner or the agent of the owner" when it's a store that sells liquor, and I thought you might be interested in the response, it looks like KMart does not have a problem with it.

    Dear Valued Customer,

    Thank you for your recent correspondence. We are always interested in
    hearing from our customers, and regret it was this type of situation
    that prompted you to contact us.

    Our corporate policy regarding customers who openly carry firearms on
    our store premises is that as long as the law of the state, in which our
    store is located, legally permits the open carrying of firearms (i.e.
    carrying a firearm on one's person in plain sight), customers will be
    permitted to openly carry firearms within our stores.

    By sharing your concerns, you have enabled us to provide feedback to the
    appropriate person. Truly, your remarks provide forthright feedback
    that will enable Sears to achieve excellence in everything we do.

    Once again, thank you for contacting us.


    Sincerely,
    Jennifer G.,
    Retail Customer Care
    Sears Holdings Corporation


    kind of great job

    i never ask a store if i can shop with all my rights. if i am asked to leave the store, they will never get another $ from me.. now with that being said. if i am asked to leave i will email there hq asking them there policy as you did.. Its good to no kmart supports 2a.. most stores do intill they get a complant from another shoper.
    Last edited by rvd4now; 10-25-2011 at 07:39 PM.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    kind of great job

    i never ask a store if i can shop with all my rights. if i am asked to leave the store, they will never get another $ from me.. now with that being said. if i am asked to leave i will email there hq asking them there policy as you did.. Its good to no kmart supports 2a.. most stores do intill they get a complant from another shoper.
    From the sound of it he does not have a CPL and since they have a liquor license he needs their permission to OC there.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    From the sound of it he does not have a CPL and since they have a liquor license he needs their permission to OC there.
    from what i understand the law to be is, he can not o/c at all with out a cpl at a place that has a liquor license.. correct me if i worng.

    op: even if you have a email from some random person at hq i still would not oc there with out a cpl.. becasue that current store manager may not agree with what someone at hq has said. all you need for them to do is place a call to 9-11. If they place a call and the police show up, im thinking you will be cited. "ianal"

    you dont want that call

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    From the sound of it he does not have a CPL and since they have a liquor license he needs their permission to OC there.
    Actually I do, but it will likely expire before I receive my renewal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    from what i understand the law to be is, he can not o/c at all with out a cpl at a place that has a liquor license.. correct me if i worng.

    op: even if you have a email from some random person at hq i still would not oc there with out a cpl.. becasue that current store manager may not agree with what someone at hq has said. all you need for them to do is place a call to 9-11. If they place a call and the police show up, im thinking you will be cited. "ianal"

    you dont want that call
    you can with owner/agent(manager) permission,ive got permission for a few places in the state.
    not a lawyer, dont take anything i say as legal advice.


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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    from what i understand the law to be is, he can not o/c at all with out a cpl at a place that has a liquor license.. correct me if i worng.

    op: even if you have a email from some random person at hq i still would not oc there with out a cpl.. becasue that current store manager may not agree with what someone at hq has said. all you need for them to do is place a call to 9-11. If they place a call and the police show up, im thinking you will be cited. "ianal"

    you dont want that call
    If he has permission he may OC there without a CPL.

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that
    possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    from what i understand the law to be is, he can not o/c at all with out a cpl at a place that has a liquor license.. correct me if i worng.

    op: even if you have a email from some random person at hq i still would not oc there with out a cpl.. becasue that current store manager may not agree with what someone at hq has said. all you need for them to do is place a call to 9-11. If they place a call and the police show up, im thinking you will be cited. "ianal"

    you dont want that call
    The law says you can't unless you have permission from the owner, or an agent of the owner, and what Corporate Headquarters says regarding corporate policy should suffice, I would think that a store manager would be over ruled when Corporate Policy (And I'll have a printout of that EMail) says I can.

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    Regular Member WARCHILD's Avatar
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    Your safest avenue of approach would be to make an appointment with the store manager you frequent.
    Take a copy of the email with you and see if he is in agreement and ask him for permission "in writing" to shop at the store while oc'ing. Since you do not have a cpl; explain to him that you need his permission to carry there because of the liquor license restriction for those without a cpl.

    JMO

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    If he has permission he may OC there without a CPL.
    i understand but see if a email holds up to some 7.25hour manager at the store...


    who is the higher up on the food chain the non 2a manager in store or the people at hq.."i no the answer"

    at the end of the day he can do it but it just makes it harder once ur cpl exp..

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    Quote Originally Posted by WARCHILD View Post
    Your safest avenue of approach would be to make an appointment with the store manager you frequent.
    Take a copy of the email with you and see if he is in agreement and ask him for permission "in writing" to shop at the store while oc'ing. Since you do not have a cpl; explain to him that you need his permission to carry there because of the liquor license restriction for those without a cpl.

    JMO
    great ideal

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    Quote Originally Posted by rvd4now View Post
    i understand but see if a email holds up to some 7.25hour manager at the store...


    who is the higher up on the food chain the non 2a manager in store or the people at hq.."i no the answer"

    at the end of the day he can do it but it just makes it harder once ur cpl exp..
    I'm not saying the corporate email is sufficient enough, what I'm saying is with permission he can. That's what the law says.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    I'm not saying the corporate email is sufficient enough, what I'm saying is with permission he can. That's what the law says.
    k.. yes get it in writeing from the gm of the store..

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    I would be truly shocked if any store manager would give anyone such authorization in writing.
    I sincerely doubt that a manager could justify within their policy manual doing such a thing.

    Also K-Mart upper management and corporate attorneys would have him/her for lunch. If store managers don't want to join the ranks of the previously employed, they do only those things they are trained and specifically authorized to do.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    I recently E Mailed KMart asking about their corporate policy regarding non licensed Open carry since Michigan law of course requires the permission of the "owner or the agent of the owner" when it's a store that sells liquor, and I thought you might be interested in the response, it looks like KMart does not have a problem with it.
    I disagree. I think you interpreted their response incorrectly.

    Dear Valued Customer,

    Thank you for your recent correspondence. We are always interested in
    hearing from our customers, and regret it was this type of situation
    that prompted you to contact us.

    Our corporate policy regarding customers who openly carry firearms on
    our store premises is that as long as the law of the state, in which our
    store is located, legally permits the open carrying of firearms (i.e.
    carrying a firearm on one's person in plain sight), customers will be
    permitted to openly carry firearms within our stores.


    By sharing your concerns, you have enabled us to provide feedback to the
    appropriate person. Truly, your remarks provide forthright feedback
    that will enable Sears to achieve excellence in everything we do.

    Once again, thank you for contacting us.


    Sincerely,
    Jennifer G.,
    Retail Customer Care
    Sears Holdings Corporation
    They are saying they follow state law, and state law says you cant OC w/o a CPL if they sell alcohol.
    Last edited by fozzy71; 10-25-2011 at 08:41 PM.
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    I recently E Mailed KMart asking about their corporate policy regarding non licensed Open carry since Michigan law of course requires the permission of the "owner or the agent of the owner" when it's a store that sells liquor, and I thought you might be interested in the response, it looks like KMart does not have a problem with it.

    Dear Valued Customer,

    Thank you for your recent correspondence. We are always interested in
    hearing from our customers, and regret it was this type of situation
    that prompted you to contact us.

    Our corporate policy regarding customers who openly carry firearms on
    our store premises is that as long as the law of the state,
    in which our
    store is located, legally permits the open carrying of firearms (i.e.
    carrying a firearm on one's person in plain sight), customers will be
    permitted to openly carry firearms within our stores.


    By sharing your concerns, you have enabled us to provide feedback to the
    appropriate person. Truly, your remarks provide forthright feedback
    that will enable Sears to achieve excellence in everything we do.

    Once again, thank you for contacting us.


    Sincerely,
    Jennifer G.,
    Retail Customer Care
    Sears Holdings Corporation
    I do NOT see any permission given in that letter from KMart for anyone without a CPL to openly carry in their stores!!

    What I do see is that KMart will abide by the laws of the State where the store is... and in Michigan the law says:

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.


    So OK.... that says no possession of a firearm on the premises (possession means you can't have a firearm, not just a pistol but any firearm, in your possession... which also means in the trunk of your car) of an establishment that has a liquor license.... unless...

    -You have a CPL in which case you can CC or OC a pistol or have a pistol in your trunk/car/truck.

    -You have permission of the owner or the owner's agent....

    But the problematic part of all this is that part about having permission and... as far as a plain reading of that letter from KMart goes....

    KMart said, and only said, those who are carrying in compliance with Michigan law may carry ... and for Michigan law pertaining to possessing a firearm on the premises of an establishment with a liquor license... see above.

    Edited to add:
    I see Fozzy beat me to it...
    Last edited by Bikenut; 10-25-2011 at 09:11 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    The law says you can't unless you have permission from the owner, or an agent of the owner, and what Corporate Headquarters says regarding corporate policy should suffice, I would think that a store manager would be over ruled when Corporate Policy (And I'll have a printout of that EMail) says I can.
    Agreed, keep a copy with you, the law requires permission of the owner or agent. The person sending email (the PR people) are the agents that kmart pays to represent the company in decisions like these. You are good to go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon....
    It doesnt say CPL.

    Your LTP license to purchase, or PP purchase permis is a license to carry. I cant recal the cite, Im watching top shot, but the law says its a licence to carry, among other things.. You've posted the cite yourself at other times.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 10-25-2011 at 11:37 PM.

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    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    ......

    You are good to go.
    Wrong.......
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    It doesnt say CPL.

    Your LTP license to purchase, or PP purchase permis is a license to carry. I cant recal the cite, Im watching top shot, but the law says its a licence to carry, among other things.. You've posted the cite yourself at other times.
    This is true, however, it's not a license to carry a concealed pistol. See MCL 28.422

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    I know, but he doesnt have a CPL, so CC in this discussion would be out of the picture.

    I should have been more specific, us old farts sometimes assume people already know.

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    Regular Member eastmeyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fozzy71 View Post
    I disagree. I think you interpreted their response incorrectly.



    They are saying they follow state law, and state law says you cant OC w/o a CPL if they sell alcohol.
    Exactly, my thoughts!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    I do NOT see any permission given in that letter from KMart for anyone without a CPL to openly carry in their stores!!

    What I do see is that KMart will abide by the laws of the State where the store is... and in Michigan the law says:

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.


    So OK.... that says no possession of a firearm on the premises (possession means you can't have a firearm, not just a pistol but any firearm, in your possession... which also means in the trunk of your car) of an establishment that has a liquor license.... unless...

    -You have a CPL in which case you can CC or OC a pistol or have a pistol in your trunk/car/truck.

    -You have permission of the owner or the owner's agent....

    But the problematic part of all this is that part about having permission and... as far as a plain reading of that letter from KMart goes....

    KMart said, and only said, those who are carrying in compliance with Michigan law may carry ... and for Michigan law pertaining to possessing a firearm on the premises of an establishment with a liquor license... see above.

    Edited to add:
    I see Fozzy beat me to it...
    Bingo! Dead on!
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Agreed, keep a copy with you, the law requires permission of the owner or agent. The person sending email (the PR people) are the agents that kmart pays to represent the company in decisions like these. You are good to go.
    So so very wrong and mis-guided!
    "Bam, I like saying bam when I cite something, in fact I think I shall do this from here on out, as long as I remember.
    Bam!" - eastmeyers

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Small_Arms_Collector View Post
    Actually I do, but it will likely expire before I receive my renewal.
    I believe that MI Law has provisions for just such an event (Temp License)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    Agreed, keep a copy with you, the law requires permission of the owner or agent. The person sending email (the PR people) are the agents that kmart pays to represent the company in decisions like these. You are good to go.
    The manager is also an "agent" of the owner and his on the spot statement would carry more weight at that moment than your email.

    What you are asking is that someone (mgr, LEO) render a decision as to which is more valid. If asked to leave, please do so. Their private property is not the place to hold court, which is where you might find yourself if you do not honor the manager's demand/request.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Let me try this one more time... please read the law and pay attention to the word possess because possess means to have whether CC or OC or even just properly cased in the trunk for transport. Possess means you have the gun in your possession.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    I do NOT see any permission given in that letter from KMart for anyone without a CPL to openly carry in their stores!!

    What I do see is that KMart will abide by the laws of the State where the store is... and in Michigan the law says:

    THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
    Act 328 of 1931

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.

    Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.


    So OK.... that says no possession of a firearm on the premises (possession means you can't have a firearm, not just a pistol but any firearm, in your possession... which also means in the trunk of your car) of an establishment that has a liquor license.... unless...

    -You have a CPL in which case you can CC or OC a pistol or have a pistol in your trunk/car/truck.

    -You have permission of the owner or the owner's agent....

    But the problematic part of all this is that part about having permission and... as far as a plain reading of that letter from KMart goes....

    KMart said, and only said, those who are carrying in compliance with Michigan law may carry ... and for Michigan law pertaining to possessing a firearm on the premises of an establishment with a liquor license... see above.
    So in plain language... the only legal means of possessing a firearm on the premises (that means parking lot, lawn, the entire property) is to be an employed by the store armed security guard, a law enforcement officer, an average person with a CPL, or to have permission of the owner/agent.

    The law specifically states a license to carry, it does not say anything about the license to purchase.

    And that letter from KMart said that KMart follows the law I posted above... nowhere in that letter was any express or implied permission granted since it said they will follow what the law gives permission for.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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