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Thread: What exactly constitutes "your property" in MD?

  1. #1
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    What exactly constitutes "your property" in MD?

    If someone lives in a condo (or apartment, or single-family home) it is legal in MD to CC or OC inside your home and on your own property.

    So what exactly constitutes "your property"?

    If someone lives in a condo, and is an owner (not a renter or sub-lease), do the hallways inside the building but outside your unit (like the trash chute area, the mail box area and the laundry) also constitute "your property" or would carry in those areas be illegal in MD?

    What about the parking lot? It is private property, so carrying there would not be "public display of a firearm" because the area is not "public"--it is private property.

    I don't know enough about MD property law to figure this one out on my own, and MD Statute does not address condos specifically with regards to what does and does not constitute "private property" with regards to carry law.

    Any MD "legal eagles" out there who have an answer?

    I've considered calling the AG's office, but I imagine the answer I would get from them would be about as straight as a plate of spaghetti...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I have zero knowlege about Maryland law, but I do spot a few problems you might be creating for yourelf. Hope you don't mind my pointing them out to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    If someone lives in a condo (or apartment, or single-family home) it is legal in MD to CC or OC inside your home and on your own property.

    So what exactly constitutes "your property"?

    If someone lives in a condo, and is an owner (not a renter or sub-lease), do the hallways inside the building but outside your unit (like the trash chute area, the mail box area and the laundry) also constitute "your property" or would carry in those areas be illegal in MD?

    In a condo you exclusively own the property inside the unit's walls. All the other property is owned in common. It's not "your" property but the property of the condo association or whatever other legal entity owns the common property.

    What about the parking lot? It is private property, so carrying there would not be "public display of a firearm" because the area is not "public"--it is private property.

    Unless Maryland has some good case law defining the concept of curtilige (does Maryland even recognize the concept?) you are going to be committing a "public display of a firearm" because the public has an unimpeded and unrestricted view of the area, regardless of who owns the land the act was committed on. This is based on the presumption that Maryland considers a "public display" anything the public can see without actually violating trespass law - leave your curtains/blinds up and walk around your house naked and the public can see you from the sidewalk/street it's a "public display" even though you never went outside. Keep the curtains/blinds drawn and force the neighbors to trespass onto your property to peek in through the edge of the window and it could still be a "public display" but I think that ruling finally got overturned (and I can't remember but feel fairly safe in saying it was not in Maryland anyhow).

    I don't know enough about MD property law to figure this one out on my own, and MD Statute does not address condos specifically with regards to what does and does not constitute "private property" with regards to carry law.

    Me, too. Everything above is generic. You'll need to research it against Maryland case law to see how far off base I might be.

    Any MD "legal eagles" out there who have an answer?

    I've considered calling the AG's office, but I imagine the answer I would get from them would be about as straight as a plate of spaghetti...

    Will the Maryland AG give an opinion to a private citizen? Here in Virginia the AG only gives opinions to members of the General Assembly or (I think) local government (mayor/board of supervisor). Even if the Maryland AG gives an opinion, how binding will it be on a Maryland court?
    stay safe.
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    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    Regular Member Mr H's Avatar
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    Skid...

    As I understand it, you're on the right track.

    The "ownership" or "bona fide residence" criteria are pretty limited. Pretty much limited to the real property itself, hotel rooms, or (for lack of a beter term) access-granted private domiciles (examples being secondary residences of family members and rental properties).

    In Maryland, I just keep myself to carrying at my own home, hotel rooms, and our family's place in Ocean City.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    So this is slightly off-topic, but here's an interesting bit of trivia about how screwed-up MD law is...

    In MD, carrying a firearm without a permit is a misdemeanor.

    But if you bring more than 2 packs (not cartons--PACKS) of cigarettes into MD without MD tax stamps, you are committing a FELONY.

    Just thought y'all might be interested...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    So this is slightly off-topic, but here's an interesting bit of trivia about how screwed-up MD law is...

    In MD, carrying a firearm without a permit is a misdemeanor.

    But if you bring more than 2 packs (not cartons--PACKS) of cigarettes into MD without MD tax stamps, you are committing a FELONY.

    Just thought y'all might be interested...
    To continue the thread drift until you get around to posting if you agree or disagree with the proffered analysis on condo property vs personally owned property within a condo regiem -

    does Maryland law state a timeframe you have in which to submit the required tax and tax declarations? And does Maryland rebate the state tax you paid in the other state where you obtained the cigarettes?

    Go look up case law involving Taxachusetts trying to nail its citizens at the border for crossing into New Hampster to take advantage of the lower prices and no sales tax situation. Seems arresting someone at the state border does not give them the opportunity to actually violate the law by failing to remit the king's penney.

    Seems those swords do in fact cut both ways.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    I agree with the interpretations of the law as offered in the context of MD, but i have problems with the idea that the State has that 1) the "public" areas inside a condo building are not "private property", and 2) that Maryland doesn't really respect curtilage rights.

    But the law--regardless of how racist, stupid, nonsensical or immoral it is--is still the law, and I will respect it for the most part...

    Even though MD residents that are "senior members" of certain firearms forums often suggest that if people disagree with MD law, they should clandestinely carry anyway...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-27-2011 at 11:30 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    And there is the crux of your problem - there are no "public" areas inside a condo building, even though a member of the general public (in other words, someone who does not own a condo unit) can enter therein without need for a key or special invitation by one of the condo unit owners. There are "common" areas that are owned by the condo association for the use and enjoyment (a legal term) of all the condo owners.

    As far as I can recall and read, nobody has said that Maryland does not respect curtilige rights. I raised the question as a hint to you of how you might see if case law would support your OCing within the curtilige of your condo unit (or even how that area might be defined). Further expanding on that thought, it may be easier to get the legislature to refine the definition of curtilige, without needing to bring up OC/CC, than to get a change in the laws, or interpretation of existing laws, regarding OC/CC. I'm confident that there are other things one might do within the curtilige of their home that current law impinges if not outright infringes. Just to give you an idea, look at the Michigan case of the homeowner who was raising a vegetable garden in her front yard in supposed violation of a city ordinance regarding lawns.

    What "'senior members' of certain firearms forums often suggest" is clearly that people should purposely violate the law. While reporting what other folks might do in that regard is not an absolute violation of OCDO rules, it suggests mens rea on your part and will most likely come back to bite you when (not if) you are caught. If you set out to intentionally violate the law you need to be willing to accept and deal with the consequences of doing so - and usually on your own. At this time carrying a handgun in violation of Maryland's laws does not seem to meet the definition of civil disobedience of a morally unjust law.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    At this time carrying a handgun in violation of Maryland's laws does not seem to meet the definition of civil disobedience of a morally unjust law.

    stay safe.
    How so? I'm assuming that you are aware that Maryland carry permits only exist in theory.

    I wish I could find a link for the direct quote, but I seem to recall reading somewhere about a Maryland state congressman once saying something to the effect of how the second amendment does not apply in Maryland.

    I'm not going to dig around for the link on my smartphone right now, but if I can find it later on my laptop I'll link to it here.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk
    Carry on!

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruger View Post
    How so? I'm assuming that you are aware that Maryland carry permits only exist in theory.

    I wish I could find a link for the direct quote, but I seem to recall reading somewhere about a Maryland state congressman once saying something to the effect of how the second amendment does not apply in Maryland.

    .....
    Actually, I know one guy who does not seem to be a rich fatcat politically connected synchophant who has an honest-to-goodness current Maryland concealed carry permit. It may be the only black swan, but there it is.

    There is no law in Maryland that says someone cannot get a concealed carry permit. Instead there is a corrupted patronage system that blocks 99.9%+ of those that apply from being granted a permit. Since civil disobedience is a form of protest against immoral law, and there is no immoral law to protest, there can not be (at least by definition) any civil disobedience.

    As you hopefully will note, I am well aware that there is what can with a great deal of certainty be described as a conspiracy across the board from the Governor's office on down to make it as close to impossible for someone to successfully apply for and receive a permit. The same can probably be said of the Maryland judicial system, but I am not really up to speed on lawsuits filed against the current practice.

    The congressman's quote has a nice ring to it, but since there are apparently scads (a scienticically accurate measurement) of people with guns who want to carry them concealed, I'd say that at worst there is a major dispute over the right to bear arms has been significantly infringed against or not.

    Do not think that I support the current status of Marylanders' inability to discretely carry handguns. It is about as far from the truth as you could get. You can, on the other hand, pretty much bet the family farm on the fact that I have little regard for how the citizens of Maryland are addressing the situation. The local rights organizations' attitude towards outside groups is rather well known. It might have some bearing on why there is so little support from outside Maryland.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member Maryland Shall Issue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    The local rights organizations' attitude towards outside groups is rather well known. It might have some bearing on why there is so little support from outside Maryland.
    I'd be interested to know what you base that statement on and to which groups it applies.
    Last edited by Maryland Shall Issue; 10-28-2011 at 04:46 PM.

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maryland Shall Issue View Post
    I'd be interested to know what you base that statement on and to which groups it applies.
    I think we all know which org "Skid" is talking about. There is no mystery there...

    The mystery is why, his remark stays on the forum, but when I make the EXACT same kinds of remarks, they get summarily expunged, and the thread gets locked.

    And therein lies the rub, to quote the Bard...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-28-2011 at 06:57 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    What "'senior members' of certain firearms forums often suggest" is clearly that people should purposely violate the law. While reporting what other folks might do in that regard is not an absolute violation of OCDO rules, it suggests mens rea on your part and will most likely come back to bite you when (not if) you are caught.
    Actually, I never said I would follow the unlawful advice of those members. I was simply reporting that the common theme among many MD "gun rights" folks is that they would rather disobey the law (and suggest other do as well) than be denied their Rights.

    Considering how I have been treated by certain people in the MD "gun rights" community, the LAST thing I would do would be to follow their advice--let alone consider it to be anything but ill-conceived, elitist, and perhaps intentionally dispensed in order to get "outsiders" in trouble...

    I will follow the law in MD--to the letter--believe you me.

    But that doesn't stop me from my daily EHOC activities, which ARE perfectly legal, even in this god-forsaken oligarchical serfdom...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-28-2011 at 07:04 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruger View Post
    I wish I could find a link for the direct quote, but I seem to recall reading somewhere about a Maryland state congressman once saying something to the effect of how the second amendment does not apply in Maryland.
    Unless you are speaking of State Senator Brian Frosh (who I don't think has ever said anything that nice about "regular people" and their right to carry in MD), I think you must be thinking of Judge Albert Matricciani, of the MD Appeals Court, in his post-Heller "Williams v. State" decision that ruled essentially that the 2A does not apply in MD because the MD State Constitution does not "grant" such a right.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504383_1...94-504383.html

    Apparently Judge Matricciani does not realize that here in the USA, we are NOT under Napoleonic Law, and that there are certain UNALIENABLE rights that ALL human beings are endowed with, among them the RKBA. One can only wonder where Judge Matricciani acquired his law degree, because the law as he practices it has little--if ANY--resemblance to American Jurisprudence.

    Also, in 1994, the MD AG issued a direktiv stating that is was the official position of the State that the 2A does not apply in MD. You can download that disgusting document of filth and lies from this site:

    www.oag.state.md.us/Opinions/1994/79OAG206.pdf
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maryland Shall Issue View Post
    I'd be interested to know what you base that statement on and to which groups it applies.

    Don't do it, "Skid".

    I was tempted to supply a litany of links to these statements, and some of the exemplary hate-filled posts regarding the pervasive MD disdain for help from "outside", but then I realized what this post was--a clever ruse.

    He's trying to get us to make specific reference to a specific forum or group, so he can delete the posts, and have this thread locked or deleted. It's the "Maryland Way"...

    Do not fall for their ruse. Keep things vague. Link ONLY to MSM stories and video. Do not mention specific orgs or forums by name.

    Do not take the bait, "Skid". Don't give them the excuse to shut down this thread, as they have so many controversial threads before that have been legitimately critical of MD "gun rights" activism, and the insular, zenophobic, elitist attitude that many Maryland 2A "activists" display...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
    ....

    Also, in 1994, the MD AG issued a direktiv stating that is was the official position of the State that the 2A does not apply in MD. You can download that disgusting document of filth and lies from this site:

    www.oag.state.md.us/Opinions/1994/79OAG206.pdf
    Dreamer,

    You are going to have to give up beating on this horse - it is now officially dead. As much as the Maryland AG and others may wish it were not so, SCOTUS has spoken and said the 2nd Amendment does apply to the states and has always applied.

    Now if someone were to challenge all the legislation that was enacted based on reliance upon that specific AG's opinion ....

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maryland Shall Issue View Post
    I'd be interested to know what you base that statement on and to which groups it applies.
    Disregarding Dreamer's cautionary appeal, I will respond.

    I base the statement on personal experience and the personal experiences of others whose reports I have personally vetted. It applies to those organizations that I and others have had personal experiences with. Those experiences include, but are not limited to, being asked to leave, being asked to remove signs indicating support from an out-of-state organization, and being asked to remove indica of membership in an out-of-state organization.

    Unless you are officially representing any other organization(s) it is inappropriate for you to make a request that has the appearance of being submitted on their behalf. If you are in fact officially representing any other organization(s) you should make that relationship clear up front.

    To call out any specific organization(s) involved in these incidents would be a violation of the rules under which OCDO operates.

    As to why Dreamer wonders why my post(s) remain unmolested I can only speculate that either they have not been reported to a moderator or administrator for determination of a rule violation, or if reported were determined not to have violated a rule. There is also a possibility that a moderator has not yet independently perused them as part of the general monitoring process.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  17. #17
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Dreamer,

    You are going to have to give up beating on this horse - it is now officially dead. As much as the Maryland AG and others may wish it were not so, SCOTUS has spoken and said the 2nd Amendment does apply to the states and has always applied.

    I don't mean to sound condescending, but apparently you don't have a clear understanding of MD state history.

    Maryland is the ONLY state that was created out of the Royal Land Grant property of a single person. Every other state was created out of conglomerating several private land grants into one Body.

    Maryland was created as a Sovereign Colony in the care of a single person, who's word was literally the law of the land, as official steward of the land by boon of the Crown.

    Unfortunately, the government of Maryland has never really gotten past that mindset. The entire history of Maryland is replete with abuses from the Executive, Legislature and Judiciary. It is a sandcastle built on racism, classism, elitism, croneyism and oligarchy. The only thing that has changed in the last 240+ years is that Annapolis doesn't send tribute directly to the Crown of England (unless you consider the money that the MSP receives from the drug-dealing DEA, DOJ, TSA ad ICE to be somehow connected to the British Royal drug syndicate...)

    Maryland needs to hit the RESET button, and bring their "government" to heel. They do not realize in Annapolis (and neither do their "Nottingham Sheriffs" in Pikesville) that they are no longer some sort of Crown-sanctioned oligarchy but are in fact part of a Democratic Republic that recognizes several UNALIENABLE rights.

    The legislature is an organized criminal enterprise. The Courts are 99% on the take. The Executive of MD is a capo de tutti capo.

    The fact is that MD government-state, county, and most municipalities--would be eligible for prosecution under federal RICO statutes if anyone too the time to actually look into their books, and file the proper paperwork with the federal courts.

    We don't need to change the laws in MD--we need to abolish the entire governmental system in MD and start from scratch with the provision that being a professional politician, previously holding MD office, or working as an attorney automatically disqualifies one from running...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-29-2011 at 11:17 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  18. #18
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maryland Shall Issue View Post
    I'd be interested to know what you base that statement on and to which groups it applies.
    I was assigned a "handler" and was actively steered away from visiting candidates for office at a meeting of a MD org last year.

    I was personally told that if I submitted a membership form that my check would be returned uncashed because money from "people like me" is not wanted by said org.

    I was banned for life from a forum because I threatened to "out" several State Senators and Reps during testimony before the MD Judiciary Committee during a CC reciprocity hearing and to the Press through a friend that I have who is a writer for the Baltimore Sun.


    How is that for a start? We can go on--I'm sure that between "Skid" and I, we could go on for a few hundred lines...
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  19. #19
    Regular Member Maryland Shall Issue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Disregarding Dreamer's cautionary appeal, I will respond.

    I base the statement on personal experience and the personal experiences of others whose reports I have personally vetted. It applies to those organizations that I and others have had personal experiences with. Those experiences include, but are not limited to, being asked to leave, being asked to remove signs indicating support from an out-of-state organization, and being asked to remove indica of membership in an out-of-state organization.
    Skid,

    I'd appreciate a PM with some more information on that because that would either be ancient history, as in pre-2004, or if in recent history I'd like to know under what circumstances that occurred.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maryland Shall Issue View Post
    Skid,

    I'd appreciate a PM with some more information on that because that would either be ancient history, as in pre-2004, or if in recent history I'd like to know under what circumstances that occurred.
    Since we have veered this far off topic without any real complaint, let's see if we can put the thread veer to rest.

    Rather than hash over history and how the alleged reputation(s) were earned, I'm going to give you the opportunity to document how MSI (the only organization I am aware you have the authority to speak for) has a) reached out for or b) embraced an offer of support from an out-of-state organization. The only restriction I place on this is that you not use examples of asking some other organization to be the major funder of a lawsuit.

    This way you can show how MSI operates and that any retutation it might have earned (prior to or since 2004) has been overcome, and I can avoid violating the OCDO rules. Sounds like a win-win offer. What do you say?

    stay safe.
    Last edited by skidmark; 10-29-2011 at 08:05 AM. Reason: %&(*^ typos
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  21. #21
    Regular Member Maryland Shall Issue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Since we have veered this far off topic without any real complaint, let's see if we can put the thread veer to rest.

    Rather than hash over history and how the alleged reputation(s) were earned, I'm going to give you the opportunity to document how MSI (the only organization I am aware you have the authority to speak for) has a) reached out for or b) embraced an offer of support from an out-of-state organization. The only restriction I place on this is that you not use examples of asking some other organization to be the major funder of a lawsuit.

    This way you can show how MSI operates and that any retutation it might have earned (prior to or since 2004) has been overcome, and I can avoid violating the OCDO rules. Sounds like a win-win offer. What do you say?

    stay safe.
    •Philip Van Cleave from VCDL has been up to our meetings.

    •I was on the phone last night with Dave Vann from Virginia about a brief that we are working on for Masciandaro.

    •Been working with a Virginia firearms instructor who works the VA gun show circuit to distribute information for us.

    •Made sure that a certain Virginia resident who was being railroaded on trumped firearms charges was financially supported in his legal defense
    http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread...light=skidmark

    •Vigorously supported two reciprocity bills that would have done nothing for Maryland residents but would have benefitted the residents of our neighboring states.

    •Attended the Students for Concealed Carry on Campus conference at the National Press Club in DC and spoke with Dr. Lott, Mr. Heller and some of the VCDL folks about things we could work on.

    •Would have been represented at the Gun Rights Policy Conference if our representative had not had a major defense contract blow up in his face.

    •Regularly participating in conversations with representatives of organizations in Texas, Oregon, Florida, Montana, Utah, Minnesota, Virginia, Ohio, South Carolina and probably some others that I've missed.

    •Co-sponsored an amicus on McDonald with the following:
    GUN OWNERS OF AMERICA, INC.,
    GUN OWNERS FOUNDATION,
    GUN OWNERS OF CALIFORNIA, INC.,
    DOWNSIZEDC.ORG,
    CONSERVATIVE LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATION FUND,
    THE LINCOLN INSTITUTE FOR RESEARCH AND EDUCATION,
    U.S. BORDER CONTROL,
    U.S. BORDER CONTROL FOUNDATION

    •Co-sponsored a brief in support of Heller II along with:
    Gun Owners of America, Inc.,
    Gun Owners Foundation,
    Virginia Citizens Defense League,
    Gun Owners of California, Inc.,
    Lincoln Institute for Research and Education, and
    Conservative Legal Defense and Education Fund

    •Co-sponsored a brief on OCDO's very own Grey Peterson's case along with:
    SECOND AMENDMENT FOUNDATION, INC.,
    BUCKEYE FIREARMS FOUNDATION,
    CITIZENS' RIGHTS ACTION LEAGUE,
    COMMONWEALTH SECOND AMENDMENT,
    CONNECTICUT CITIZENS DEFENSE LEAGUE,
    CALGUNS FOUNDATION, INC.,
    GUN OWNERS CIVIL RIGHTS ALLIANCE,
    HAWAII DEFENSE FOUNDATION,
    ILLINOIS CARRY,
    ILLINOIS STATE RIFLE ASSOCIATION,
    MAINE OPEN CARRY ASSOCIATION,
    OREGON FIREARMS EDUCATIONAL FOUNDATION,
    WISCONSIN CARRY, INC.,
    SCOPE, INC.,
    STILLWATER FIREARMS ASSOCIATION,
    VIRGINIA CITIZENS DEFENSE LEAGUE, INC.,
    WEST VIRGINIA CITIZENS DEFENSE LEAGUE, INC
    Last edited by Maryland Shall Issue; 10-29-2011 at 08:48 AM. Reason: syntax

  22. #22
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Nearly every incident you listed involved either a certain MD org writing checks to other orgs/people or courting out-of-staters to write checks to said MD org.

    I understand that in the PRM, money is the grease that sets the corrupt gears of the Annapolis Oligarchy to turning, but I wonder if participating in the system of "tribute for perks" is really the way to go? I mean really, how's that working out for ya so far?...

    What about public outreach? What about education? What about large-scale public protests?

    Oh, but that would mean that gun rights people in MD might be "blackballed" by their lucrative military-industrial complex employers and threatened with loss of their prescious security clearances, or even their jobs in the industry of death, tyranny and corruption.

    How about if every single member of some un-named MD 2A org would just wear an empty holster whenever they went about their daily business after they got off work--EVERY DAY? What about public outreach on an individual basis, discussing the fundamental human right to self-defense? What about just sending an email link to the text of the "Warren v. District of Columbia" to every anti-gun person they know in MD, or just shout out "Warren V. District of Columbia" at press conferences every time some MD politico spreads the lie that police are there to protect you?

    What about publicly confronting Brian Frosh, Babs Mikulski and other virulently anti-2A MD State and Federal Senators and Reps about their own MD Carry Permits EVERY SINGLE TIME they appear in public, to expose their elitism, their duplicity, and their brazen disdain for the sanctity of the lives of their "constituents"?

    Oh, no, those sort of suggestions got ME "banned for life" from an un-named MD 2A forum, and got me treated like I was some sort of Soviet Spy when I attended a meeting of an un-named MD 2A org last year. The reason I was given for my treatment was that "actions like that work against our cause, because the State will just retaliate against us with even more draconian measures..."

    My response to that is "Grow a few vertebrae..."

    Franklin was right--A people DO get the government they deserve, and it is my opinion that the People of Maryland DESERVE the gun laws they have because they have, for the most part, proven themselves to be so utterly cowed by their tyrannical overlords, and so inseparably enmeshed with the corrupt system of governance in their state that they are incapable of acting in any sort of libertine manner, and are too enslaved by the almighty Teat of their Government Paychecks to even consider any sort of peaceful civil disobedience.

    I don't blame the 2A orgs or the 2A forums in MD for their attitudes. They are the victims of over 2 centuries of elitism, oligarchy, corruption and graft. They have come into existence in an environment and culture so bereft of honor and integrity and so pervasively inculcated with zenophobia and propaganda that the only way they know to function is through intimidation, bakshesh, and exclusionary dynamics.

    I pity them more than I dislike them, really.

    So don't worry, Skid, and anyone else in the contiguous states of the PRM. When you are ostracized, demonized, and STILL they come begging for money to "help the cause", they REALLY can't help themselves. Just keep fighting the good fight in whatever way YOU see fit--justice come may the heavens fall. Know in your hearts that despite the epidemic sickness that has been planted into the hearts, minds and souls of the good People of Maryland by their Overlords through over 2 centuries of programming and repression, someday--someday soon--the demonic oligarchs in Annapolis and Pikesville will see Justice, and someday, even the poor subjects of Maryland will know freedom--DESPITE the "efforts" of the people who claim to be "working for their rights"...

    BTW, I have copied this post to my HD, so even if this thread gets locked or deleted (which I'm pretty much betting on), I'll still have this text, and will continue to post this and similar editorials--because "they" asked for me to do so...
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-30-2011 at 02:34 AM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  23. #23
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Actually, I know one guy who does not seem to be a rich fatcat politically connected synchophant who has an honest-to-goodness current Maryland concealed carry permit. It may be the only black swan, but there it is.

    And I know ONE as well--a female RN who works in Johns Hopkins Trauma Ward, and although she received numerous death threats from gang-bangers because she and her tem patched up several of their victims, her permit application was DENIED. Only after she was attacked and mugged in the parking lot of her own home was she able to secure a permit--because she now had some sort of paper trail of an actual crime against her being committed. She's not rich or well-connected, and has actually testified for several CC and reciprocity Bills in the MD GA, but she has one of those super-rare "unrestricted" carry permits. She also admits that it will most likely NOT be renewed the next time she applies for renewal, because her attacker is in jail, and therefore she is, as the MSP likes to say, "no longer under imminent threat"...

    I actually know several people with "unlimited" MD carry permits, but every one with the above-mentioned exception is either a LEO, ex-LE, or works for the "intelligence community", and therefore falls into the "well connected" category (even if they are not the other 2 "W's"...)
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

  24. #24
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Now that we all have gotten that out of our systems, let's get back to the topic at hand.

    Being lazy, and being without my former access to Nexus-Lexis, where do I go to get educated on Maryland's understanding of private property, personal property, and how those concepts are applied to te common areas of a condomunium regiem? Where do I go to get educated on Maryland's interpretation of what is private and what is not private (whether it is also considered public or not) activity conducted on the curtilige of one's home/dwelling?

    For bonus points, does anyone else understand the distinction raised in asking "what is private and what is not private (whether it is also considered public or not) activity"?

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  25. #25
    Regular Member Dreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Being lazy, and being without my former access to Nexus-Lexis, where do I go to get educated on Maryland's understanding of private property, personal property, and how those concepts are applied to te common areas of a condomunium regiem?

    Here's the catch with ANY sort of MD law--the State allows it's individual feifdoms to establish laws, codes, and policies of their own--often in direct conflict with State Statute, especially if they afford the opportunity for increased revenue generation in teh way of fees and fines.

    Researching MD law is like unraveling a Gordian Knot.

    The only real long-term solution to fair and equitable law in MD--for ANY pursuit, from gun rights to property rights to civil rights--is the "Alexandrian solution".

    However, outside of a MASSIVE "reset button", it is nearly impossible to fathom most MD codes and statutes without the help of an "officially anointed priest" of the Bar, and even then, the advice you get will be subject to interpretation by the Courts--who's general influence on decision-making is the depths of the pockets of the plaintiff, and the amount of largess they contribute to State and Municipal coffers...

    For instance, although the courts in both MD and VA have concluded on SEVERAL accounts that VA's Riparian Rights extend to the entire Potomac River and allow municipalities to build water intakes and piers that extend far past the designated "boundry" designated by both the 1785 Compact and the Black-Jenkins Award, MSP and MD DNR have BOTH successfully prosecuted VA residents and out-of-staters launching boats from VA docks for possessing firearms on their crafts in violation of MD law (but legal under VA law)

    The Courts in MD do not follow Rule of Law. They follow Rule of Who We can Push Around, and Rule of Who's Pockets We Can Successfully Rifle, the actual Statutory Law, Common Law Precedent, or Established Federal Codes or Court Decisions be damned...

    If I saw someone walking around on private property in Potomac MD at some multi-million dollar mansion with a S&W .44 on their hip and called in a MWAG to the MSP or Sheriff I would be told to go away, because it was private property. (meaning they have paid for their privacy by enriching the coffers of the State with property taxes, campaign contributions, etc).

    But if my crack-head musician downstairs neighbor saw me standing on my balcony which is part of the PRIVATE PROPERTY of our Condo, wearing a Glock on my hip, and called in a MWAG, I guarantee you HoCo police, Columbia PD and probably MSP would be here in minutes with a SWAT team, putting the entire area on lock-down, and probably shooting our cats to death after they broke down the door in the performance of their "routine investigation"...

    Quite honestly, it would actually be a favor to us if they would then seize this property and take it form us, because we're TOTALLY upside down on our mortgage...


    In other words, what does and does not constitute private property in MD often is decided based on the depth of the pockets of the "violator" and how well-connected they are.

    Does that ring any bells with any other MD policies, folks?

    And BTW, according to the Castle Coalition, a private property rights/eminent domain fighting group, Maryland gets a score of "D" with regards to private property ownership rights in the US...
    http://www.condemnation-law.com/main...roperty-rights
    Last edited by Dreamer; 10-30-2011 at 02:50 PM.
    It is our cause to dispel the foggy thinking which avoids hard decisions in the delusion that a world of conflict will somehow mysteriously resolve itself into a world of harmony, if we just don't rock the boat or irritate the forces of aggression—and this is hogwash."
    --Barry Goldwater, 1964

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