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Thread: To register, Or not to register, that is the question??

  1. #1
    Regular Member DonRow's Avatar
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    To register, Or not to register, that is the question??

    So I'm just wondering how my people here thinks registering any gun with local LEO, is a violation of the 2nd?

    Sorry if this question was brought up before.


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    Regular Member Ruger's Avatar
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    Registration is not necessary for public safety, nor is it authorized by the Constitution.

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    Carry on!

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    Regular Member KRM59's Avatar
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    Violation of 2A

    I have to agree with Ruger. I am in no way an expert on anything but the only reason behind registering your firearm with LE or any other government department would be for them to know where to go to take them from you. as for the Violating aspect, theres nothing in the constitution about the registration of firearms, so i guess it wouldn't be violating the 2A. with that said it still is not IMHO a way to stop any type of crime, bar theft. but you know as well as i do a bad guy is not going to register a weapon anyways and they already get caught with firearms that are stolen. It is always the best path when government is left out of things.
    "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
    - George Mason

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    Regular Member DonRow's Avatar
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    The reason why I ask is here in Hawaii my friend ask them why we need to register and the only reason they could come up with was "just in case it get stolen" then he said to them "you know this is a violation of my 2nd and maybe 4th amendment right" and all he said he got was a blank stare. :/


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    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonRow View Post
    So I'm just wondering how my people here thinks registering any gun with local LEO, is a violation of the 2nd?

    Sorry if this question was brought up before.


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    This question? Nah bro, this hasn't been brought up here....
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonRow View Post
    The reason why I ask is here in Hawaii my friend ask them why we need to register and the only reason they could come up with was "just in case it get stolen" then he said to them "you know this is a violation of my 2nd and maybe 4th amendment right" and all he said he got was a blank stare. :/


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    Just in case it gets stolen...

    That is why I maintain my own private list of my firearms with serial numbers and photos. I keep it in a secure place and if one of my guns were to be stolen then I would have the option of providing that information to the authorities.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member KRM59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Just in case it gets stolen...

    That is why I maintain my own private list of my firearms with serial numbers and photos. I keep it in a secure place and if one of my guns were to be stolen then I would have the option of providing that information to the authorities.
    +1
    "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them."
    - George Mason

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonRow View Post
    So I'm just wondering how my people here thinks registering any gun with local LEO, is a violation of the 2nd?

    Sorry if this question was brought up before.


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    Let me answer your query with my own.

    Name ANOTHER Constitutionally PROTECTED right mentioned in the BILL of RIGHTS that ANY GOVERNMENT AGENCY ANYWHERE in the US requires REGISTRATION?
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 10-27-2011 at 09:42 PM.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  9. #9
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Let me answer your query with my own.

    Name ANOTHER Constitutionally PROTECTED right mentioned in the BILL of RIGHTS that ANY GOVERNMENT AGENCY ANYWHERE in the US requires REGISTRATION?
    Voting.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Voting.
    OK, you got me there. Is there ANY other?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
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    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    OK, you got me there. Is there ANY other?
    Hmmm - feeling very perverse today. Let's see - Life, liberty and ...oh, oh, back up life.

    Birth registration - from the day we are born, we are registered.

    Liberty - remember the military draft registration? Deprived you of your liberty when you were drafted.

    Pursuit of Happiness - marriage certificate/registration required.

    Death - yep, you get logged out or registered as the case may be.

    When it comes to being "registered", we have everything but the tattoo, bar code and chip..
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  12. #12
    Regular Member DonRow's Avatar
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    scary to think that might be around the corner. The whole bar code and chip thing.




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    Last edited by DonRow; 10-28-2011 at 04:42 PM.

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    OK, Grapeshot, my friend, let me rephrase---- In the context of the OP query, ....?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Hmmm - feeling very perverse today. Let's see - Life, liberty and ...oh, oh, back up life.

    Birth registration - from the day we are born, we are registered.

    Liberty - remember the military draft registration? Deprived you of your liberty when you were drafted.

    Pursuit of Happiness - marriage certificate/registration required.

    Death - yep, you get logged out or registered as the case may be.

    When it comes to being "registered", we have everything but the tattoo, bar code and chip..
    Let me see.... Birth registration is NOT something the NEWBORN must do. Not Required in BILL OF RIGHTS
    Registered for the draft--- never drafted. Don't think that a standing army is even approved of in the BILL OF RIGHTS
    Pursuit of Happiness.... all depends upon what it is that you are pursuing. No requirement included in BILL OF RIGHTS
    Death reporting is not required to be done by the recently deceased person. no requirement in the BILL OF RIGHTS

    I am, however, just waiting for the infamous mark of the devil to be placed in all of our foreheads (I personally think this is a RETINAL SCAN). And how would someone from 2000 years ago in a donkey cart economy describe a retinal scan device in order to buy or sell as is described in the Bible (Not asking if you believe or not--- that is your business, just using as example.
    Last edited by JoeSparky; 10-28-2011 at 04:58 PM.
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  15. #15
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    OK, Grapeshot, my friend, let me rephrase---- In the context of the OP query, ....?
    Ah soo, believe that it is so. Definitely see firearms registration as an infringement on our RKBA.

    See many (all?) of the previously mention "registrations" onerous in themselves also.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  16. #16
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Let me answer your query with my own. Name ANOTHER Constitutionally PROTECTED right mentioned in the BILL of RIGHTS that ANY GOVERNMENT AGENCY ANYWHERE in the US requires REGISTRATION?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Voting.
    There is no Constitutional right to vote. The Fifteenth Amendment presumes an non-existent right to vote when it forbids denial or abridgement for particular reasons. "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude." The registration requirement denies the privilege of voting to the unregistered.

    Various states have guaranteed enfranchisement but not the federal Constitution.

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    There is no Constitutional right to vote. The Fifteenth Amendment presumes an non-existent right to vote when it forbids denial or abridgement for particular reasons. "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude." The registration requirement denies the privilege of voting to the unregistered.

    Various states have guaranteed enfranchisement but not the federal Constitution.
    Respectfully disagree.

    It specifies therein quite clearly the "right of citizens of the United States to vote" "shall not be denied"......

    If you hold that there be no prior creation of that right, then by virtue of the 15th Amendment it was accomplished. The 19th Amendment uses the same "right to vote" verbiage and therewith strengthens "shall not be denied."
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herr Heckler Koch View Post
    There is no Constitutional right to vote. The Fifteenth Amendment presumes an non-existent right to vote when it forbids denial or abridgement for particular reasons. "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude." The registration requirement denies the privilege of voting to the unregistered.

    Various states have guaranteed enfranchisement but not the federal Constitution.
    I'm hoping you meant pre-existing in stead of non. It really doesn't make any sense to me if you meant non.The rights are natural and predate the constitution. The constitution does not give us any rights - just tries to protect us from the Govt trampling on them.

    Methinks your perspective may need adjustment if you believe we get them from the constitution and don't have any if they burn the document metaphorically or literally.

    So they are not Constitutional rights but instead Constitutionally protected rights. Big difference if you think about it.
    Last edited by CommonMan101; 10-28-2011 at 09:24 PM.

  19. #19
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    SCOTUS BUSH ET AL. v. GORE ET AL 531 U.S. 98,

    "The individual citizen has no federal constitutional right to vote for electors for the President of the United States unless and until the state legislature chooses a statewide election as the means to implement its power to appoint members of the electoral college. U. S. Const., Art. II, § 1." Per curiam ¶ 104 My epmphasis

  20. #20
    Regular Member altajava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post

    Pursuit of Happiness - marriage certificate/registration required.

    .
    Is this an example of an oxymoron?!

  21. #21
    Regular Member DonRow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by altajava View Post
    Is this an example of an oxymoron?!
    Lol


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    Well, HHK. Your post actually backs me up. I told you the constitution is not a list of our rights - of course there is no constitutional right. It's natural and if the Govt wants to act like we don't have them after our use of the soap box and the ballot box then we still have the 3rd box to protect our natural rights. Which I believe a bunch of us here understand.

  23. #23
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    List of schools, documents and authors on Natural Rights.

    Here's a list of schools, documents and authors on Natural Rights in roughly chronological order. Cite chapter and verse from one arguing precisely for democracy or enfranchisement as a natural right.
    • Stoics
    • Seneca the Younger
    • Cicero
    • Confucian
    • Martin Luther
    • John Locke
    • Thomas Paine
    • George Mason
    • John Lilburne
    • Francis Hutcheson
    • Hegel
    • Thomas Hobbes
    • Richard Price
    • Staughton Lynd
    • Thomas Jefferson
    • Salmon P. Chase
    • Universal Declaration of Human Rights
    • California Constitution
    • Erich Fromm
    • Robert Nozick
    • Ludwig von Mises
    • Ayn Rand
    • Murray Rothbard
    • Hesselberg
    • Morris and Linda Tannehill
    • Stephan Kinsella
    • James Wilson
    • Samuel P. Huntington
    The argument against any pact of subjugation seems common and essential to a natural rights argument denying voluntary government of any sort. To which argument will you enslave your common self?

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    Can't decide whether it's sad or funny you expect pre-written permission for your rights.

    We do decide how we are going to do things - like electing our own representative Govt. - whether or not someone else at some other time has ever written it down before. If our own Govt does not represent us then it is illegitimate. That is a natural law - like gravity - don't care if someone wrote anything down about it at some past time. Current laws are our agreed upon rules of playing with each other - subject to change when we perceive an unfairness. Some laws are unjust from the start and need to be ignored. Happens all the time.

    Like I said, the third box of last resort is an option when those pre-written permission slips you insist on become a collar of oppression.

    Think of it this way: Carry your point of view back to the mid 1700's and look for where the colonists had any permission to start a country. I'm betting you find no pre-written permission. It was natural to want freedom.

    A modern example of what I am trying to get across you can see daily in courtrooms across America - jury nullification. Just because a law was written down at an earlier time it doesn't mean it can never be nullfied by 6 or 12 people deciding it's rightness as it applies to a real life situation.

    You know, The first 10 amendments were written because there were people that just had to have things spelled out before they got it. Sadly it comes across as a list of permissions and that is what I see you struggling with. Even they knew they couldn' list all the possible permutations of what would affect their liberty.

    "Constitutionally protected rights" and "Constitutional rights" two phrases that are not interchangeable because the latter doesn't exist. Once you accept the difference you will see my point.

    Lastly, What are you trying to accomplish? Are you trying to say every national election has been illegitimate? Or we must stop voting for national leaders and let them do what they want to us? Exactly what is the end result you are shooting for here?

    If it's purely about who gets to vote then I have two questions for you. Should we allow Chinese citizens to vote in our election?

    If not then how are you going to discern if they are legitimate American voters or Chinese vacationers wanting to put their two cents in?

    If we allow anyone and everyone in the world to vote in our elections - then we have no nation.
    Last edited by CommonMan101; 11-01-2011 at 08:47 AM.

  25. #25
    Herr Heckler Koch
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    Ah, thank you for well demonstrating that you are a student of solipsism and not of natural rights.

    It is silly to suggest that you alone stand as tall as the shoulders of the giants of civilization upon whom we stand.

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