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Thread: VA Gun Rights Pamphlet Updated Again

  1. #1
    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    VA Gun Rights Pamphlet Updated Again

    I took the time to update the Virginia Gun Rights folding pamphlet that has been floating around here. I believe the last version was updated by Dreamer sometime last year. A few different things passed through legislature since then.

    I reversed engineered the last updated file from PDF format to Microsoft Publisher format, then converted back to a PDF. I did the best to keep the same look and style, though. Since some of the statutes have changed, some parts of the pamphlet where moved around to allow for more room for other things.

    Anyway, if you see anything that needs fixing or updating, let me know.

    I'm also hosting the latest version at this link:
    http://carsontech.webs.com/Gun%20Law...209-9-2012.pdf

    I attached the most recent version of the pamphlet to this post, as well:
    Attached Files Attached Files

  2. #2
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I've always disagreed with listing "private property" in the list of prohibited places.

    My understanding of 18.2-308.O is that it was placed there solely to clarify that holding a CHP does not over-ride the rights of a property owner to restrict you from carrying. That is what it says, in fact*. On this pamphlet, it's included in a long list of places where the act of carrying is a violation of the law. That is not the case in Virginia, where the only consequence of carrying against the wishes of the owner is if you choose to not leave, and then it's trespassing. This is particularly a problem in an informational pamphlet because some other states do attach a criminal element to carrying on private property when prohibited.

    If it stays on the list, at the least we should add some indication that "trespass" is the consequence, not a gun-related criminal charge.

    JMHO.

    TFred

    ETA: Code:

    *O. The granting of a concealed handgun permit shall not thereby authorize the possession of any handgun or other weapon on property or in places where such possession is otherwise prohibited by law or is prohibited by the owner of private property.
    Last edited by TFred; 10-27-2011 at 02:32 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    I would remove the part about carrying concealed in a restaurant while consuming alcohol. It is unnecessarily confusing. I wouldn't list the restaurant thing at all.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    I would remove the part about carrying concealed in a restaurant while consuming alcohol. It is unnecessarily confusing. I wouldn't list the restaurant thing at all.
    Perhaps both these items should be in a different section, titled "Other notes" or something.

    Neither are prohibitions against carrying per se, but are definitely important things to be aware of.

    The restaurant item could be reworded a little:

    "You may not drink alcohol while carrying concealed in a restaurant or club."

    The property item could say something like:

    "Holding a CHP does not override the gun policies of private property owners."

    Again, JMHO...

    TFred

  5. #5
    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Perhaps both these items should be in a different section, titled "Other notes" or something.

    Neither are prohibitions against carrying per se, but are definitely important things to be aware of.

    The restaurant item could be reworded a little:

    "You may not drink alcohol while carrying concealed in a restaurant or club."

    The property item could say something like:

    "Holding a CHP does not override the gun policies of private property owners."

    Again, JMHO...

    TFred
    I agree. Both of your re-wordings are better than what is currently on the pamphlet.
    Last edited by thebigsd; 10-27-2011 at 03:00 PM.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Good suggestions guys! Perhaps some suggestion like that could be used on the latest VCDL Carry Card. When you get to wording about carrying in restaurants on the new card it is positively confusing.

  7. #7
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmelvin View Post
    Good suggestions guys! Perhaps some suggestion like that could be used on the latest VCDL Carry Card. When you get to wording about carrying in restaurants on the new card it is positively confusing.
    I think the cause goes back to when it was prohibited. Now the act of carrying is not prohibited, but drinking while doing so is. Different angle altogether, hard to fit in a list of "not here" places.

    TFred

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    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, I'll work on the pamphlet again tonight to see if I can clean the verbiage up. Keep the suggestions coming!

  9. #9
    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    As you guys can tell, I just used the information from the VCDL website. It's almost a straight copy and paste. I'm editing the pamphlet right now using the suggestions you guys gave.

    Here a link to the previous version of the Pamphlet (Dreamer's version?) before I created the "new" one that is in the original post, so you can see what i changed from it:

    http://carsontech.webs.com/Old%20VA%...20Pamphlet.pdf

    I'll post the latest version with the suggestions from this thread in a bit.
    Last edited by carsontech; 03-25-2012 at 07:45 AM.

  10. #10
    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    Updated the pamphlet with the suggestions in this thread, and more...

    Updated the link in the original post in this thread with this latest version.
    Last edited by carsontech; 03-25-2012 at 07:45 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I don't think B.10 covers any open carry issues (seat or dashboard). Open Carry is generally regarded as "not illegal, so it's legal." B.10 is a specific exemption to the general prohibition against carrying concealed.

    Also, just a suggestion, for the last one, I'd probably stick with the wording of the code: "secured in a container or compartment". We all agree that secured does not mean locked, but saying it in writing beyond the code itself on a public forum is probably not a great idea. Also, the code doesn't specifically say "loaded", so that one falls back to "not illegal, so it's legal".

    FWIW,

    TFred

    P.S. Should say, I really do like the changes! Good upgrade!
    Last edited by TFred; 10-29-2011 at 01:50 AM.

  12. #12
    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    TFred, I agree. I updated the PDF with how I interpreted your suggestions. I updated the original post to point to the latest version.
    Last edited by carsontech; 03-25-2012 at 07:45 AM.

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    Regular Member BillB's Avatar
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    Thank you for doing this - it's quite helpful.

  14. #14
    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    I forgot to ask, does anyone think this should be a sticky?

  15. #15
    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    I updated the VA Gun Rights pamphlet today. It includes updated information from the laws that went into effect 7/1/2012.

    Link to updated pamphlet:
    http://carsontech.webs.com/Gun%20Law...209-8-2012.pdf

    The original post has been updated to point to the updated pamphlet, as well.

    Let me know if you see anything that isn't correct!

  16. #16
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carsontech View Post
    I updated the VA Gun Rights pamphlet today. It includes updated information from the laws that went into effect 7/1/2012.

    See the original post for the link to the updated pamphlet.

    Let me know if you see anything that isn't correct!
    There is an exemption in 18.2-308.B.10. that states "Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;" which applies to 18.2-308.1.C "The exemptions set out in 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section." which allows anyone (CHP or no CHP) to bring a loaded handgun onto school property, provided it remains in the vehicle in said container or compartment. The exception stated in 18.2-308.1.C.(vi) is nullified by this exemption because 18.2-308 assumes that any handguns carried under its provisions are (likely) loaded unless otherwise prohibited.

    You might want to include this exemption in the section dealing with carry on school property.

    Just my .02
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  17. #17
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    There is an exemption in 18.2-308.B.10. that states "Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;" which applies to 18.2-308.1.C "The exemptions set out in 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section." which allows anyone (CHP or no CHP) to bring a loaded handgun onto school property, provided it remains in the vehicle in said container or compartment. The exception stated in 18.2-308.1.C.(vi) is nullified by this exemption because 18.2-308 assumes that any handguns carried under its provisions are (likely) loaded unless otherwise prohibited.

    You might want to include this exemption in the section dealing with carry on school property.

    Just my .02
    The problem is that it takes a couple hundred words to adequately explain that exception. Hard to fit on an already crowded pamphlet.

    TFred

  18. #18
    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    The problem is that it takes a couple hundred words to adequately explain that exception. Hard to fit on an already crowded pamphlet.

    TFred
    Yeah, I know. I'd spend days trying to word and format the text of brochures I made for a business I had. Not an easy process.

    However, I learned to prioritize. In this case, perhaps if the block reserved for notes were shrunk, there might be enough room to add just the text of the (very important) "Secured in a Closed Container" exemption to the School Carry section.

    For example, "The exemptions set out in 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section." 18.2-308.B.10 states "Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;" Further, "The provisions of this section shall not apply to ...
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  19. #19
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    In regards to the colleges and universities section, I was under the impression it was not against the law to carry there OC or CC, it was just against the school rules, for faculty staff and students? If so, it should not be listed there as to give the impression that it is against the law.

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    Also since VA's Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli has stated personal protection is a "good and sufficient reason" IMHO we should remove the places of worship part too.

  21. #21
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twpetry View Post
    Also since VA's Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli has stated personal protection is a "good and sufficient reason" IMHO we should remove the places of worship part too.
    I think the purpose of the pamphlet was to guide new carriers or outtastaters.
    I wouldn't start mixing laws and AG Opinions. They aren't the same thing.

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    I respect your opinion, however I personally think that if we are creating a pamphlet to inform people of their gun RIGHTS in Virginia, we should not put a place on an "Off-limits" list if they do in fact have a RIGHT to carry there.

    If a new carrier or out of state carrier were to look at the law as written they may assume they are not allowed to carry in a place of worship. I say it is our responsibility, in creating such a pamphlet, to help clarify the law and educate them that they ARE allowed to carry there. Is that not the point of the pamphlet? otherwise why not just list the laws...

  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twpetry View Post
    I respect your opinion, however I personally think that if we are creating a pamphlet to inform people of their gun RIGHTS in Virginia, we should not put a place on an "Off-limits" list if they do in fact have a RIGHT to carry there.

    If a new carrier or out of state carrier were to look at the law as written they may assume they are not allowed to carry in a place of worship. I say it is our responsibility, in creating such a pamphlet, to help clarify the law and educate them that they ARE allowed to carry there. Is that not the point of the pamphlet? otherwise why not just list the laws...
    Doesn't bother me either way but responsibility should go hand in hand with accuracy.

    As AG, Bob McDonnell wrote an opinion that the state could not prevent carrying in State Forests but it was years after that that it was actually allowed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Doesn't bother me either way but responsibility should go hand in hand with accuracy.

    As AG, Bob McDonnell wrote an opinion that the state could not prevent carrying in State Forests but it was years after that that it was actually allowed.
    Fair enough, I guess we have to get to work on Lobby Day and push a bill through!

  25. #25
    Activist Member carsontech's Avatar
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    I updated the pamphlet, again, with the following changes:

    1. Added info how one can posses a handgun, while in a vehicle, on K-12 school grounds, with or without a CHP.
    2. Moved the colleges and universities from the "Places Off-Limits While Carrying" section to the "Other Things to Know" section.

    Link to updated pamphlet:
    http://carsontech.webs.com/Gun%20Law...-2012%20V2.pdf

    I also updated the link and attachment in the original post.

    As TFred mentioned, this pamphlet is getting CROWDED. In order to put more content in the pamphlet, and to make it look better, the whole thing will need to be totally re-organized or re-created from scratch, with a fresh approach.

    I'm merely updating a pamphlet that already existed, created by another user. The pamphlet was fine "back when", but the amount of exceptions in gun laws that are created each legislative session could take up more than a few pamphlets by themselves, even when summarized. What ever happened to repealing laws instead of modifying them?

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