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Thread: Pierce county district court...again. Lawyerly advice welcome.

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    Regular Member sempercarry's Avatar
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    Pierce county district court...again. Lawyerly advice welcome.

    I got my first traffic ticket about a month ago and today I went to the PCDC on 96th to request a copy of the police report. Being as how it was a nice day I decided to ride my motorcycle. I was also CCing my Glock 23. Yes I know about the trouble with them but I thought I would go at it a little different. My plan was to attempt to lock it up and when they denied I was going to ask for manager and then a deputy. All was going as planned until, upon my request, 6 Lakewood police officers and 2 Pierce county deputies showed up and pretty much told me I was an idiot, that the lock boxes were an option to the corthouse, and they could arrest me if they wanted but didn't want to. There was alot of "do you want to get your business done or do you want to be right" To which I responded " I want to conclude my business and I want them to be in the right.". All this after they patted me down, took my gun and dropped it on the concrete from about 6 inches up. They eventually told me I was free to go after running me, my gun and my cpl and placing my unloaded pistol in my backpack. So I didn't get the request filled out...which I need to contest the ticket. I am looking for advice as to how I should get the request and possible move the wheels for a solution to the PCDC problem. Also, I had my recorder running during this whole thing but it magicly decided to stop recording and delete the recorded data until just before they gave me my stuff back.

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    Regular Member massivedesign's Avatar
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    Second Amendment Foundation, FOIA requests and document any photos of damage to the gun.
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    Do they have cameras in that area of the courthouse? If so I would FOIA the recording to start. I would contact LWPD and PCSD and file complaints on all the officers involved as well as whoever it was that initially denied you entrance and refused to allow you to lock up your pistol.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    You need to pm me about the speeding ticket and foi. I am out of town till Monday.
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    Angry Wow you had 8 police officers meet you?

    Sounds like color of law intimation to me. Once they took my gun from me first thing from my mouth is "I do not consent to a search". I have a tamper sticker on my gun's serial # . It really makes a mess trying to remove it to read the #. Thus said I have a few extra for my comrades in arms to have if you want one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeroket View Post
    Do they have cameras in that area of the courthouse? If so I would FOIA the recording to start. I would contact LWPD and PCSD and file complaints on all the officers involved as well as whoever it was that initially denied you entrance and refused to allow you to lock up your pistol.
    Sure would be interesting to see the specific OPINION ENFORCEMENT OFFICER in the video surveillance at the courthouse pushing the buttons on your recorder and destroying any audio that would have fleshed out what the officers were seen doing in the first place.

    It is a shame that they don't seem to realize that just following the law and not violating your rights is just a better way to do things!
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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sempercarry View Post
    Also, I had my recorder running during this whole thing but it magicly decided to stop recording and delete the recorded data until just before they gave me my stuff back.
    They had the recorder? Or you did?

    Might I suggest one of my alternate recording methods with video?

    Even IF you get arrested, it goes into personal belongings..... No one will think it's evidence.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Sorry you had your rights raped by the "authorities".

    But this is only another "isolated incident" and couldn't happen because the "bad apples" are quickly weeded out.

    They broke many laws, illegal detainment, illegal search and seizure, coercion, etc. Time to sue them. Or they will never learn. If I was closer I would OC to the police station and request the information and file a complaint.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    So following State Law is "Optional" for them and "Mandatory for us". Sounds like someone there needs a refresher course. Perhaps a complaint to the Prosecutor's office? Maybe State AG?
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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sempercarry View Post
    Also, I had my recorder running during this whole thing but it magicly decided to stop recording and delete the recorded data until just before they gave me my stuff back.
    So they deleted the incriminating evidence? Sounds like you need one or both of these:

    http://qik.com/
    http://www.google.com/products/catal...ed=0CDgQ8wIwAw

  11. #11
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I'm about as far out of town as I can be regarding this, but from reading the description of the event I see a few avenues for trying to deal with what happened. Also FOIA all radio and telephone traffic between the front area and the agencies of the personnel that responded. FOIA all written reports of the incident, including follow-up and dispositional reports, logbook entries, and especially each LEOs personal notebook/fieldbook entries. The absence of any one of those, let alone all/most of them, will be even more damaging than anything they might have actually written, if you follow my thinking.

    First, I agree that FOIA requests need to be submitted before anything happens to any video recordings of the area.

    Second, formal written complaints need to be submitted to the Internal Affars divisions of both agencies, and another formal written complaint to the Chief Judge, presuming that he is the one in charge of running the courthouse and setting the rules for bailiffs.

    Third, after documenting the damage to your handgun and obtaining written estimates from at least two gunsmiths for the cost of repairs you should submit a tort claim for the damages. Depending on who dropped it will determine who you submit the claim to. If it was someone acting as a bailiff you submit it to the court. If they were there as LEO you submit it to their agency.

    Fourth, lawyer up and discuss submitting state civil rights violation claims. Yes, you could go 18 USC 1983/84 but why incurr the expense and time when you can probably get better and faster results from a state court?

    Lastly (for now) submit a petition for a Writ of Mandamus to have the folks at the entrance do what they are supposed to regarding firearm storage. not only does it give you extra tort claims when they violate the provisions of the writ, it places them in criminal and civil contempt of court which I'm pretty sure will not make the issuing judge very happy.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    R.C.W search ???

    Search through the R.C.W. But i am sure someplace there is reference to the courts being physically responsible for your weapon if it is damaged. Even without lock boxes, the on site representatives (sheriffs that took your weapon) are responsible for it's condition while in their posession. It happened inside the building yes? If they scratched or dinged your weapon, make them buy you a new one (or have it refinished) at their expense (on top of suing them for civil liberties/rights infractions). If you pursue legal or financial damages against them, be sure to include this, i think it would send a clear message. Maybe consider separate civil damages to get the gun fixed against the individual officer that tossed your sidearm carelessly on the ground. I got stopped for my rice rocket Honda, my bad (i didn't have my wallet -oops), the WSP officer was very polite, took my sidearms and put them on his car VERY carefully, he commented it was a very nice 1911 and he didn't want to scratch it because he would have to pay for it. He let me go without ticket (after putting it in my trunk) and asked me to go home get my wallet - very nice - But point being, he knew he was financially responsible (personally) to any damages to my personal property incurred.

    - Hold them personally and individually responsible too, not just as a unit.

    Food for thought.

    Bat
    Last edited by Batousaii; 10-28-2011 at 01:00 PM. Reason: Grummer and Speeling.
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    Regular Member badkarma's Avatar
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    topcsheriff@co.pierce.wa.us,
    pcassgncnsel@co.pierce.wa.us,
    pcexecutive@co.pierce.wa.us

    dateFri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:05 AM
    subjectLock Boxes are required


    Again PC has failed to follow the law. As documented in the following post(Open Carry in PC), PC failed to provide a lock box at their Civil/Infraction Division (Hosmer). This is in violation of RCW 9.41.300 which states the following

    " In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building."

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.300

    This behaviour is unacceptable by our Law Enforcement Officials and needs to be dealt with immediately.

    Concerned Open Carry Advocate

  14. #14
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Seems things have escalated at this location.
    First is your recording device "digital" ? if it is then it is possible to recover what was erased as long as you have not recorded over it.
    Second on any Public Records Request one needs to be specific as some will try and wiggle out of providing all the information.
    There will be a report, written and radio recording if they ran your serial number.

    Of course there are different ways to skin a cat in how you proceed ahead.
    Contacting the Police Chief, Mayor or City Council, State Representative or an Attorney for violating your 4th Amendment rights or all.

    RCW 9.41.300(10) Any person violating subsection (1) of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

    RCW 9.41.300(1)(b) In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building.

    The local judicial authority shall designate and clearly mark those areas where weapons are prohibited, and shall post notices at each entrance to the building of the prohibition against weapons in the restricted areas;
    From what you described you did not object or announce that you are not giving consent for them to search your person or your firearms serial number with out RAS. Though this still may fall into the ruling St.John v Alamogordo Police where the Judge removed protections covering the officers who violated his rights and stating that it is their job to know.

    I do feel one can object with out being adversarial.
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    Regular Member sempercarry's Avatar
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    Holy responses!! I appreciate the quick replies. Ok....a few things off the bat. My pistol was dropped onto the concrete but there is no noticable damage. The recording was digital. It is a function of my MP3 player. I was so taken back that the police were there harassing me after I requested their presence, that all that I know about dealing with police went out the window. I did not say "I don't consent to search" but givin my demeanor they could not possibly think I wanted to be patted down. I did forget to mention that I got my dealings with the security gaurd in the building on tape. This is significiant because of how I was talking to them and how the police said I was adversarial and combative...which I was not. I will check to see if there are any cameras at the court today. It would be interesting to see if it was the police who deleted my recording. I am 99.9% sure it was recording at the end of my conversations with the guards. What gets me is that it recorded the moment he gave me back my backpack and my whole ride home but not the interaction. To much of a coincidence. I will get to work. Thanks again for the help.

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    Regular Member sempercarry's Avatar
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    Ok...busy day today. There are no cameras at the court house on 96th...dead end there. Went downtown to LESA to get a police report...they didn't make one even though they detained me. Filled out paper work to get the call and the radio traffic from that incident. Decided to go across the street and check out the legal library at the courthouse. Got that one on camera....still wanted ID or CPL even though I was OC....I was denied entry due to lack of ID. The office saw my camera before we started talking. After it was off and I was walking out he came up to me and asked me if it was recording. I told him that it is off now.

    Deputy- The lense was open when we were talking
    Me-yes
    Deputy-was it recording then?
    Me- why?
    Deputy- I want to know, show it to me
    Me- Am I being detained
    Deputy-No, you're free to go.....don't come back today.

    video will be up soon as will audio of pierce county court security interactions.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sempercarry View Post
    Ok...busy day today. There are no cameras at the court house on 96th...dead end there. Went downtown to LESA to get a police report...they didn't make one even though they detained me. Filled out paper work to get the call and the radio traffic from that incident. Decided to go across the street and check out the legal library at the courthouse. Got that one on camera....still wanted ID or CPL even though I was OC....I was denied entry due to lack of ID. The office saw my camera before we started talking. After it was off and I was walking out he came up to me and asked me if it was recording. I told him that it is off now.

    Deputy- The lense was open when we were talking
    Me-yes
    Deputy-was it recording then?
    Me- why?
    Deputy- I want to know, show it to me
    Me- Am I being detained
    Deputy-No, you're free to go.....don't come back today.

    video will be up soon as will audio of pierce county court security interactions.
    Good for jumping on this. Bad deputy for harrassing you. And why did you not record that little incident. He just threatened you? If I am told not to come back, I am coming back. What a statist tool. Maybe he wanted to know if you were recording so as to whether or not be honest in his report.

    "The lense was open while we were talking"

    "So?"

    I personally would post all public employees names who engage in these illegal and tactics. Would be interesting too to search their names and see if others in your area have had other problems. It is how I found a few "Brady" (police who committed the felony of perjury yet still have their jobs) cops in my area.

    Interesting, most of those who are strong supporters of LEO again stay out of another thread where their comrades have banded together to trample a citizens rights. Where is your public statements of outrage of this? Or is this just "another isolated" incident? Oh and by the way, the cops wouldn't be acting this way if it wasn't with support from their prosecutor who acts as their legal adviser. They feel they have the power to do what they want because there will be no prosecution of them. Just ask Ian Birk.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 10-29-2011 at 09:53 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  18. #18
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sempercarry View Post
    Ok...busy day today. There are no cameras at the court house on 96th...dead end there. Went downtown to LESA to get a police report...they didn't make one even though they detained me. Filled out paper work to get the call and the radio traffic from that incident. Decided to go across the street and check out the legal library at the courthouse. Got that one on camera....still wanted ID or CPL even though I was OC....I was denied entry due to lack of ID. The office saw my camera before we started talking. After it was off and I was walking out he came up to me and asked me if it was recording. I told him that it is off now.

    Deputy- The lense was open when we were talking
    Me-yes
    Deputy-was it recording then?
    Me- why?
    Deputy- I want to know, show it to me
    Me- Am I being detained
    Deputy-No, you're free to go.....don't come back today.

    video will be up soon as will audio of pierce county court security interactions.

    There is no expectation of privacy in public. record away.

  19. #19
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    There is no expectation of privacy in public. record away.
    There is also no expectation of privacy in a public official acting in his public duties...record away.

    Johnson vs. Sequim
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  20. #20
    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    There is also no expectation of privacy in a public official acting in his public duties...record away.



    Johnson vs. Sequim

    Are we really gonna get into this argument again?

    If a reasonable person would believe that the conversation is intended to be private, it's against the law to record, and you'll most likely be prosecuted for it.


    Johnson V Sequim occurred IN PUBLIC.

    State V Flora occurred IN PUBLIC.



    From the same Johnson v sequim..

    To determine whether a conversation is
    private, Washington courts “consider the intent or reasonable
    expectations of the participants as manifested by the facts and
    circumstances of each case.” Id. “A person’s right to keep private
    his affairs including his conversation depends on whether
    he has a reasonable expectation of privacy at the time and
    under the circumstances involved.” State v. Bonilla, 598 P.2d
    783, 785-86 (Wash. Ct. App. 1979) (citing Jeffers v. City of
    Seattle, 597 P.2d 899, 907 (Wash. Ct. App. 1979)).

    and here's the key phrase...

    First, the Privacy Act does not criminalize the recording
    of a “police officer in the performance of an official function
    on a public thoroughfare.”
    and state v flora

    “public
    officers performing an official function on a public thoroughfare
    in the presence of a third party and within the sight
    and hearing of passersby [do not] enjoy a privacy interest
    which they may assert under the statute”

  21. #21
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    TechnoWeenie,

    Surely you aren't claiming that the public entrance to the County-City building, or the public sidewalk in front of it, are not "in public"?

  22. #22
    Regular Member sempercarry's Avatar
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    Vid is up

    http://youtu.be/a6SWfPpWNhg

    recording with PCDC on 96th in a bit.

  23. #23
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    Other angle on getting the police report re: your ticket

    Most states don't allow FOI requests to be used as a means of discovery in a case. You'll have to enter your not guilty plea and then request all information about your case in a discovery request. Discovery is better for you anyway, because they can't hide behind the "ongoing case" excuse they use to deny FOI requests. Make sure you request everything - all written reports, recordings, the officer's training certificates, maintenance requests for the radar/laser unit (if applicable), etc.

    The rest of the public building encounter...well, you'll be stuck with FOI on that, as it didn't result in a case.

    Best,

    DCR

  24. #24
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sempercarry View Post
    Vid is up

    http://youtu.be/a6SWfPpWNhg

    recording with PCDC on 96th in a bit.
    Did I hear this correctly, No Holster, No Ammunition, No Accessories for the Handgun when returning to check your firearm with Identification?
    Interesting!
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Did I hear this correctly, No Holster, No Ammunition, No Accessories for the Handgun when returning to check your firearm with Identification?
    Interesting!
    Yep, I heard that as well. So, you can't have a holster, magazines, ammunition, accesseories WHEN YOU BRING IN YOU HANDGUN TO CHECK IT IN? What are you expected to do-- stick in into your waistband with no magazine and ammo?
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

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