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Thread: Is This A Concealed Weapon Violation On Private Property W/O A CCW License?

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Question Is This A Concealed Weapon Violation On Private Property W/O A CCW License?

    On November 1st ACT 35 goes into full effect. With the law in effect a person may carry a concealed weapon (four different types to be exact) on their own property without a license. I've been thinking of this lately with all the back and forth we have been having on "Is it or isn't it" a concealed weapon violation I.A.W. 941.23 if/when we open carry in a vehicle on the public roadways.

    If I am in my driveway or even in my garage wearing my gun openly and I get IN my vehicle am I violating 941.23? Keep in mind I am asking about AFTER 1NOV2011 not before. Since I am on private property I do not see how this could be a violation of 941.23 (assuming I have no Wisconsin concealed carry license). I can go further and say "With garage door open versus closed am I violating 941.23?".

    And what if I am carrying CONCEALED on my own property and get in my vehicle in my driveway or in my vehicle in my garage?

    And one last thing: Isn't my vehicle my PROPERTY? If so then wouldn't I fall within the scope of ACT 35 for carrying a concealed weapon legally on my own property?
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

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    If you are on your property, it doesn't matter if you are in your vehicle or not. Also, I believe you can carry concealed on your own private property now? I don't think ACT 35 changed anything with that?

    As for your vehicle being your property. You are mixing 2 different definitions of property.

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    Regular Member McNutty's Avatar
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    941.23(e) specifically allows concealed carry without a license for

    An individual who carries a concealed and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (j), in his or her own dwelling
    or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies.
    If you are in your dwelling, place of business or land, you should be okay.

    Nice try but while your vehicle is tangible, personal property; it is not real property such as your land or dwelling.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    No to the driving off of your property in your vehicle but you should be cool on your property.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    [snip]Also, I believe you can carry concealed on your own private property now? I don't think ACT 35 changed anything with that?[/snip]
    Before, there was only case law (State v. Hamdan), that basically would keep DA's from prosecuting for it but it was still illegal by statute. Basically, concealing in your home or business outweighed the states interests in exercising it's police power in those specific situations.

    Act 35 makes it statutorily legal to conceal on your own property or place of business so we don't need to rely on the discretion of officers or the DA.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 10-28-2011 at 04:26 PM.
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    If you are on your property, it doesn't matter if you are in your vehicle or not. Also, I believe you can carry concealed on your own private property now? I don't think ACT 35 changed anything with that?

    As for your vehicle being your property. You are mixing 2 different definitions of property.
    Act 35-2011 takes that case law and puts that into statute.
    Last edited by BROKENSPROKET; 10-28-2011 at 04:39 PM.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    YOUR property in which you reside, whether you own, rent, or lease. For example, if your brother(if you have one) were to CC on your property without residing their, he would be in violation, unless the deed or lease had his name on it. Without a license that is.

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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    So what if you actually lived in your car...?????

    Would not that make it your dwelling.....

    Just kidding.....

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    What if your dwelling is an RV? I have a friend who lives full time in his Camper.

    Is it a vehicle (it's on wheels capable of driving down the road) or his domicile?
    Last edited by xd shooter; 10-28-2011 at 05:17 PM.

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    Just a general statement, for all to consider:

    When learning, remembering and trying to follow these statutes, it is pretty important to be precise and accurate, just as it is in handling and firing a gun.

    The law says "in his or her own dwelling or place of business"

    That is more limited than... a building I own.

    or... private property.

    or... my garage.

    Picking nits, is the job of LEO, lawyers, judges. We need to avoid becoming victims of being on the wrong side of the details.
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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    Just a general statement, for all to consider:

    When learning, remembering and trying to follow these statutes, it is pretty important to be precise and accurate, just as it is in handling and firing a gun.

    The law says "in his or her own dwelling or place of business"

    That is more limited than... a building I own.

    or... private property.

    or... my garage.

    Picking nits, is the job of LEO, lawyers, judges. We need to avoid becoming victims of being on the wrong side of the details.
    It sure is important to be accurate, so, by all means please read the statute:

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/201...ed/acts/35.pdf

    941.23 (2) (e) An individual who carries a concealed
    and dangerous weapon, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (j), in
    his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land
    that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies.
    This is why OCDO has a cite to authority rule. ACT 35 was cited above, I just went through the work to find the part you are referring to.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 10-28-2011 at 05:40 PM.
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    You could have just copied the cite from post #3
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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E6chevron View Post
    You could have just copied the cite from post #3
    Guess I could have.......LOL


    So why the confusion then, with your post? It confused me anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwguy11 View Post
    Also, I believe you can carry concealed on your own private property now? I don't think ACT 35 changed anything with that?
    It actually changed a lot. After the Hamdan opinion as a practical matter one could carry on one's property and place of business because you were unlikely to be prosecuted for it. However it was technically illegal to have a concealed weapon in those places unless you were able to meet a number of tests that the court outlined in that decision. One such test was that concealment had to be the only practical option. Act 35 removed the need for meeting such tests and basically just said that if you're at least 18 and can legally possess the weapon, you can conceal it if you wish in those places.

    That's my take on it.
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    I believe that is an incorrect interpretation

    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    YOUR property in which you reside, whether you own, rent, or lease. For example, if your brother(if you have one) were to CC on your property without residing their, he would be in violation, unless the deed or lease had his name on it. Without a license that is.
    If you are legally on private property, I believe that you could legally conceal a weapon while there, even if your name was not on the lease or title. You are legally occupying the land if you are legally there. I believe that a guest can legally conceal a weapon on the private property on which he is a guest.

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    CCW on own property

    You guys need to read the law the way it was written it clearly states that....

    Are there places I may carry a concealed weapon even without a CCW license?
    Yes. A person may carry a concealed weapon, including an electric weapon, in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies, with or without a CCW license. Wis. Stat. § 941.23(2)(e); Wis. Stat. § 941.295(2)(d)2.

    to me that is pretty clear.....and oc in a car is illegal until you get your permit. if you attach it to ur hip or dash it is within reach and thus a vioaltion! it has to be out of reach!

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McNutty View Post
    941.23(e) specifically allows concealed carry without a license for



    If you are in your dwelling, place of business or land, you should be okay.

    Nice try but while your vehicle is tangible, personal property; it is not real property such as your land or dwelling.
    whats the definition of 'real property'....one can get a mortgage for a camper/rv/travel trailer...not sure if that would make it qualify as 'real' or not..

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorin21 View Post
    You guys need to read the law the way it was written it clearly states that....

    Are there places I may carry a concealed weapon even without a CCW license?
    Yes. A person may carry a concealed weapon, including an electric weapon, in his or her own dwelling or place of business or on land that he or she owns, leases, or legally occupies, with or without a CCW license. Wis. Stat. § 941.23(2)(e); Wis. Stat. § 941.295(2)(d)2.

    to me that is pretty clear.....and oc in a car is illegal until you get your permit. if you attach it to ur hip or dash it is within reach and thus a vioaltion! it has to be out of reach!
    You can not equate a FAQ to the "law" which is the text of WI Statutes. You quoted the FAQ and should cite the Statute instead. It it is not hidden, it is not concealed. If it is on the dash, it is not hidden.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 10-29-2011 at 02:40 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran rcawdor57's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Let's Think About This...

    "to me that is pretty clear.....and oc in a car is illegal until you get your permit. if you attach it to ur hip or dash it is within reach and thus a vioaltion! it has to be out of reach!"

    Not to start the "We can open carry in a vehicle on or after 1NOV2011 without a license debate"...but...

    There is clear evidence in ACT 35 that the intent of the legislature is that a person CAN legally open carry in a vehicle without a license. Other wise how can we legally be able to place, possess, or transport a firearm....load a firearm in a vehicle...see below:

    167.31 (2) (b) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person
    may place, possess, or transport a firearm, bow, or
    crossbow in or on a vehicle, unless the firearm is a handgun,
    as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (bm), unless the firearm
    is unloaded and encased, or unless the bow or crossbow
    is unstrung or is enclosed in a carrying case.
    SECTION 32. 167.31 (2) (c) of the statutes is amended
    to read:
    167.31 (2) (c) Except as provided in sub. (4), no person
    may load a firearm, other than a handgun, as defined
    in s. 175.60 (1) (bm), in a vehicle or discharge a firearm
    or shoot a bolt or an arrow from a bow or crossbow in or
    from a vehicle.

    But to be on the safe side due to the GFSZ's everywhere a person would still need a valid concealed carry license to "pass through" those zones so...I'll wait for mine.

    On the other hand on 1NOV2011 the law DOES change quite a bit about transporting a handgun. I will have my handgun loaded, chambered and ready to go in it's case on the seat next to me. It does NOT have to be "out of reach". Even before the changes in transporting a handgun it did not have to be out of reach, only unloaded with no magazine installed in the firearm.
    “The Constitution shall never be construed... to prevent the People of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams

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    Regular Member McNutty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    whats the definition of 'real property'....one can get a mortgage for a camper/rv/travel trailer...not sure if that would make it qualify as 'real' or not..
    Real property is going to be land and/or structures on that land. Everyone kept referring to being able to cc on or in their property.

    The statute specifically refers to your land, dwelling of place of business. I think that is pretty clear - using general terms like "my property" and trying to find gray areas is only going to mislead people.

    Generally your RV or trailer is going to be considered motor vehicle and I would think the statutes pertaining to transport of a firearm in a vehicle would apply to that situation. You certainly have less legal protections in a vehicle than you do in your own home. I think for a trailer to truly be considered your dwelling - for example, requiring the police to obtain a warrant based on probable cause prior to searching - it would need to be a travel trailer that is basically up on blocks in a trailer park and not readily moveable. In that case it is pretty much a fairly permanent structure on the land.
    Last edited by McNutty; 10-29-2011 at 11:15 PM.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    There was a case in another state.....Louisiana?......anyway, the guy won in court over a park gun ban because his tent was ruled as his temporary home. I wish I could remember the case and I'd search it up if I wasn't on my phone.

    Anyway, try searching for posts by cowboyridn.....he wanted to start a similar suit against state park bans in WI. He posted about the case. Maybe it's of interest concerning the RV question.
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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McNutty View Post
    Real property is going to be land and/or structures on that land. Everyone kept referring to being able to cc on or in their property.

    The statute specifically refers to your land, dwelling of place of business. I think that is pretty clear - using general terms like "my property" and trying to find gray areas is only going to mislead people.

    Generally your RV or trailer is going to be considered motor vehicle and I would think the statutes pertaining to transport of a firearm in a vehicle would apply to that situation. You certainly have less legal protections in a vehicle than you do in your own home. I think for a trailer to truly be considered your dwelling - for example, requiring the police to obtain a warrant based on probable cause prior to searching - it would need to be a travel trailer that is basically up on blocks in a trailer park and not readily moveable. In that case it is pretty much a fairly permanent structure on the land.

    If I can live in it, its a dwelling is it not? can you cite for me anyplace that states 'up on blocks' or 'not readily moveable' is requisite for something to be called a dwelling...

    I could full-time live in my Airstream at anytime...its not a motor vehicle, but is is registered with the DMV as a 'motor home'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    You can not equate a FAQ to the "law" which is the text of WI Statutes. You quoted the FAQ and should cite the Statute instead. It it is not hidden, it is not concealed. If it is on the dash, it is not hidden.
    Wis. Stat. § 941.23(2)(e); Wis. Stat. § 941.295(2)(d)2.-are these not stautes.......i get what you guys are all saying but how can you get away with within reach???? like i said not trying to argue but how can u go against within reach?????

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorin21 View Post
    Wis. Stat. § 941.23(2)(e); Wis. Stat. § 941.295(2)(d)2.-are these not stautes.......i get what you guys are all saying but how can you get away with within reach???? like i said not trying to argue but how can u go against within reach?????
    I suggest that you read the whole statute. The 2 you cited above are exceptions which allow you to carry concealed on your land and have nothing to vehicle carry.
    There is no "within reach" law. It does not exist.
    Where within reach comes into play is the 3 components needed in order to cite you for concealed carry of a dangerous weapon.
    You must know it is there, it must be hidden and it must be within your reach in order for you to be cited. This comes from case law and is part of the annotations in the Statutes.
    Take the little paper DNR guidelines book and look up the actual Statutes and Administrative code for each of these "rules". That paper book has zero authority of enforcement and is meant as a list of general guidelines for people to follow in order to stay out of trouble. If you get a DNR ticket it would list the actual Code or Statute and not the guideline book page.
    Here are links to the Statutes and DNR Code..
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/prefaces/toc
    .
    .
    http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/code/nr/nr010.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    I suggest that you read the whole statute. The 2 you cited above are exceptions which allow you to carry concealed on your land and have nothing to vehicle carry.
    There is no "within reach" law. It does not exist.
    Where within reach comes into play is the 3 components needed in order to cite you for concealed carry of a dangerous weapon.
    You must know it is there, it must be hidden and it must be within your reach in order for you to be cited. This comes from case law and is part of the annotations in the Statutes.
    Take the little paper DNR guidelines book and look up the actual Statutes and Administrative code for each of these "rules". That paper book has zero authority of enforcement and is meant as a list of general guidelines for people to follow in order to stay out of trouble. If you get a DNR ticket it would list the actual Code or Statute and not the guideline book page.
    Here are links to the Statutes and DNR Code..
    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/prefaces/toc
    .
    .
    http://www.legis.state.wi.us/rsb/code/nr/nr010.pdf
    thanks for the links......i just wanna be sure about everything before i go do it thats all

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROKENSPROKET View Post
    Act 35-2011 takes that case law and puts that into statute.
    I understand now, thank you.

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