A hard lesson to learn

Max · Oct 30, 2011

Captain Nemo said:
Face reality. They didn't find him beat up and bloody. He was unscathed. Can't make the situation into what it wasn't. In Wisconsin if you are going to plead self-defense after taking the life of another human by use of a firearm you had either have visible injuries and your victim best have powder burns on him/her. Is that right or wrong? It doesn't matter. That's the way it is. Something to remember when you walk around with a "widow maker" in your pocket. Wisconson courts take the taking of a human life very seriously. As it should. Another thing to remember. As barbaric as it sounds if that moment of push comes to shove happens and there is no other course but to use deadly force don't leave a wounded victim. As impartial as any jury professes to be the sight of a paralyzed victim in a wheelchair is going to have an emotional affect. Juries are made of humans. In Wisconsin a person's trial does not begin after he/she is arrested. It begins at the moment you pull the trigger.

Captain, I am fully aware that Jesus was not found bloodied. The point I was trying to make, and so stated, was that it was not the 911 call that screwed Jesus, it was the events prior to it that did that. Also your comment of, "...don't leave a wounded victim." is quite disturbing. Are you suggesting delivering a coup de gras to a wounded assailant? If that assailant no longer poses a threat, that would be murder. Just ask the Oklahoma pharmacist who did as you suggested and is now serving a life sentence.
http://newsok.com/ersland-gets-life...uspend-all-of-prison-sentence/article/3584664

McX · Oct 30, 2011

i beleive the outcome of the trial would have, could have been different had it been delayed until the new laws were in place.

Interceptor_Knight · Oct 30, 2011

Captain Nemo said:
...As barbaric as it sounds if that moment of push comes to shove happens and there is no other course but to use deadly force don't leave a wounded victim. .....

That is the most disturbing thing I have seen posed in a while. Possibly ever on this board.
You are suggesting cold blooded murder. You are suggesting 1st-Degree Intentional Homicide instead of the justifyable use of deadly force.
If you are trying to do anything but stop the threat you are committing murder. I believe that once the threat is over, you should render aid to the person you just shot if it is practical and safe.

Interceptor_Knight · Oct 30, 2011

McX said:
i beleive the outcome of the trial would have, could have been different had it been delayed until the new laws were in place.

There are no new laws being proposed which would allow a free fire zone. No Wild West laws are being proposed.

donny · Oct 30, 2011

Crack me up. The guy was wrong. The shoot was bad. He committed a crime, justice prevailed, case closed. I hope they lock him up for many years.

Max · Oct 30, 2011

donny said:
Crack me up. The guy was wrong. The shoot was bad. He committed a crime, justice prevailed, case closed. I hope they lock him up for many years.

Donny, exactly what cracks you up? I fail to find any humor in any of this.

shernandez · Oct 30, 2011

Originally Posted by Captain Nemo
...As barbaric as it sounds if that moment of push comes to shove happens and there is no other course but to use deadly force don't leave a wounded victim. .....

Interceptor_Knight said:
That is the most disturbing thing I have seen posed in a while. Possibly ever on this board.
You are suggesting cold blooded murder. You are suggesting 1st-Degree Intentional Homicide instead of the justifyable use of deadly force.
If you are trying to do anything but stop the threat you are committing murder. I believe that once the threat is over, you should render aid to the person you just shot if it is practical and safe.

I'm going with Interceptor on this one. Nemo, what would make you say something like that?

donny · Oct 30, 2011

Max said:
Donny, exactly what cracks you up? I fail to find any humor in any of this.

It cracks me up that some here appear to be defending the guy or at least wishing he hadn't been convicted based on his history of being an OCer when in reality he is no different than anyone whose intentionally improper use of a firearm resulted in needless loss of life.

Max · Oct 30, 2011

donny said:
It cracks me up that some here appear to be defending the guy or at least wishing he hadn't been convicted based on his history of being an OCer when in reality he is no different than anyone whose intentionally improper use of a firearm resulted in needless loss of life.

Donny, many here, me included, know Jesus. He is a very intelligent, soft spoken, likable individual. We happened to meet him via the open carry movement here Wisconsin, but had we met him because we all collected stamps nothing would change. It is not because he was an OC proponent that made him different to us but the fact that we know him and some of his family. It is human nature to not want to see someone you like caught up in a tragedy even if by their own making. You want to defend your friends and you do not want to see any of them go to prison. That's human nature, not humor.

donny · Oct 30, 2011

Hmmm. You've made a valid point I hadn't considered. Thanks for the lesson...

Grapeshot · Oct 30, 2011

Captain Nemo said:
.....snip.... As barbaric as it sounds if that moment of push comes to shove happens and there is no other course but to use deadly force don't leave a wounded victim. .......

Unacceptable - totally and irrevocably so. Not only is this in violation of OCDO rules (encouraging others to violate the law) but it is morally repugnant. Too it feeds the anti POV that we wish to terminate people, not the event.

Please consider the impact of your words more carefully.

Look at the results of one that followed this dictum:
http://forums.bowhunting.com/showth...obber-found-guilty-of-murder.-People-outraged.

Max · Oct 30, 2011

donny said:
Hmmm. You've made a valid point I hadn't considered. Thanks for the lesson...

No problem Donny. We all learn from one another.

Support The 2nd · Oct 30, 2011

There's been a shooting, send the ambulance and the police

There's been a shooting, send the ambulance and the police. That's all I'll tell 911. Repeat it until the authorities arrive, nothing more.

Once the authorities arrive, "I was attacked, I need a lawyer, I need to go to the hospital." That's it, nothing else. They won't even get my name until I have a lawyer.

Don't talk to the doctor either, "I don't feel good, heart doesn't feel right."

I won't say anything else at all until I have a lawyer. Even if they lock me up, NOTHING until I have a lawyer.

IF we had a good castle doctrine, that would help but I wouldn't expect anything like that from the current "privilege" politicians.

Max · Oct 30, 2011

Support The 2nd said:
There's been a shooting, send the ambulance and the police. That's all I'll tell 911. Repeat it until the authorities arrive, nothing more.

Once the authorities arrive, "I was attacked, I need a lawyer, I need to go to the hospital." That's it, nothing else. They won't even get my name until I have a lawyer.

Don't talk to the doctor either, "I don't feel good, heart doesn't feel right."

I won't say anything else at all until I have a lawyer. Even if they lock me up, NOTHING until I have a lawyer.

IF we had a good castle doctrine, that would help but I wouldn't expect anything like that from the current "privilege" politicians.

I suggest you take Massad Ayoob's "MAG-20 Classroom" course. It will do wonders in keeping you alive and out of prison.

JJC · Oct 31, 2011

McX said:
i beleive the outcome of the trial would have, could have been different had it been delayed until the new laws were in place.

New laws wouldn't have mattered. The rules of trial would have been decided upon the laws in effect at the time of the shooting.

JJC

Captain Nemo · Oct 31, 2011

Every self defense firearms course I have attended teaches that if a situation arises that requires use of deadly force you fire two or three quick shots to the thorasic cavity with a caliber of bullet sufficient so that it destroys the central nervous system and causes immediate incapacitation. In other words shoot to kill. I have not attended one class that advocates shooting to wound and only enough to diffuse the situation. In fact most people are such lousy shots that in the heat of battle if they tried to only wound a person they would miss them entirely. I am not advocating that if a person wounds a person they should deliver a coup de gras. I am insulted by that very suggestion. Self defense with a firearm is a dirty business. It is not a Summer church social. In Wisconsin if you kill someone with a firearm and claim self defense you had best be able to show some physical evidence or strong proof you were in imminent danger. The shooting had best be within 8 to 10 feet distance or you will have questions to prove in regards to imminent. Under those circumstances if you follow the dictates of your self-defense instructions and are of any reasonable proficiency your victim will be dead and not contribute furthur to your misery by diluting your defense with emotional impact on a jury. I am not talking about shooting at someone 20 - 25 feet away or in a car in a dark alley. I am talking about a situation where push has come to shove and it is you or he. If those words disturb you, I apologize.

Grapeshot · Oct 31, 2011

Captain Nemo said:
Every self defense firearms course I have attended teaches that if a situation arises that requires use of deadly force you fire two or three quick shots to the thorasic cavity with a caliber of bullet sufficient so that it destroys the central nervous system and causes immediate incapacitation. In other words shoot to kill. I have not attended one class that advocates shooting to wound and only enough to diffuse the situation. In fact most people are such lousy shots that in the heat of battle if they tried to only wound a person they would miss them entirely. I am not advocating that if a person wounds a person they should deliver a coup de gras. I am insulted by that very suggestion. Self defense with a firearm is a dirty business. It is not a Summer church social. In Wisconsin if you kill someone with a firearm and claim self defense you had best be able to show some physical evidence or strong proof you were in imminent danger. The shooting had best be within 8 to 10 feet distance or you will have questions to prove in regards to imminent. Under those circumstances if you follow the dictates of your self-defense instructions and are of any reasonable proficiency your victim will be dead and not contribute furthur to your misery by diluting your defense with emotional impact on a jury. I am not talking about shooting at someone 20 - 25 feet away or in a car in a dark alley. I am talking about a situation where push has come to shove and it is you or he. If those words disturb you, I apologize.

Actually the only shots that render immediate incapacitation are spinal and cranial - center of mass/thoracic cavity accomplish that end through loss of hydraulic pressure, bleed out. Shock to the nervous system will frequently be your friend, but not always soon enough to offer a full measure of immediate protection.

I also know of no instructor/class that teaches "shoot to wound"; although Va. DOC did at one time.

What is advocated here on OCDO and taught by most instructors is "Shot to Stop." The most effective placement of such shot(s) will very possibly result in the demise of the BG, but the purpose/intent was to STOP them - words are important.

In Virginia, if you shoot someone and thereby cause their death, you have committed murder/homicide. In order to win you must admit to that and then plead "justifiable" or "excusable." As User/Dan Hawes (for whom I have much respect) has said (paraphrasing) "Yep, I sure did kill that SOB - only effective means I had to stop him from killing me."

BTW - While most defensive use of handguns occurs at under 5', I am extremely aware of the 20' rule. http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2008/12/28/gunfights-happen-up-closeexcept-when-they-dont/

Max · Oct 31, 2011

Agree with everything you said Grapeshot plus I would add the "Tueller Drill". Officer Tueller proved an average man can traverse a distance of 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. A man with a contact weapon is indeed an imminent threat at 21 feet especially if your gun is still holstered.

McNutty · Oct 31, 2011

Grapeshot said:
What is advocated here on OCDO and taught by most instructors is "Shot to Stop." The most effective placement of such shot(s) will very possibly result in the demise of the BG, but the purpose/intent was to STOP them - words are important.

Agree 100% - words are critically important. I'd much rather have the jury hear that I told the police that "I shot to stop his attack" as opposed to "yeah, I shot to kill." The difference in those statements goes a long way in defining who is the BG in the situation.

eleuthera · Nov 7, 2011

Reminds me of a court case my dad told me about. BG tries to mug a man, but the man beats the BG up pretty good. BG sues saying that the man used excessive force. In court, the BG's attorney asks "Sir, just how hard did you hit my client?" and the man replied "like my life depended on it." Good guy wins the case.

I'd like to point out to everyone that your words here are likely admissible in court and any rhetoric indicating that you're a fan of excessive force could very well come back to haunt you (not pointing fingers, indeed it seems like some previous comments in this thread were misunderstood).

On the real topic: Jesus G. is a good guy, a patriot, a Christian, and a friend. It pains me to see him this situation, and in all honesty, given that he didn't testify on his own behalf I think he likely did something that night that he didn't have to do, and greatly regrets today. But it's easy to be a monday morning armchair quarterback.

I'm sure he'd appreciate any love you guys can send his way, and hopefully the sentencing won't be awful.

Always remember, my friends: "but for the grace of God, there go I."

A hard lesson to learn

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