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Thread: Can I take a look at your ID Sir ????

  1. #1
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    Can I take a look at your ID Sir ????

    Can someone please direct me to the proper law that states an ID does not have to be shown unless your being charged with a crime or arrested. I guess there is a little confusion on that subject. I have a local Police chief that I have been going over gun laws with and I've been able to prove all the laws so far. But this one , He says that because of the homeland security act that if an ID is not presented that he can detain for up to 72 hours to check Identity to confirm it's not a terrorist. Can anyone Confirm or hopefully direct me to the right place that calls BS on this. So far I'm ahead with all the laws with him. ( basically made him look like a total dumb @$$ ) But this one through me for a loop. Any help would be great.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Why not ask him to show you that portion of the law?
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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter524 View Post
    Can someone please direct me to the proper law that states an ID does not have to be shown unless your being charged with a crime or arrested. I guess there is a little confusion on that subject. I have a local Police chief that I have been going over gun laws with and I've been able to prove all the laws so far. But this one , He says that because of the homeland security act that if an ID is not presented that he can detain for up to 72 hours to check Identity to confirm it's not a terrorist. Can anyone Confirm or hopefully direct me to the right place that calls BS on this. So far I'm ahead with all the laws with him. ( basically made him look like a total dumb @$$ ) But this one through me for a loop. Any help would be great.
    Here you go:
    It is well established under Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 20 L. Ed. 2d 889, 88 S. [**5] Ct. 1868 (1968), that police may make a brief investigatory stop of a person when they have a "reasonable suspicion that criminal activity may be afoot." See also, State v. Adell, 716 S.W.2d 469, 471 (Mo. App. 1986). Where such suspicion is present, the police may "stop the suspected person, identify themselves as police officers, require the suspect to identify himself, and make reasonable inquiries concerning his activities." Id.

    They need reasonable cause to detain you in order to require ID. We are not in nazi Germany!
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  4. #4
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    ^^ Just to emphasize just walking down the street (even OC-ing) is NOT sufficient RAS to stop and demand ID. The law can ASK for ID though and while doing so, uncover RAS (or fake it enough to satisfy a judge down the road), usually this only happens if you don't keep your trap shut.
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  5. #5
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    ^^ Just to emphasize just walking down the street (even OC-ing) is NOT sufficient RAS to stop and demand ID. The law can ASK for ID though and while doing so, uncover RAS (or fake it enough to satisfy a judge down the road), usually this only happens if you don't keep your trap shut.
    Am I being detained?
    Am I free to go?

    If all else fails, you have the righ to remain silent, anything you say can and will be used against you ina court of law!
    Nothing you say wull be used for your defense, so the first and second question only, then shut up!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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  6. #6
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry v Ohio
    the police may "stop the suspected person, identify themselves as police officers, require the suspect to identify himself, and make reasonable inquiries concerning his activities."
    Which is not the same as showing a gov't-issued photo ID.
    "I'm Jane Smythe & I'm walking that way" should be perfectly sufficient.
    A good reason not to carry an ID card if there's no reason to.

    And the proper question is "why am I being detained?".
    'Cause if you have to ask, you're being detained, & they should tell you why.
    If they slip & tell you you're not being detained, say goodbye & walk away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    Am I being detained?
    Am I free to go?
    I'd add:
    "Oh I am detained, ok, I don't consent to any searches or seizures and I'd like to remain silent without my attorney present."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Why not ask him to show you that portion of the law?
    While we would all prefer that it should be the same as a warrant ("Show the law, or show me your warrant!"), current case law in America doesn't support that. The courts even give great deference to police who believe they have the right to search, even if it turns out later that they didn't.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Just ask Officer Friendly how you can be required to show something that you're not required to have, or to carry?
    If I'm walking around in town and Officer Friendly asks to see my identification I'll tell him that he's welcome to walk back to my car and we can have a look. I hope he has his comfy shoes and has packed a lunch; 'cause I can't always remember where I parked or what car I was driving that day. It could literally take hours to find it.


    The Homeland Security Act of 2002 contains the phrase...
    - "driver('s) license"........... Zero times
    - "identification card".......... Zero times
    - "identity"........................ Four times
    - "identification"................. Nineteen times
    - "identify" ....................... Twenty-seven times

    Exactly none of which have any requirement of the citizen to present identification nor to identify him/herself.


    What should you do?
    I'd say, Call His Bluff. Challenge him to demand your I.D., deny it to him and then challenge him to prove his claim by detaining you. I've found it worked wonderfully when I was having a conversation with a friend who's in law enforcement and he said "I can tell you to leave any place I want and if you don't do it, I'll arrest you for trespassing."
    "So? Go ahead, tell me to leave. I want to see you do what you just claimed."
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    ...
    "Yeah, that's what I thought. You can leave the tip, @$%#@@"
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 10-31-2011 at 12:37 PM.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Folks, remember that while Terry sets the ground rules, many jurisdictions do have "stop and identify" laws on the books that do allow such requests. Check your locality and carefully read the local law to see if it goes beyond Terry. Also remember that a cop can call just about any place a "high crime area" where your presence alone is sufficient to warrant RAS.

    The big question is, do you have to show a specific document, a specific class of document, or is stating your name (and in some places other info) sufficient to meet the law's requirements? Some of us are able to OC without carrying any ID documents and do carry "sterile". I, for one, have done it while leaning up against the vehicle I was recently driving - and being retired I can wait a verrry long time before needing to get back in and drive home. In the meantime the cop usually has to decide to do something much sooner. So far (with one underhanded exception) they have decided to go on about their business elsewhere.

    stay safe.
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    The only stop and id statute in RSMo can be found here:

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C000-099/0840000710.HTM

    Note that it authorizes KC MO police to demand name, address, and where you are going, and requires RAS. I don't know of any other state statutes that would apply. So, there's nothing at the state level outside of KC. You could have local laws for that, but the police chief should know that.

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    Just remember folks that there may be a local ordinance requiring such presentation of ID. Oh, and is everyone forgetting the Patriot Act? That's the one we need to watch being used. Some of your local laws might be here:

    http://www.municode.com/

    Springfield has one. I see part of this becoming to prevent part 4 from happening your State-issued ID would be requested.
    78-36(a)3 and 78-36(a)4
    (3)Refuse to disclose one's legal name to a law enforcement officer upon being lawfully stopped, detained, or arrested by a law enforcement officer.

    (4)Provide, either orally or in written form, a false, fictitious, or counterfeit name, date of birth, or social security number to a law enforcement officer:

    a.When the officer has affected a lawful detention or arrest;
    b.When the officer is entering said information into an official document;
    c.When the officer is using the information in the conduct of an investigation of a crime or ordinance violation; or
    d.For the purpose of avoiding arrest or lawful detention.


    The other thing that everyone tends to forget is that your DL, CCW card, ID card, or any other document issued by a government agency is actually property of the government. I don't like that any more than others.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 11-03-2011 at 10:55 AM.

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Above all carry your recorders and have them running. Be calm, respectful and present a good image to benefit other carriers.

    $.02
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    What was said was that if someone did not ID themselves to him he could arrest and detain them for up to 72 hours to insure they are not a terrorist. and as far as City ord. I currently work for the city and have proof read and rewrote most of them , and it contains nothing . and as far as carry laws , none of those either now !!

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    as far as the detainment he said that was part of the homeland security act. I've researched and found nothing !!

  16. #16
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefighter524 View Post
    as far as the detainment he said that was part of the homeland security act. I've researched and found nothing !!
    Wise man say "Finding citation for law that does not exist, is harder than finding grain of rice at beach."

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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    Just remember folks that there may be a local ordinance requiring such presentation of ID. Oh, and is everyone forgetting the Patriot Act? That's the one we need to watch being used. Some of your local laws might be here:



    (3)Refuse to disclose one's legal name to a law enforcement officer upon being lawfully stopped, detained, or arrested by a law enforcement officer.
    2 mistakes in interpretation.

    1, DISCLOSE NAME, not provide identification card of any sort, it is indeed against the law to lie about it to the police.
    2, LEGAL stop, detainment, or arrest. Kind of stupid to list stop since that is indeed legal detainment but who says ordinance writers need a brain.

    Number 2 ONLY applies if you are being detained which REQUIRES RAS. If asked for identification, not offering it and requesting to know if you are being detained puts it back on the officer, he has to answer that question, it is a very important point of law. He does not have to tell you outright, but if you ask, he may not lie about that, if he says NO, then you are free to go without any further requirements and you should immediately do so.

    If he says YES, you should invoke your right to remain silent, give your name and shut your mouth, it is time for a lawyer to speak for you.

    Since he has identified he has RAS for detainment, it is over, don't even bother asking why. Simply respond "as I am under suspicion of a crime I will not be answering any questions, I will do not consent to any searches and I want a lawyer" and SHUT YOUR TRAP! That is the answer to ANY question he ask after he has indicated detainment, nothing else helps.

    Some will say you are trying to force them to violate your rights just so you can sue, lots of other bs along side, but the truth is real simple, the officer is the only one who makes that CHOICE and he is under NO OBLIGATION what so ever to preserve your rights and is highly trained in circumventing them through consent. NEVER give it.

    As a general rule, the courts say this detainment can last 19 minutes, by then he has to either let you go or make an arrest. That is not set in stone as it is one of those stupid "reasonable" times and circumstances can change it so don't resist at any level if it goes longer, the burden is on him to explain WHY and any level of resistance to it hands that to him.

    In the entire process, should they hook you up, pretend your lips are superglued and never speak a word until you get a lawyer, nothing can help you. Do not object if they do not Miranda you, until they take you to an interrogation room, it is not required by law.

    SCOTUS has made it clear, you MUST assert your rights verbally to retain them and did so in one of the stupidest rulings ever to leave the bench, even acknowledging it could be incriminating to do so, but since it did not apply to the particular case before the bench, it was not to be considered.

    Go figure. Do not take my advice, speak with your own atty. I think you are going to find they are going to tell you the same thing, don't say a word. Speaking with my own, he clearly identified it would be easier to represent someone for NOT giving information required than it would be anyone who said too much.

    On a very real note, most of the interactions go very smooth, but there are some officers who try and intimidate folks into talking, if it is a friendly encounter, by all means, be friendly and respectful, but the instant demands get made, raise the red flag and confirm if it is an official contact with "am I being detained" and take the proper actions if it is the case.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Be calm, respectful and present a good image to benefit other carriers.

    $.02
    I'd say your $.02 is worth a lot more than that.

    Good, sage advice!
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Your MO legislature has provide a wealth of info on their website.

    MO state constitution, Artical 1 Sec 15 WITH court citations!!!! (many many)

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/const/A01015.HTM

  20. #20
    Regular Member Reverend BCal's Avatar
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    Still fighting it...

    Hello, guys. You all may remember my incidents at HyVee back in March and most recently in September. During the first incident I asked questions, states vigilant and was allowed to check out and leave. The second time I was arrested for failure to identify myself and for trespassing. I was never asked to leave the store and I never revised to show ID...I simply asked that same old question, "Am I legally obligated to provide a physical ID? Am I being detained?"Her excuse for needing ID was to prove I was over 21 and not a felon. The September officer even got my description over the radio from the officer at the March stop, as well as a verification that I was not a felon, over 21 and legally able to possesses a firearm...and still arrested me.
    Long story short, I recorded both incidents and have a trial date set got the 14th, but with no money for a attorney I'm looking at representing myself (something I do notre wasn't to do) in what will be a frustrating battle. I know I'm right, but how far will that knowledge get me right now? Any suggestions or help would be fantastic.
    "Before all else, be armed." -Nicolo Machiavelli

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    Any suggestions or help would be fantastic.
    Under no circumstances what so ever appear without a lawyer.

    You could possibly lose your freedom over a procedural error and no one is obligated to assist you in any way. Even a PD beats you, nothing personal.

    You are a family man, the risk is not just you eating crappy food for a few weeks and toughing it out.

    You understand that if and when you choose to make a statement, doing so and saying the wrong thing is testifying at which point the prosecutor gets his shot at you and he gets to break any rules he wants with no one to protect you through objections to even base future appeals on etc.

    NOTHING about doing this yourself is a good idea.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  22. #22
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    Cop: "Can I take a look at your ID?"

    Citizen: "Why sure, officer. How you're going to figure out which of 5 million in the MO database is mine, I don't know. But, you're welcome to look."



    Seriously, though. The discussion about the police needing RAS (assuming there is an ordinance or statute, too) misses something really, really important that is not at all obvious from reading the statutes and ordinances: the cop doesn't have to tell you whether or what his RAS is. I've never seen a statute or court ruling requiring it.

    Basically, you would have no way to know whether the cop had the necessary RAS. Meaning, if you withhold your identity, and there is a statute or ordinance, and it turns out he does have genuine RAS, you could be facing a citation. I've seen some stop-and-identify statutes and ordinances where the penalty was pretty serious. Not a felony, but a fairly strong misdemeanor.

    It starts with RAS and Terry vs Ohio. At the end of Terry you will see the court said that each incident will have to be judged on its own facts. What does that mean for our discussion? It means that the court judge is the one who decides whether RAS existed. And, he is doing it after the fact. Meaning after you have been cited or arrested.

    It is up to the courts to decide whether RAS existed. Meaning, not you. I have never read a court case where the defendant got to decide whether RAS was valid during the detention. In fact, I have read one state case said in so many words that the detainee doesn't get to decide. (Christian v Commonwealth of VA)

    Now, you have to realize that courts have been churning out reams of decisions since Terry as to whether the circumstances for this or that detention amounted to genuine RAS. Forty years of decisions. Do you know which circumstances have been ruled as sufficient for RAS? Do you think you can figure out whether your detention--while it is occurring--is close enough to the circumstances of an earlier detention that have already been ruled enough for RAS? Do you think you can correctly guess what the judge you get will rule regarding RAS of your detention.

    Do you know whether the courts allow cops to judge circumstances in light of their own experience as LEOs?

    If the detainee guesses wrong about any of that, he's likely in trouble. And, realize that this is after the cop cites or arrests him.

    If the cop thinks he has RAS, that is what is going to count during the encounter itself.


    What can you do? I am not a lawyer; can't give legal advice. But, I can tell you what I will do:

    "Officer, I will provide my identity. I do not consent to providing it. But, since you have demanded it in a way that makes me think compliance may be compelled, I will give it to you. You are demanding it, yes?"

    This preserves my legal standing (see the FlexYourRights videos for info about consent). If it turns out later the cop did in fact not have RAS for the identity demand, then I've got another bullet-point for my formal written complaint or lawsuit. And, I will be checking to find out whether he did or not.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-07-2011 at 01:11 AM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend BCal View Post
    SNIP Long story short, I recorded both incidents and have a trial date set got the 14th, but with no money for a attorney I'm looking at representing myself (something I do notre wasn't to do) in what will be a frustrating battle. I know I'm right, but how far will that knowledge get me right now? Any suggestions or help would be fantastic.
    Can you get a public defender? It seems that the evidence should be suppressed at the outset if there was no RAS for a detention. I'm thinking a public defender can handle that.

    But, move heaven and earth to find an attorney. Check also for low cost attorneys (some inner cities have lawyers that will do this). Also, it seems I've heard of civic groups or non-profits that offer such. Heck, your local privacy groups might be able to connect you with an attorney at very low cost. Identity demands usually fall under the heading of concerns for privacy groups.

    Call all your old girlfriends, former employers, every friend and business contact to get leads to a low cost or free attorney. But, find an attorney.
    Last edited by Citizen; 11-07-2011 at 01:20 AM.

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