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Thread: an article from a former CO deputy sherrif about OC

  1. #1
    Regular Member Shooter McGee's Avatar
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    an article from a former CO deputy sherrif about OC

    kinda interesting. what do you all think?

    http://www.policeone.com/off-duty/ar...arry-citizens/

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Most of it sounds good, but there is that "officer safety" concept sitting square in the middle.

    Until cops get away from that and start focusing on present behavior as the aspect that guides their own behavior (as this guy glosses over) we are still the enemy in their eyes.

    stay safe.
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    Regular Member Shooter McGee's Avatar
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    and i really didn't care much for this bit.

    "Open carry doesn’t fit into the hunting or sporting use of firearms. It really isn’t about hunting or sport shooting. It’s about the fundamental right of self defense and is a form of political protest. There are many internet forum discussions on open carry that deal specifically with this type of organized protest."
    Last edited by Shooter McGee; 10-31-2011 at 10:46 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    As we all (except the officer) know, OC isn't a protest. A firearm isn't a sign. It's a tool, and as such, has multiple uses, including deterrence and self-protection/defense.

    As for the idiotic comment about it having no place in hunting, in MOST states a sidearm can be used for hunting, depending on the size of the game and the sidearm. I used to hunt deer in the State of Washington with my .44 Ruger Redhawk. It was scoped, and met the minimum ft-lb at 100 yrds required by law.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Shooter McGee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    As we all (except the officer) know, OC isn't a protest. A firearm isn't a sign. It's a tool, and as such, has multiple uses, including deterrence and self-protection/defense.

    As for the idiotic comment about it having no place in hunting, in MOST states a sidearm can be used for hunting, depending on the size of the game and the sidearm. I used to hunt deer in the State of Washington with my .44 Ruger Redhawk. It was scoped, and met the minimum ft-lb at 100 yrds required by law.


    i do know one OC'er that your first statement could apply to.

    for me when i hunt i carry 2 handguns. my .45 1911 on my chest for possible close ups with mountain lions and bears while pushing thru the forest, with my ought 6 slung over my shoulder. the other handgun is a walther p22 in my pack and the reason for this is in case i get turned around and lose my way in the mountains and say my compass is broke and i may have to hunker down for a day or 2 or more or really any number of scenarios that can happen in these hills and i have to shoot some small game for a meal with meat in it i want to have something i can shoot small game with and still have something left of it to eat after i hit it.
    Last edited by Shooter McGee; 11-01-2011 at 10:39 AM.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Polynikes's Avatar
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    A side note to the citizen carrying openly: You should expect to be contacted law enforcement. You should expect to be feared by some, and considered to be a person of interest to many. Understand that by wearing a weapon in the open, you raise the perceived threat level in the eyes of law enforcement and other citizens. Friendly behavior goes a long way. People key on behavior rather than the weapon. Most folks respond well to a smile, polite behavior or a warm hello rather than a cold stare. I recommend that approach. You will be surprised how many people respond in a positive manner when you do that. Actually, this holds true on both sides of an open carry discussion, contact, or encounter...
    Sorry, but I should not expect to be contacted by law enforcement when I've given no indication of breaking the law. Sorry, but the fact that I choose to protect myself does not allow law enforcement to perceive me as a greater threat.

    The author lost all credibility in my book when he went down that road.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    Sorry, but I should not expect to be contacted by law enforcement when I've given no indication of breaking the law. Sorry, but the fact that I choose to protect myself does not allow law enforcement to perceive me as a greater threat.

    The author lost all credibility in my book when he went down that road.
    To play Devil's advocate here, I'm sure he would say there is a difference between being contacted and being detained. Personally, I agree with you completely.

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shooter McGee View Post
    i do know one OC'er that your first statement could apply to.
    I know dozens to whom it applies.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    I know dozens to whom it applies.
    Gee, except for guys like you, the King's English would be doomed to "bolivian"(*).

    (hehe)

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    To play Devil's advocate here, I'm sure he would say there is a difference between being contacted and being detained. Personally, I agree with you completely.
    True. However, I'd much rather not be contacted as I go about my personal business while obeying the law. I'm not one to shy away from the police, and have engaged them in conversation on a few occasions, usually while waiting in line at Wendy's or in a similar venue. It's just that I'm usually running on time, and any contact would turn that into running late. I hate being late!

    Under the Colorado Springs Police Department's General Orders, OC is not in and of itself sufficient justification for contact. I assume El Paso County Sheriff's Office has similar restrictions.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

  11. #11
    Regular Member rushcreek2's Avatar
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    I found the article to be a generally objective, and fair review of the growing OC movement from both the perspective of the citizens, and law enforcement.

    I think the one cliched reference to OC'ers as "running around with guns on their hips" was NOT objective. I do not "run around with a gun on my hip". I walk, stand, sit, shop, eat, and - I guess - run if I need to (but NOT "around" - in WHAT ? - circles ?))

    A side note. Have you folks been following the story about the Florida trooper who arrested the Miami Cop for speeding, and failure to stop - AT GUN -POINT? The Miami-Dade police officers spokesman on Fox News said that he didn't think much of having a LOADED GUN pointed at
    the officers head for a mere misdemeanor ................

    Now .......... just maybe they understand how citizens feel when LEO's point guns at their heads for exercising a right of citizenship.

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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    I'd say the article was well-written, articulate, and informative.

    I especially thought the following quote was reasonable and should be given serious consideration by all who carry:


    "A side note to the citizen carrying openly:

    You should expect to be contacted law enforcement.

    You should expect to be feared by some, and considered to be a person of interest to many. Understand that by wearing a weapon in the open, you raise the perceived threat level in the eyes of law enforcement and other citizens.

    Friendly behavior goes a long way. People key on behavior rather than the weapon.

    Most folks respond well to a smile, polite behavior or a warm hello rather than a cold stare. I recommend that approach. You will be surprised how many people respond in a positive manner when you do that.

    Actually, this holds true on both sides of an open carry discussion, contact, or encounter..."
    Last edited by MilProGuy; 11-11-2011 at 01:14 AM. Reason: removed colored font to conform to forum standards
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    Regular Member Polynikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    I'd say the article was well-written, articulate, and informative.

    I especially thought the following quote was reasonable and should be given serious consideration by all who carry:

    "A side note to the citizen carrying openly:

    You should expect to be contacted law enforcement.

    You should expect to be feared by some, and considered to be a person of interest to many. Understand that by wearing a weapon in the open, you raise the perceived threat level in the eyes of law enforcement and other citizens.

    Friendly behavior goes a long way. People key on behavior rather than the weapon.

    Most folks respond well to a smile, polite behavior or a warm hello rather than a cold stare. I recommend that approach. You will be surprised how many people respond in a positive manner when you do that.

    Actually, this holds true on both sides of an open carry discussion, contact, or encounter..."
    ...except that it's not any more reasonable to be stopped for the gun on my hip than to be stopped for the color of my skin. Neither example justifies giving an officer carte blanche over my rights. Detain me for even a moment while I go about my daily business and I won't be the kind of problem that goes away easily.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it." - Judge Learned Hand

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    Gee, except for guys like you, the King's English would be doomed to "bolivian".
    Hast thou visited upon thy humble servant a token of thy gratitude?

    Quote Originally Posted by rushcreek2 View Post
    I think the one cliched reference to OC'ers as "running around with guns on their hips" was NOT objective.
    Agreed. That was an underhanded journalistic slight of hand to state something that on the surface which seems innocuous, but in the reader's mind colors the activity in a negative light.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilProGuy View Post
    I'd say the article was well-written, articulate, and informative.

    I especially thought the following quote was reasonable and should be given serious consideration by all who carry:

    "A side note to the citizen carrying openly:

    You should expect to be contacted law enforcement.

    You should expect to be feared by some, and considered to be a person of interest to many. Understand that by wearing a weapon in the open, you raise the perceived threat level in the eyes of law enforcement and other citizens.

    Friendly behavior goes a long way. People key on behavior rather than the weapon.

    Most folks respond well to a smile, polite behavior or a warm hello rather than a cold stare. I recommend that approach. You will be surprised how many people respond in a positive manner when you do that.

    Actually, this holds true on both sides of an open carry discussion, contact, or encounter..."
    I do not agree. I have not been stopped specifically for my OC, with one exception. That exception was generated by a MWAG call, and terminated in a two word contact, one from him, one from me.. I sure the Deputy spoke more than two words to the gal that called.

    I have had my carry totally ignored on more than one occation with WSP, Okanogan County Sheriff and Tonasket town police. The Tonasket police contact wanted to know if I was going to join their gun club.

    No, If I am doing nothing illegal, I do not expect to be stopped, and would be very surprised if I was. I have never been disarmed for any reason, and would protest any attempt to disarm me. My pistol is no threat to anyone while it is in it's holster, it is a treat to everyone once it comes out of it's hoster for whatever reason.

  16. #16
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    He sure talks out of both sides of his mouth...
    After that crack about "running around" & "no sporting purpose",
    he comes up with this:
    there seems to be a lot of hypothetical rhetoric in regards to threat situations of “what could happen?” versus “what does history show us has happened?” Is there a heightened state of criminal activity associated with open carry versus concealed carry versus no carry (other than the obvious firearms violation for school zone or whatnot)?

    The answer appears to be “not really.” Regardless of opinions or beliefs, there is not a spike in criminal activity associated with merely carrying a firearm.
    Except for the nonsense about the "GF"SZ, that seems supportive of the right to carry.
    How does he know that OCers don't have permission slips so they can legally carry in a "GF"SZ?

    I like his point #3:
    Targeting open carry by finding ways to charge people with other violations and then ticketing or arresting them may backfire and could be very expensive in the long run. One of the universities in Utah apparently tried this approach and it was leaked to the press. Now we run into civil liberties violations, etc.
    And #7:
    when you make contact with someone carrying openly without good probable cause, the strategy of “when in doubt, prone ‘em out” would not be my first choice.
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    Regular Member MilProGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    I do not agree. I have not been stopped specifically for my OC, with one exception. That exception was generated by a MWAG call, and terminated in a two word contact, one from him, one from me.. I sure the Deputy spoke more than two words to the gal that called.

    I have had my carry totally ignored on more than one occation with WSP, Okanogan County Sheriff and Tonasket town police. The Tonasket police contact wanted to know if I was going to join their gun club.

    No, If I am doing nothing illegal, I do not expect to be stopped, and would be very surprised if I was. I have never been disarmed for any reason, and would protest any attempt to disarm me. My pistol is no threat to anyone while it is in it's holster, it is a treat to everyone once it comes out of it's hoster for whatever reason.
    Thank you for your interesting post.

    It certainly is "the other side of the coin" from the post I was quoting.
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  18. #18
    Regular Member JamesB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    I do not agree. I have not been stopped specifically for my OC, with one exception. That exception was generated by a MWAG call, and terminated in a two word contact, one from him, one from me.. I sure the Deputy spoke more than two words to the gal that called.

    I have had my carry totally ignored on more than one occation with WSP, Okanogan County Sheriff and Tonasket town police. The Tonasket police contact wanted to know if I was going to join their gun club.

    No, If I am doing nothing illegal, I do not expect to be stopped, and would be very surprised if I was. I have never been disarmed for any reason, and would protest any attempt to disarm me. My pistol is no threat to anyone while it is in it's holster, it is a treat to everyone once it comes out of it's hoster for whatever reason.
    I have been stopped specifically for OC, repetedly. I have been disarmed, repetedly. Protesting is much more challenging when the other guy is pointing his at you.

    My pistol is NOT a threat to everyone, even when it does come out of it's holster. Only to ones who threaten me and mine.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Kingfish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesb View Post
    my pistol is not a threat to everyone, even when it does come out of it's holster. Only to ones who threaten me and mine.
    this!!!

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