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Thread: Interesting loop hole....tell me what you think.

  1. #1
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    Interesting loop hole....tell me what you think.

    I was reading the state statues governing concealed carry on school property. Basically no one may conceal carry, student or law abiding adult. there is however a list of people who are allowed:

    (a) A peace officer;
    (b) A person who lawfully possesses a firearm or deadly or dangerous weapon as an appropriate part of a program, an event, activity or other circumstance approved by the board of trustees or governing board;
    (c) A person or persons complying with the provisions of section 19-202A, Idaho Code;
    (d) Any adult over eighteen (18) years of age and not enrolled in a public or private elementary or secondary school who has lawful possession of a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon, secured and locked in his vehicle in an unobtrusive, nonthreatening manner;
    (e) A person who lawfully possesses a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon in a private vehicle while delivering minor children, students or school employees to and from school or a school activity;
    (f) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-3302C, Idaho Code, a person or an employee of the school or school district who is authorized to carry a firearm with the permission of the board of trustees of the school district or the governing board.


    C got my attention. Anyone acting within the provisons of legal jeopardy in the case of self defense is allowable. This to me implies one may CC on school property. What do you all think?

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    Regular Member bowb's Avatar
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    Might be a stretch...

    IANAL but maybe? Is open carry/concealed carry a reasonable means necessary for protecting myself?

    19-202A. Legal jeopardy in cases of self-defense and defense of other threatened parties. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting himself or his family by reasonable means necessary, or when coming to the aid of another whom he reasonably believes to be in imminent danger of or the victim of aggravated assault, robbery, rape, murder or other heinous crime.

    Now
    18-3302D. Possessing weapons or firearms on school property.
    (1) (a) It shall be unlawful and is a misdemeanor for any person to possess a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon while on the property of a school or in those portions of any building, stadium or other structure on school grounds which, at the time of the violation, were being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school in this state or while riding school provided transportation.

    Is there a loophole here when the school is not being used for a school sponsored activity? Such as the City, YMCA using school property for events?
    Or does the school sponsor all activities no matter what?

    Anyway,

    someday somebody with deep pockets should challenge this law. Right now it is not me.
    Last edited by bowb; 10-31-2011 at 10:48 PM.

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    I see no loophole here. You would have to be in jeapardy to apply this. Any carry before that would be illegal. So unless you or another are under an active threat you are not in jeapardy.

    Not sure about the school carry when school is not in session. My church uses a school gymnasium every sunday. I'm not willing to test that.

  4. #4
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    What does the entire law say? Is only "concealed" carry banned or all carry?
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

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    It says "possess". Look up the legal defination of possession. I went through that as I sat on a Jury last spring and got an eye opener.

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    Regular Member bowb's Avatar
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    Carrying at church going on in a school would be an interesting test case. Surely the school would never admit to sponsoring a church. Just would have to make sure no school activities were happenings.

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    No loophole.

    I actually sat in on the legislative committee meeting where the language for this was crafted years ago. It's my recollection the very same question was asked, and the committee minutes reflect the legislative intent that no such loophole exist; the wording of the statute, and the rules of statutory construction, are such that one could not be found. If a defendant tried to argue the ambiguity, the prosecutor will point to the committee minutes and statutory construction rules, and a judge would most likely agree.

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    Regular Member DocWalker's Avatar
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    So what it sounds like is they say you can use a firearm or other weapon to defend yourself from murder or rape on school property so they don't have to be liable if you are murdered or raped. You are just not allowed to have a weapon with you at the time you are attached, this means a rapist or murder needs to allow you to go home and get your gun before they can rape or kill you. This is wonderful as we will all know when we are going to be attacked; as a criminal needs to make an appointment to commit a crime on school property.
    Last edited by DocWalker; 11-07-2011 at 04:04 PM.

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    Hmmm, perhaps more to the point, if you are chased onto the property or enter to effect rescue you're covered.

    FWIW, I agree with you that schools should not be restricted from lawful carry by citizens, be they parents, staff or visitors.

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    .
    Last edited by Keith Cromm; 05-24-2012 at 12:11 AM.

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    Regular Member bowb's Avatar
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    Do you have the resources to challenge this? If so that's awesome. It seems you want to challenge several laws at the same time. Anyone know how that would work? I never thought about the special class of citizens being created by some of these laws. I do agree that several seem to violate the state constitution.

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocWalker View Post
    So what it sounds like is they say you can use a firearm or other weapon to defend yourself from murder or rape on school property so they don't have to be liable if you are murdered or raped. You are just not allowed to have a weapon with you at the time you are attached, this means a rapist or murder needs to allow you to go home and get your gun before they can rape or kill you. This is wonderful as we will all know when we are going to be attacked; as a criminal needs to make an appointment to commit a crime on school property.
    You just have to keep your gun in your car and pray to God that you can get it if a lunatic shows up.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member oldbanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xmanhockey7 View Post
    What does the entire law say? Is only "concealed" carry banned or all carry?
    18-3302D. Possessing weapons or firearms on school property.
    (1) (a) It shall be unlawful and is a misdemeanor for any person to possess a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon while on the property of a school or in those portions of any building, stadium or other structure on school grounds which, at the time of the violation, were being used for an activity sponsored by or through a school in this state or while riding school provided transportation.
    (b) The provisions of this section regarding the possession of a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon on school property shall also apply to students of schools while attending or participating in any school sponsored activity, program or event regardless of location.
    (2) Definitions. As used in this section:
    (a) "Deadly or dangerous weapon" means any weapon as defined in 18 U.S.C. section 930;
    (b) "Firearm" means any firearm as defined in 18 U.S.C. section 921;
    (c) "Minor" means a person under the age of eighteen (18) years;
    (d) "Possess" means to bring an object, or to cause it to be brought, onto the property of a public or private elementary or secondary school, or onto a vehicle being used for school provided transportation, or to exercise dominion and control over an object located anywhere on such property or vehicle. For purposes of subsection (1)(b) of this section, "possess" shall also mean to bring an object onto the site of a school sponsored activity, program or event, regardless of location, or to exercise dominion and control over an object located anywhere on such a site;
    (e) "School" means a private or public elementary or secondary school.
    (3) Right to search students or minors. For purposes of enforcing the provisions of this section, employees of a school district shall have the right to search all students or minors, including their belongings and lockers, that are reasonably believed to be in violation of the provisions of this section, or applicable school rule or district policy, regarding the possessing of a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon.
    (4) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the following persons:
    (a) A peace officer;
    (b) A person who lawfully possesses a firearm or deadly or dangerous weapon as an appropriate part of a program, an event, activity or other circumstance approved by the board of trustees or governing board;
    (c) A person or persons complying with the provisions of section 19-202A, Idaho Code;
    (d) Any adult over eighteen (18) years of age and not enrolled in a public or private elementary or secondary school who has lawful possession of a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon, secured and locked in his vehicle in an unobtrusive, nonthreatening manner;
    (e) A person who lawfully possesses a firearm or other deadly or dangerous weapon in a private vehicle while delivering minor children, students or school employees to and from school or a school activity;
    (f) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-3302C, Idaho Code, a person or an employee of the school or school district who is authorized to carry a firearm with the permission of the board of trustees of the school district or the governing board.
    (5) Penalties. Persons who are found guilty of violating the provisions of this section may be sentenced to a jail term of not more than one (1) year or fined an amount not in excess of one thousand dollars ($1,000) or both. If a violator is a student and under the age of eighteen (18) years, the court may place the violator on probation and suspend the juvenile detention or fine or both as long as the violator is enrolled in a program of study recognized by the court that, upon successful completion, will grant the violator a general equivalency diploma (GED) or a high school diploma or other educational program authorized by the court. Upon successful completion of the terms imposed by the court, the court shall discharge the offender from serving the remainder of the sentence. If the violator does not complete, is suspended from, or otherwise withdraws from the program of study imposed by the court, the court, upon receiving such information, shall order the violator to commence serving the sentence provided for in this section.

    http://legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/...CT18-3302D.htm

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