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Thread: Jury duty

  1. #1
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    Jury duty

    So I just got a summons. Was planning on going to the courthouse with an empty holster, on my belt(disarming when parked, locking the firearm into my safe in my vehicle). I think I saw some post a while back had a problem with this, and wondered if they ever got it resolved. From what I can remember, no NRS exists about this, and it's in no way violating any laws or known (written) policies? Just curious on thoughts, how much I should stand my ground/brave threats of arrest....or is this just a bad idea, and I can leave my holster in my truck too. Thanks for reading/replies.

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    The only thing I know of regarding the wearing of empty holsters is from the Empty Holster Protests that SCCC puts on. There was a ruling in Texas stating is qualifies under the 1st Amendment as free speech.

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    Whether you end up taking your empty holster, don't forget to take full understanding of your powers as a juror.


    Fully Informed Jury Association: http://fija.org/


    Also, if you read just the first section of this essay, you will know more than 99.3% of the population about where and how the trial by jury fits into our constitutional system: An Essay on the Trial by Jury by Lysander Spooner, 1852.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Whether you end up taking your empty holster, don't forget to take full understanding of your powers as a juror.


    Fully Informed Jury Association: http://fija.org/


    Also, if you read just the first section of this essay, you will know more than 99.3% of the population about where and how the trial by jury fits into our constitutional system: An Essay on the Trial by Jury by Lysander Spooner, 1852.
    [banghead]

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Whether you end up taking your empty holster, don't forget to take full understanding of your powers as a juror.


    Fully Informed Jury Association: http://fija.org/


    Also, if you read just the first section of this essay, you will know more than 99.3% of the population about where and how the trial by jury fits into our constitutional system: An Essay on the Trial by Jury by Lysander Spooner, 1852.

    Ditto, ditto, ditto.... Not even second amendment issues are more important than getting informed jurors on juries. Know you rights as a juror, don't let the judge and prosecutor snow you. If you don't like the law, think it is applied unfairly, you have the right to nullify it. It would be nice to get on a local second amendment trial (N Las Vegas, County).

    TBG
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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I've been summoned twice. Both times it got canceled the day before. Sometimes I wonder if jurors are real people.

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    As far as I can tell, open carry in a courthouse is completely legal. Up until the point the judge orders you held in contempt. Also, as far as I can tell, the bailiffs or marshalls enforce their own or the court's rules and prohibit possession of firearms, in violation of state pre-emption. Perhaps they would assault you, perhaps they would arrest you for trespassing or obstructing.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    As far as I can tell, open carry in a courthouse is completely legal. Up until the point the judge orders you held in contempt. Also, as far as I can tell, the bailiffs or marshalls enforce their own or the court's rules and prohibit possession of firearms, in violation of state pre-emption. Perhaps they would assault you, perhaps they would arrest you for trespassing or obstructing.
    If you are summoned, court ordered, to be there, I don't see any way they could trespass you. This is one of those problems, as most are, that a little ingenuity and a suitable application of cash could take care of. Unfortunately who has the time or money to fight it? In a case like this what judge would overrule another?


    TBG
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    I'm aghast that you are planning to attend court with an empty holster. Don't you know those things can, um, go off by themselves?
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badger Johnson View Post
    I'm aghast that you are planning to attend court with an empty holster. Don't you know those things can, um, go off by themselves?
    That's the word! Gun haters eat too many beans and become aghast, then must spew it. I've been trying to figure that out for the longest time, now it is clear.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

  11. #11
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    One issue the juror wants to be aware of if not already is Jury Nullification. A legal right of the juror the courts and judges like to keep their thumbs on. A co-worker has told me who is up on the issues, slipping the knowledge of Jury Nullification during the interviewing process more than likely will end up not being picked as a juror.

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    I ha to go to a courthouse once (I live in Texas btw) and disarmed in my car but left my supertuck on. I went in and took everything out of pockets etc an left my belt and holster on. I told the deputy when I went through I was going to set off the metal detector and I did. Then I showed him my holster and said it was a pain to get on and off because I would have to unbuckled belt, etc.
    Deputy looked at me and said "ok" and that was it. Kinda scared me with how readily he let me through without wanding to make sure I didn't have anything else but my holster and or asking me to remove it and going through the metal detector again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 28kfps View Post
    One issue the juror wants to be aware of if not already is Jury Nullification. A legal right of the juror the courts and judges like to keep their thumbs on. A co-worker has told me who is up on the issues, slipping the knowledge of Jury Nullification during the interviewing process more than likely will end up not being picked as a juror.
    I've heard the same thing. There is also a debate on weather or not jury nullification is legal (even though a judge said it was back in the 1800s). I personally think it's perfectly fine especially for a bad law (which is what it is intended for).

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonSoul View Post
    I ha to go to a courthouse once (I live in Texas btw) and disarmed in my car but left my supertuck on. I went in and took everything out of pockets etc an left my belt and holster on. I told the deputy when I went through I was going to set off the metal detector and I did. Then I showed him my holster and said it was a pain to get on and off because I would have to unbuckled belt, etc.
    Deputy looked at me and said "ok" and that was it. Kinda scared me with how readily he let me through without wanding to make sure I didn't have anything else but my holster and or asking me to remove it and going through the metal detector again.
    Yeah, similar thing happened to me, I use a metal cane and they just told me to walk around the detector, lol.
    A gun in a holster is better than one drawn and dispensing bullets. Concealed forces the latter. - ixtow

    Hi, I'm hypercritical. But I mean no harm, I just like to try to look deeply at life

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yard Sale View Post
    As far as I can tell, open carry in a courthouse is completely legal. Up until the point the judge orders you held in contempt. Also, as far as I can tell, the bailiffs or marshalls enforce their own or the court's rules and prohibit possession of firearms, in violation of state pre-emption. Perhaps they would assault you, perhaps they would arrest you for trespassing or obstructing.
    If it is completely legal under NV state law, then there's a federal law that would apply to a judge interfering with your right to carry: 18USC242. Judicial immunity wouldn't shield the judge from it either, as just about anyone who lacks some sort of immunity can't break that particular federal law. The question is, does NV have Citizen's Arrest? That'd be a fascinating case right there, can a judge issue legally binding orders while under arrest, up to and including ordering his own release? And if he can't, and the bailiffs obey him anyway, that would bring up 18USC241 (conspiracy to violate 18USC242).

    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonSoul View Post
    I've heard the same thing. There is also a debate on weather or not jury nullification is legal (even though a judge said it was back in the 1800s). I personally think it's perfectly fine especially for a bad law (which is what it is intended for).
    A jury is part of the court. A court can nullify laws. If a jury can't, then neither can a judge.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    If you are summoned, court ordered, to be there, I don't see any way they could trespass you. This is one of those problems, as most are, that a little ingenuity and a suitable application of cash could take care of. Unfortunately who has the time or money to fight it? In a case like this what judge would overrule another?
    IANAL, but I would consider being ordered to leave a courthouse under a trespass order to be a dismissal from jury duty. The court lacks the authority to order you not to exercise your constitutional, statutory or civil rights (18USC242), therefore since you are obligated by law to be present for jury selection, being told to leave would either have no legal force or would amount to being excused from jury duty. The court literally cannot have it both ways; Either they have issued an illegal order (and cannot enforce it) or they have issued a legal order (with all the consequences and results that carries with it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    IANAL, but I would consider being ordered to leave a courthouse under a trespass order to be a dismissal from jury duty.
    DON'T.

    You can only be dismissed from a jury by the COURT -- that is to say, the judge or a person acting at the judge's direction.

    The cop who tells you to leave is no more the "court" than the ticket-taker at the Venetian is a member of the Blue Man Group.

    If you are ever in this situation, tell the cop that the COURT has ordered you to appear, and ask him to provide a dismissal IN WRITING. He will probably kick it up the chain of command, and eventually someone will get a clerk to get that done.

    My advice, however, is to not take a gun to court if called for jury duty. You never know what case you might be called for, and could be in a position of influence far beyond anything other chance that you will ever have.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    DON'T.

    You can only be dismissed from a jury by the COURT -- that is to say, the judge or a person acting at the judge's direction.

    The cop who tells you to leave is no more the "court" than the ticket-taker at the Venetian is a member of the Blue Man Group.

    If you are ever in this situation, tell the cop that the COURT has ordered you to appear, and ask him to provide a dismissal IN WRITING. He will probably kick it up the chain of command, and eventually someone will get a clerk to get that done.

    My advice, however, is to not take a gun to court if called for jury duty. You never know what case you might be called for, and could be in a position of influence far beyond anything other chance that you will ever have.
    Very good point. Good people need to get on Juries. The influence we can exert is important in the maintaining and restoring of our rights. There truly is nothing a person can do to make a difference more beneficial then serving on important cases.

    TBG
    Life member GOA and NRA. Member of SAF, NAGR, TXGR and Cast Bullet Assoc.

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    Sadly, and kinda weirdly...my number didn't come up. I had to call, the same night my place got broken into, and someone stole one of my pistols (see thread burglarized). It was really really annoying having to call the jury duty service while the police filled their report out, and CSI dusted my place. Had I been picked, I woulda probably been dismissed, cause I was really angry for those few weeks. I guess that's worn off.....somewhat.


    They said they'd send me another summons.


    So I'm starting a 12 day vacation....tried to leave work yesterday, and my truck wouldn't start! I got a jump, drove to walmart, put a new battery in....and am now on the vaca! But...on the way home from walmart got pulled over. My first pull over since I've been carrying.(except the damn DUI stop I had a hit and run at). It was NHP. I pulled over, hit the hazard lights, took my keys out put on dash, and had my hands on steering wheel. When the officer came up, I said something like "i'm armed, and have it with me, and I have a carry liscense". I meant to say "I have a permit to carry and I have it on me", but I messed up somehow....nerves. He asked where it was, and I answered, 'holstered, 3'oclock, on my belt(was open carry, but that never came up). He asked for my id/reg/insur. I was very deliberate in my moves/speech. I said 'I'm taking off my seat belt with my left hand. I'm going to take my wallet out with my right hand and put it on the dash. I will reach into my glove box to get my registration and insurance and put it on the dash."

    He looked at my cards/papers and said have a good night. He didn't even go back to his car to 'run me'. He thanked me for my deliberate manner and intentions, and said be safe. (I asked why he pulled me over, my windshield has a crack, and he said get that fixed asap). This is my first and only warning....I am very grateful! I have had a crumby last few days/weeks...with the burglary, and the stupid PTs decision to bar guns, and my truck blarg! This guy really made a good impression I guess. Yes I'm now off work for a while, and that's a huge motivating factor, but I've never had a warning ever. I've been cited for the stupidest things, like not signalling (400$ ticket). I have a feeling I used to get 'selected' cause I had a blue mohawk and tattoos and such, well into my twenties.... But I had long sleeves on and 'regular hair' so today I'm happy no ticket for the first time ever! And no, I am not going to select how I look to avoid tickets....I do however select how I look for my job (blah!). But this NHP guy was very cool with me, was the shortest stop I've had, and after a really crap day I'm glad it ended as such.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlittlerobot View Post
    I was very deliberate in my moves/speech. I said 'I'm taking off my seat belt with my left hand. I'm going to take my wallet out with my right hand and put it on the dash. I will reach into my glove box to get my registration and insurance and put it on the dash."
    THIS IS A REALLY GOOD IDEA



    I bet the whole tone you set with the keys out, hands on the wheel, and talking out what your actions were going to be is what kept you out of a ticket. I've gotten out of a few tickets (all but one) and I feel it was my 'getting pulled over etiquette' that saved me.

    (the one time I got a ticket was driving all of my wife's stuff down to my place after we got married. Officer Lt Phillips gave us a great wedding gift of -$133. )
    Last edited by Schlitz; 12-12-2011 at 04:46 PM.
    “The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.”
    [Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. Supp. 486, 489 (1956)]
    “There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of his exercise of constitutional rights.”
    [Sherar vs. Cullen, 481 F2d. 946 (1973)]

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    133 is awesome! Tickets I've had range from 400 to 1500!.

    Its a bit funny, I've only gotten out of one, you've gotten out of all but one!

    My friends are all cops, and it makes my whole interactions with them worse for the most part! lol.

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    Regular Member oldbanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlittlerobot View Post
    ...(I asked why he pulled me over, my windshield has a crack, and he said get that fixed asap)...
    WAT! In Idaho the new cars on the dealer lot have cracked windscreens

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlittlerobot View Post
    133 is awesome! Tickets I've had range from 400 to 1500!.

    Its a bit funny, I've only gotten out of one, you've gotten out of all but one!

    My friends are all cops, and it makes my whole interactions with them worse for the most part! lol.
    You must be getting pulled over by the highway patrol. I've had 3 tickets, never more than $130, but they've all been city cops. The THP is pretty notorious for writing $400 tickets though.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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  23. #23
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DVC View Post
    DON'T.

    You can only be dismissed from a jury by the COURT -- that is to say, the judge or a person acting at the judge's direction.

    The cop who tells you to leave is no more the "court" than the ticket-taker at the Venetian is a member of the Blue Man Group.

    If you are ever in this situation, tell the cop that the COURT has ordered you to appear, and ask him to provide a dismissal IN WRITING. He will probably kick it up the chain of command, and eventually someone will get a clerk to get that done.

    My advice, however, is to not take a gun to court if called for jury duty. You never know what case you might be called for, and could be in a position of influence far beyond anything other chance that you will ever have.
    Very good points. I find myself wondering though, if you fail to appear because you're sitting in a police holding cell for contempt of cop, does the cop suffer the legal penalties for interfering with the court? I can just imagine being served with a bench warrant in the lockup...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    Very good points. I find myself wondering though, if you fail to appear because you're sitting in a police holding cell for contempt of cop, does the cop suffer the legal penalties for interfering with the court? I can just imagine being served with a bench warrant in the lockup...
    Being in jail is one of the few automatic excuses. Likewise being in the hospital for reasons beyond your control, being called up for active-duty military service, etc.

    If you had a trip planned, and can prove that you A), made the arrangements prior to receiving the summons, B), the trip is required by your employer, or C), it is of an urgent nature (your mom is dying, for instance), these are NOT automatically excused, but will be excused when you provide the proof to the court upon your return. Again, these are outside of your control, and a reasonable person would accept them as being of greater priority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    Very good point. Good people need to get on Juries. The influence we can exert is important in the maintaining and restoring of our rights. There truly is nothing a person can do to make a difference more beneficial then serving on important cases.

    TBG
    Jury duty -- when performed by someone who takes the job seriously -- is the most important job that the average citizen can ever have. For that one moment, he or she is in CONTROL of the Judicial Branch of government. True, that control can be removed if they don't act responsibly (or if the judge doesn't), but the citizen has no greater tool against bad law than Jury Nullification.

    I wish that I could serve on a jury, but having served as a judge I am not eligible. Even before that, no way would anyone have seated me, because A), my dad was a cop, B), my mom was a court reporter, C), her father was a cop, D), an uncle was asked by (then-Governor) Reagan to sit on "any court you choose" in the state of California, up to the CalSupremes, then later any Federal court (when Reagan was President), and E), I taught Officer Safety and Pursuit Driving at various schools. No defense attorney in the WORLD would let me on a jury with that kind of background!

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