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Thread: capitol police try baiting oc'rs

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    capitol police try baiting oc'rs

    Capitol police tried to bait several people into oc at the capitol this morning. They were trying to tell us open carry was legal in the building today without a permit. Someone has audio. Should post tonight...
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    Figures the cops would do something like that. They were going to try to get someone to break the law. so they could make an example of them.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Police lying. They would never do that!

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    I didn't actually hear it but couldn't they possibly just be misinformed? You know, like most cops?
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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    Im thinking misinformed is more the situation...granted, they can lie...BUT can the tell or suggest an individuial to actually break the law?

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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    ^^Are you saying that 99% of cops are good guys and misinformed? Guess it's possible.
    Last edited by Badger Johnson; 11-01-2011 at 03:20 PM.
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    Regular Member bigdaddy1's Avatar
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    Unfortunatly, it has become quite apparent that to expect an officer of the law to actually know the laws they are charged to enforce is unreasonable.
    What part of "shall not be infringed" don't you understand?

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    Hmmmmmm.

    I knew it was a trap! Lol

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    My first instinct is to say the Capitol Police just don't know. For the police to suggest that you can do something legally, only to arrest or cite you because it is not legal, sounds like entrapment. That would be like a cop saying, "Hey, those apples on the cart are free for the taking", then charging you with theft if you took one. That's a no-no. Yes, the police can lie, but they cannot entrap.

    There's been plenty of confusion over the past couple of days over open carry in state buildings, thanks to poorly-worded articles in the press. I've been pretty well-acquainted with a couple of the capitol cops and they've been decent pro-gun guys. I don't know all of them however.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    Im thinking misinformed is more the situation...granted, they can lie...BUT can the tell or suggest an individuial to actually break the law?
    Sure they can, but it would be considered ENTRAPMENT once it was proved that they did it.
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Sure they can, but it would be considered ENTRAPMENT once it was proved that they did it.
    Only if we were charged.

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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    After turning in our applications in J.B. Van Hollen’s, several of us were hanging out in center of the ground floor. Charles Atlas was talking to a Capital Police officer, then later came over to me and said that the officer said that we could Open Carry in the Capitol starting on Nov. 1. We went back over the that officer and I challenged him saying that 941.235 prohibits firearms in a public building and Act 35 only amended that to allow licensees to carry and we just handed in our applications and have not received our CWL’s yet, so no, we cannot Open Carry in the Capitol today. He basically said I can think what I want but he knows. I said that the average gun rights activist knows the laws better than most LEO's. The discussion got deeper and he conceded that the DOJ says its illegal, but the DOA says that it is legal and the DOA has authority over the Capital and Capital Police.

    Charles Atlas and I told GlockRDH and others talked about it. I approached the officer again and told him to his face that it is legal for an LEO to lie. That is when he started to squirm. It was obvious to me that he was trying to protect the lie. He started saying that if he was caught in a lie, he could be fired. I laughed rather sarcastically stating that he would NOT get fired.

    Charles Atlas, GlockRDH and myself went to Sen. Grothmans office and spoke with Jolene Churchill, who called the Capitol Police Office and she was told that we could Open Carry as long as we did not go into any of the restricted areas like the Capitol Police Office, Supreme Courts chambers, and legislators offices that are posted.

    The consensus amongst us was that the Cap. Police were trying to bait us(entrap us) inot open carry into the Capital that would be in violation of State Statute and use this situation to pressure DOA into posting the entire building.

    The audio recording will tell a lot that Mlutz mentioned. I was joking and pulled out my audio recorder to get the officer on record, but then I showed in that it was not on. Later, he asked if I was recording and I showed him I was not saying that it goes on when I am armed and I am not armed. I am glad someone else had their audio recorder on.

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    i have the audio on my computer...trying to figure out how to pull the short segment out of the entire file...

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    Interesting situation. The following was added to 941.235 by Act35.

    941.235 (2) (e) A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1)
    (d), or an out−of−state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1)
    (g) "

    Unless specifically posted it appears 941.235 no longer applies to those licensed to conceal carry.


    This excert from 175.60(2) adds even more interest.


    (c) Unless expressly provided in this section, this section
    does not limit an individual’s right to carry a firearm
    that is not concealed.

    Does the combination of the two quotes mean: Does 941.235(2)(e) imply that a license to carry allows all those with a CCW license the privilege to carry in all public buildings(unless specifically prohibited by statute or posted). Does that license also apply to open carry by those licensed individuals. Does(c) above imply that 941.235 still applies to open carry because 175.60 is specific to concealed carry.

    I have to keep reminding myself that Act 35 was drafted by lawyers.

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    i have the audio on my computer...trying to figure out how to pull the short segment out of the entire file...
    If you are going to be at Lizzy's tonight, I have my netbook with me, so I can get that information off for you.
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    Regular Member Outdoorsman1's Avatar
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    I was also told in person that it was now ok to open carry in the Capitol building. It was from an CLEO sitting behind the counter near the main rotunda. He seemed to actually believe what he was saying.. I mentioned it to Paul who confirmed (to me) that he was wrong. As I was on my way out and not planning on carrying in the building I just left it at that.

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    Regular Member GlockRDH's Avatar
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    If i get my little card in the mail today, i may just OC into 'our house'...will i be subject to request for permit/id from LEOs? OR will be it just like on a public sidewalk where they really cant ask?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    If i get my little card in the mail today, i may just OC into 'our house'...will i be subject to request for permit/id from LEOs? OR will be it just like on a public sidewalk where they really cant ask?
    You gave up a bit of your Fourth Amendment Rights with your CWL.

    175.60(2g)(c) Unless the licensee or out−of−state licensee is carrying
    a concealed weapon in a manner described under s.
    941.23 (2) (e), a licensee who is carrying a concealed
    weapon
    shall display his or her license document and
    photographic identification card and an out−of−state
    licensee who is carrying a concealed weapon shall display
    his or her out−of−state license and photographic
    identification card to a law enforcement officer upon the
    request of the law enforcement officer while the law
    enforcement officer is acting in an official capacity and
    with lawful authority.

    Otherwise, without a CWL/concealing you are covered by 968.24 which requires RAS for a non-consensual 'conversation'.
    Last edited by Herr Heckler Koch; 11-04-2011 at 11:47 AM.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlockRDH View Post
    If i get my little card in the mail today, i may just OC into 'our house'...will i be subject to request for permit/id from LEOs? OR will be it just like on a public sidewalk where they really cant ask?
    I assume by "our house" you mean the capitol building. While OC, a demand for your license in the capitol would be made with lawful authority so you are compelled to produce it. It has lawful authority because you may not OC without the license in the capitol. Public sidewalk, and not in a school zone, the request is just that; a request. My opinion, IANAL and all that.
    Last edited by Brass Magnet; 11-04-2011 at 12:34 PM.
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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    I believe there is a misunderstanding about the RAS in a situation like this. Just because an act is illegal without a permit, does not create RAS to demand a permit. The act is also legal with the permit, so the officer has to have more info than a mere observation or suspicion. This is obviously my opinion but here is a court case that I believe states very clearly.

    Regalado v. State, 25 So. 3d 600 - Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 4th Dist. 2009
    "Despite the obvious potential danger to officers and the public by a person in possession of a concealed gun in a crowd, this is not illegal in Florida unless the person does not have a concealed weapons permit, a fact that an officer cannot glean by mere observation. Based upon our understanding of both Florida and United States Supreme Court precedent, stopping a person solely on the ground that the individual possesses a gun violates the Fourth Amendment."


    Think of it like a DL, an officer can't just stop you to see if you have it. There has to be something else going on to give RAS to stop you. Now they could consensually converse with you. But that's a different topic. And you should know how to handle that.
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 11-05-2011 at 12:39 AM.
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    Regular Member BROKENSPROKET's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    I believe there is a misunderstanding about the RAS in a situation like this. Just because an act is illegal without a permit, does not create RAS to demand a permit. The act is also legal with the permit, so the officer has to have more info than a mere observation or suspicion. This is obviously my opinion but here is a court case that I believe states very clearly.

    Regalado v. State, 25 So. 3d 600 - Fla: Dist. Court of Appeals, 4th Dist. 2009
    "Despite the obvious potential danger to officers and the public by a person in possession of a concealed gun in a crowd, this is not illegal in Florida unless the person does not have a concealed weapons permit, a fact that an officer cannot glean by mere observation. Based upon our understanding of both Florida and United States Supreme Court precedent, stopping a person solely on the ground that the individual possesses a gun violates the Fourth Amendment."


    Think of it like a DL, an officer can't just stop you to see if you have it. There has to be something else going on to give RAS to stop you. Now they could consensually converse with you. But that's a different topic. And you should know how to handle that.
    941.235 prohibits firearms in public buildings, so if you open carry in the Capitol, you would be subject to a misdemeanor arrest, unless you provided your CWL.

    Open Carry in the Capitol is PC that a crime has been committed, your defense is your permit.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    I disagree, as stated in the aforementioned case. The officer can't glean from observation that a crime has been committed. The act is legal with a permit, illegal without a permit. He has no way of knowing which is the case. He may question you, but has no basis to take it past a consensual observation to establish cause.

    To get even more technical and trivial, you don't have to provide any info that can be used against you as clarified in Hoffman vs United States. If you signed your application with that in mind, you didn't forego any rights.

    "where the Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination is involved the court has always construed its protection to ensure that an individual is not compelled to produce evidence which later may be used against him as an accused in a criminal action The protection does not merely encompass evidence which may lead to criminal conviction, but includes information which would furnish a link in the chain of evidence that could lead to prosecution, as well as evidence which an individual reasonably believes could be used against him in a criminal prosecution."
    [Hoffman v. United States, 341 U.S. 479, 486, 71 S.CT.814, 95L.Ed. 1, 18 (1951)]


    But again...this is my opinion, and not legal advice.
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 11-05-2011 at 01:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motofixxer View Post
    SNIP I disagree, as stated in the aforementioned case. The officer can't glean from observation that a crime has been committed.
    The federal circuits may be split on this. I recall a case out of (Georgia?) within the last few years of a gun-carrier getting into some sort of trouble. That court ruled that a permit is an affirmative defense. Meaning the presence of the gun created reasonable suspicion for a temporary seizure. I don't recall whether it was a criminal case or civil rights case. Don't recall anymore than I've said here, actually. The thing that stuck in my mind was the ruling went against us and made a permit/license an affirmative defense.

    A state case or federal case in the relevant state or federal circuit would be a better authority.

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    Founder's Club Member Brass Magnet's Avatar
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    Moto,

    Some of us were discussing this same thing before and we thought of it like this:

    OC is generally legal for everyone in Wisconsin, therefore an officer shouldn't have RAS to check a license.

    OC is generally illegal for everyone in the capitol building, therefore an officer probably has RAS to check CWL.

    If you think about it, a lot of situations work out in the same way in that if the act bring performed it's legal for the majority of people (our a very healthy minority) there's no RAS but if it's the opposite, there is.
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    Regular Member Badger Johnson's Avatar
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    Virginia Law also requires you give up certain rights to get the CHL. You can be asked to submit to testing at any time, for one thing. (alcohol and stuff).
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