PTs

So anyone been to PTs since this thread happened? I don't know if I posted this or not, but around the PTs in question...bars like putters, and oaces, etc...'heard' of 'me' and what happened and are all now agreeing they dont like 'guys with guns'. I was just curious how you've all been received in these places. I do appriciate the time those people took to write letters, and in actuality, come to my aid. I called for help, and help came. That's what I hoped this community would be about. I was disappointed by PTs so badly though I kinda stopped with this fight. They said we're welcome...just like a year ago before I started this whole thread. But has it mattered? Has anyone seen the difference? I still have not patronized this business since they embarrased me, and my date, after assuring me no problems would occur. It took over a month for them to respond, and they only did after you all came to my aid and posted your complaints. It's one of the few places with decent food near me. Anyone maybe wanna go with me? So I'm not alone. The bar tender really really offended me and embarrased me, as did their peeps in charge. Anyway, wanted to see if anyone had any more input before I just write this company off for good.

Thanks for your time again.

Lostlittlerobot said:

So anyone been to PTs since this thread happened? I don't know if I posted this or not, but around the PTs in question...bars like putters, and oaces, etc...'heard' of 'me' and what happened and are all now agreeing they dont like 'guys with guns'. I was just curious how you've all been received in these places. I do appriciate the time those people took to write letters, and in actuality, come to my aid. I called for help, and help came. That's what I hoped this community would be about. I was disappointed by PTs so badly though I kinda stopped with this fight. They said we're welcome...just like a year ago before I started this whole thread. But has it mattered? Has anyone seen the difference? I still have not patronized this business since they embarrased me, and my date, after assuring me no problems would occur. It took over a month for them to respond, and they only did after you all came to my aid and posted your complaints. It's one of the few places with decent food near me. Anyone maybe wanna go with me? So I'm not alone. The bar tender really really offended me and embarrased me, as did their peeps in charge. Anyway, wanted to see if anyone had any more input before I just write this company off for good.

Thanks for your time again.

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Corps like government move slowly. They have to have meetings to decide where they will hold the meeting and then get around everyones schedules and then come to some kind of a consensus. After that the edict comes down and then they have to appoint someone to handle it who writes up a report and then sets up any further meetings before taking action. The bottom line is you got a positive response and all seems to have worked out well in the end. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

TBG

The Big Guy said:

Corps like government move slowly. They have to have meetings to decide where they will hold the meeting and then get around everyones schedules and then come to some kind of a consensus. After that the edict comes down and then they have to appoint someone to handle it who writes up a report and then sets up any further meetings before taking action. The bottom line is you got a positive response and all seems to have worked out well in the end. Give them the benefit of the doubt.

TBG

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Concur.

However, in light of the earlier situation, perhaps make a friendly suggestion to Todd that a letter go out to advise everyone of this specific issue. It may have been addressed after the earlier incident, but as one note among the weekly batch of notes.

Lostlittlerobot said:

So anyone been to PTs since this thread happened? I don't know if I posted this or not, but around the PTs in question...bars like putters, and oaces, etc...'heard' of 'me' and what happened and are all now agreeing they dont like 'guys with guns'. I was just curious how you've all been received in these places. I do appriciate the time those people took to write letters, and in actuality, come to my aid. I called for help, and help came. That's what I hoped this community would be about. I was disappointed by PTs so badly though I kinda stopped with this fight. They said we're welcome...just like a year ago before I started this whole thread. But has it mattered? Has anyone seen the difference? I still have not patronized this business since they embarrased me, and my date, after assuring me no problems would occur. It took over a month for them to respond, and they only did after you all came to my aid and posted your complaints. It's one of the few places with decent food near me. Anyone maybe wanna go with me? So I'm not alone. The bar tender really really offended me and embarrased me, as did their peeps in charge. Anyway, wanted to see if anyone had any more input before I just write this company off for good.

Thanks for your time again.

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Here is my $.002. I am going out on a limb here and say no one will be more companionate about the PT issue than you are. You were the one that endured the embarrassment. I too was a 100% behind you and sent an e-mail to the corporate office. However not living or working in a town with PTs I never had been in one. I did not tell them that.

It would appear the problem is what I will call the follow up issue. The like-minded active open carry group is so small after making a gain in our favor some other issue comes up and the attention is turned to address that issue.

I am of the opinion most active pro-gun and 2a Americans are upstanding working taxpaying citizens. All of us have restrictions in our everyday life that hampers our ability to follow up like work, family, whatever.

There was an attempt to have a monthly lunch meet up. It appeared to be very difficult for more than 4 or 5 to make any one of them. I am suggesting let’s have a lunch at PTs the one that gave you so much grief. My weekends can be booked however, I will make a real effort with enough notice to ride the 130 mile round trip.

28kfps said:

Here is my $.002. I am going out on a limb here and say no one will be more companionate about the PT issue than you are. You were the one that endured the embarrassment. I too was a 100% behind you and sent an e-mail to the corporate office. However not living or working in a town with PTs I never had been in one. I did not tell them that.

It would appear the problem is what I will call the follow up issue. The like-minded active open carry group is so small after making a gain in our favor some other issue comes up and the attention is turned to address that issue.

I am of the opinion most active pro-gun and 2a Americans are upstanding working taxpaying citizens. All of us have restrictions in our everyday life that hampers our ability to follow up like work, family, whatever.

There was an attempt to have a monthly lunch meet up. It appeared to be very difficult for more than 4 or 5 to make any one of them. I am suggesting let’s have a lunch at PTs the one that gave you so much grief. My weekends can be booked however, I will make a real effort with enough notice to ride the 130 mile round trip.

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Although Saturdays are hard for me, I would make a special effort to be there to show them how we appreciate them coming around to our way of thinking. Good idea.

TBG

I am willing to do this (PT meet up). February weekends are open for me. I can also do it on a Friday evening. Anymore scheduling suggestions?

I never know when I am available. But if it winds up that I am, I will be there. I just can't help you decide when.

guns/alcohol

I will keep this short and sweet. OC'ers should try to be the best ambassadors possible. Going to eat dinner is great. Drinking alcohol while openly armed is just bad judgment and wrong. The guest and employees should be concerned with such a patron, and refuse service. Guns/alcohol should never mix. If you want to drink, leave the gun somewhere besides on your person. I understand that alcohol consumption was not the case in the first incident, but apparently the business has had this happen before, and as a business owner I completely understand they are allowing the employees and customers to be exposed to a potentially volatile situation.

I can do dinner Fridays after 6:30 pm or Saturdays after 5:30 pm, or lunch Sundays until about 4:00 pm. If anyone would like to have a meal at a PTs that would be my availability.

Oc4ever, are you as adamant about people driving after having a beer or a glass of wine with a meal? It's one thing to say that OCers are ambassadors and all of that, but it's ridiculous to say that bartenders and servers should refuse to serve alcohol to anyone who is carrying. Should they also refuse to serve anyone with a car in the parking lot?

I would like to attend the PT meetup as well. Its pretty hard to beat their hot wings.

oc4ever said:

I will keep this short and sweet. OC'ers should try to be the best ambassadors possible. Going to eat dinner is great. Drinking alcohol while openly armed is just bad judgment and wrong. The guest and employees should be concerned with such a patron, and refuse service. Guns/alcohol should never mix. If you want to drink, leave the gun somewhere besides on your person. I understand that alcohol consumption was not the case in the first incident, but apparently the business has had this happen before, and as a business owner I completely understand they are allowing the employees and customers to be exposed to a potentially volatile situation.

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While I agree with you on the subject, the law is very clear on this matter. I may not choose to drink while carrying but that is another persons business as long as they are in compliance with the law. I don't think that one glass of wine turns someone who is an otherwise lawful, good, upstanding citizen into a murderous maniac. If that is the case, I would argue that they were a maniac to begin with and there is no way to prevent them from doing harm to others if that is their intent (disarmed or otherwise). If the gun never leaves the holster and they aren't pounding shot after shot of tequila, I just don't see the big deal.

Could you please point me to an article where people legally carrying, drank, and did something stupid? I'm not saying that you are wrong but I have never heard of such an incident. People hotly debate "bar carry" in other states and I always calmly point them to our own where (seemingly) it has worked just fine.

Las Vegan said:

Oc4ever, are you as adamant about people driving after having a beer or a glass of wine with a meal? It's one thing to say that OCers are ambassadors and all of that, but it's ridiculous to say that bartenders and servers should refuse to serve alcohol to anyone who is carrying. Should they also refuse to serve anyone with a car in the parking lot?

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I couldnt agree with you more and this was also a topic at the lunch meeting I had with the PTs operations and security. We did all agree that drinking while carrying is no different then drinking then getting in your car and driving away. It is up to the person to know when they are at their limits, its was also stated they train their bar tenders and other employees to read into when a person is over indulging.

Yes alcohol and guns dont mix however, what we are all missing here is alcohol affects everyone differently, one could say anger and guns down mix just as easy. We are ambassadors and I would not hesitate to have a beer or two with my dinner, or lunch. I know my limits, I know how much I can drink. and here in Nevada you cant drink and drive just like you cant drink and carry. there is a legal BAC that mirror each other. If you are too intoxicated per law to carry, you are too intoxicated to drive.

to end this, I am all for going to PTs to have a lunch, dinner, what have you and PTs is more then willing to accommodate us, they even offered us their entire upstairs if we had a large enough group. I am available any time during the weekends Saturday through Monday, Friday after 630, i get off at 6, that goes for the rest of the week. I am all for this.

If no one has a problem with Sunday Feb. 19 I'll start a thread. That's the soonest I can attend a Sunday lunch meet up. I'm moving this weekend and IDPA is the second Sunday of the month.

If anyone has a PT's that they prefer let me know in this thread and I'll start a thread tomorrow.

oc4ever said:

I will keep this short and sweet. OC'ers should try to be the best ambassadors possible. Going to eat dinner is great. Drinking alcohol while openly armed is just bad judgment and wrong. The guest and employees should be concerned with such a patron, and refuse service. Guns/alcohol should never mix. If you want to drink, leave the gun somewhere besides on your person. I understand that alcohol consumption was not the case in the first incident, but apparently the business has had this happen before, and as a business owner I completely understand they are allowing the employees and customers to be exposed to a potentially volatile situation.

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So do you ensure that the waitress locks up your steak Knife should you decide to have a beer while enjoying dinner at the Outback?

Do you think that it is "just bad judgement and wrong if i have a deadly weapon (knife) in my hand or next to my plate whie enjoying my beer?

Can you cite how the knife/alcohol combo is any less of a potentaly volatile situation?

I agree with this statement : OC'ers should try to be the best ambassadors possible.
But to play Devils advocate, we want our firearm carry to be normalized right ? how does it get "normalized" if we do not conduct "normal" life while carrying.

I do not agree with this statement: Guns/alcohol should never mix.
If I have had drinks and my home is invaded, I am shooting. May not be that everyone can react correctly, but I do not believe that I, or you should give up your right to self defense because we are persuing happiness.

Slight nitpick:

Legal limit for driving is 0.08 -- legal limit for poession for a firearm out of your home is 0.10. The firearm law was not updated when the driving law was changed to keep federal funds.

In switzerland it is not uncommon for shooters to arrive at the range a hour or two early, share a bottle of wine, shoot a match (with no casualities) and then have dinner and continue drinking afterwards.

I don't support drunken carry, but a single drink with dinner does not drunk make. If you don't have enough self control to not over indulge then don't carry, but don't limit those of us who can.

guns and drinking

First ask yourself why you carry a gun. The best answer of course is to protect you and your family( because LEO's are never around when you need them). If this is the case, do you know any shooter that really shoots better after several beers? You may think you do, but in reality, your judgment and shot precision will/has deteriorated based on the alcohol consumed. Most DUI drivers "thought" they were driving pretty well until they were unluckily snagged by a LEO who just happened to see them screw-up while driving that one time.
Nobody is a choirboy here, but IMHO simultaneous guns and booze usage shows poor judgment, and lack of self control of the OC'er. I stand by my previous statement. Remember why you are carrying that gun, for self and family protection, right? You will probably never in your life have to use a gun, but if you do, you may only get the chance to get one clean good shot off to protect your family. Do you want that to be after a beer or two or three? If you miss the BG, and he kills a member of your family or someone else, is that going to be ok and a good excuse to have another drink? Did you see everything in the downrange background of your shot, including innocent parties? You have to ask yourself if the alcohol, slow or cloud your judgment, or are you just special and both shoot and drive better "after a few"?
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SDSG SAID:
"Could you please point me to an article where people legally carrying, drank, and did something stupid? I'm not saying that you are wrong but I have never heard of such an incident. People hotly debate "bar carry" in other states and I always calmly point them to our own where (seemingly) it has worked just fine. "

Well the answer is as close as your keyboard from the computer, the incidents of LEO's going and having a few drinks after work and doing something stupid with a gun happens all the time, in every city, in every state, time after time and year after year. Sometimes they get away with it and a cover-up occurs. Some don't and it makes the papers or news. Every LEO will tell you that guns and alcohol don't mix, they get to see the results of poor judgement with alcohol all the time on their job. Yet some LEO's still screw up because that same alcohol clouds their own judgment, and they think the laws and rules don't apply to them the more they drink.

OC4--

Yet you ignore the simple fact that in other locations of the world drinking before and after range shooting is the norm.

See here: http://www.swissrifles.com/shooting/

The Swiss take their marksmanship very seriously. If they can have a glass of wine before going to the range and still perform well, I think a Newcastle with my burger will go over just fine.

As stated, none of us support drunken carry (or at the least I hope none of us do), but to blanketly state that absolutely no alcohol what-so-ever is acceptable shows an overly simplistic view of the situation.

oc4ever said:

First ask yourself why you carry a gun. The best answer of course is to protect you and your family( because LEO's are never around when you need them).

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No. The best answer is "To know that I am able to protect myself and my family while going about my normal life".

I agree that OCers need to be aware of how their actions are seen by others while carrying so as to not hurt the image and cause regression to the cause, however, I also believe that if the goal is for OC to be perceived as "normal" then one must act "normal". If I would normally have a beer with my steak and then continue about my day, why should I become abnormal just because I carry my weapon? If it's legal, it's fine, anything else is just perception. You perceive it to be wrong, so people shouldn't do it. Antis perceive carrying a gun at all is wrong, so I guess we shouldn't do it. Both are legal when done properly.

oc4ever said:

SDSG SAID:
"Could you please point me to an article where people legally carrying, drank, and did something stupid? I'm not saying that you are wrong but I have never heard of such an incident. People hotly debate "bar carry" in other states and I always calmly point them to our own where (seemingly) it has worked just fine. "

Well the answer is as close as your keyboard from the computer, the incidents of LEO's going and having a few drinks after work and doing something stupid with a gun happens all the time, in every city, in every state, time after time and year after year. Sometimes they get away with it and a cover-up occurs. Some don't and it makes the papers or news. Every LEO will tell you that guns and alcohol don't mix, they get to see the results of poor judgement with alcohol all the time on their job. Yet some LEO's still screw up because that same alcohol clouds their own judgment, and they think the laws and rules don't apply to them the more they drink.

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So your answer is no, then? I'd like to read some actual examples for myself. Lawfully carrying citizen walks into a bar, boozes it up, and then decides to shoot an impromptu gallery of empty beer glasses?

Also, please keep in mind that this discussion was pertaining only to private citizens before your brought LEO's up. As much as I would like to believe that LEO's are the authority on gun safety, far too many examples point to the contrary.


As I said before, I dont drink while carrying but that is my choice - not the law. The issue is that this seems to be an emotional argument likened to "blood on the streets" with regards to legally carrying weapons in the first place. But, I'd be more than willing to see actual evidence and change my mind accordingly.

Kinoons said:

Slight nitpick:

Legal limit for driving is 0.08 -- legal limit for poession for a firearm out of your home is 0.10. The firearm law was not updated when the driving law was changed to keep federal funds.

In switzerland it is not uncommon for shooters to arrive at the range a hour or two early, share a bottle of wine, shoot a match (with no casualities) and then have dinner and continue drinking afterwards.

I don't support drunken carry, but a single drink with dinner does not drunk make. If you don't have enough self control to not over indulge then don't carry, but don't limit those of us who can.

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Good catch I should have looked it up before stating, emphasis added.

NRS 202.257 Possession of firearm when under influence of alcohol, controlled substance or other intoxicating substance; administration of evidentiary test; penalty; forfeiture of firearm.
1. It is unlawful for a person who:
a) Has a concentration of alcohol of 0.10 or more in his or her blood or breath; or
(b) Is under the influence of any controlled substance, or is under the combined influence of intoxicating liquor and a controlled substance, or any person who inhales, ingests, applies or otherwise uses any chemical, poison or organic solvent, or any compound or combination of any of these, to a degree which renders him or her incapable of safely exercising actual physical control of a firearm,
Ê to have in his or her actual physical possession any firearm. This prohibition does not apply to the actual physical possession of a firearm by a person who was within the person’s personal residence and had the firearm in his or her possession solely for self-defense.
2. Any evidentiary test to determine whether a person has violated the provisions of subsection 1 must be administered in the same manner as an evidentiary test that is administered pursuant to NRS 484C.160 to 484C.250, inclusive, except that submission to the evidentiary test is required of any person who is directed by a police officer to submit to the test. If a person to be tested fails to submit to a required test as directed by a police officer, the officer may direct that reasonable force be used to the extent necessary to obtain the samples of blood from the person to be tested, if the officer has reasonable cause to believe that the person to be tested was in violation of this section.
3. Any person who violates the provisions of subsection 1 is guilty of a misdemeanor.
4. A firearm is subject to forfeiture pursuant to NRS 179.1156 to 179.119, inclusive, only if, during the violation of subsection 1, the firearm is brandished, aimed or otherwise handled by the person in a manner which endangered others.
5. As used in this section, the phrase “concentration of alcohol of 0.10 or more in his or her blood or breath” means 0.10 gram or more of alcohol per 100 milliliters of the blood of a person or per 210 liters of his or her breath.
(Added to NRS by 1995, 2533; A 1999, 2470; 2003, 2565

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