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9mm or .45 cal?

J

j4l

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"A 45 is useless if you miss and then need 5 seconds to aim it again because you couldn't handle the recoil"....:banghead: :banghead: :rolleyes:

Again, with the interweb mythology. - If you move up to a real caliber like the .45, you'll find something of a reduction in felt recoil, not an increase.
.45 Doesnt over-penetrate any more, or less, than any other caliber. You can send .22 and .25 rounds through almost any wall in your house if you miss. Best idea- regardless of caliber= practice, practice, practice, until "miss" becomes a less likely concern.

And no, hollow-points wont make the round (in any caliber) less likely to overpenetrate non-human/organic materials. HP expands in flesh, and in fluids, in sheetrock, wood, glass, metal and the like it usually clogs up, and becomes what? Hardball. At which point it continues on it's merry old way until it runs out of energy to keep going forward. When it does that is entirely outside of your control, sooo...

As for 9 vs. .45, etc. Only thing you need to look at it is this: 100+ yrs. of proven combat reliability, world-wide. In current times- ask yourself why the military, and most police forces are trying to get as far away from 9mm as possible, as quickly as possible. Those handful of dept.s still carrying 9mm do so mostly due to budget limitations. Those that are currently issuing .40's are regretting it, and looking towards .45 or .357 Sig next chance they get.
 
MSC 45ACP

MSC 45ACP

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LRS76251 said:
Ok, I'm going to assume that you are a new shooter since you are asking this. First of all, as far as your friend's comment is concerned, it really doesn't matter what caliber you use as far as wall penetration goes because if you miss your target, most rounds that are currently in production (regardless of caliber) are going to penetrate through wallboard. The exception is frangible rounds. Caliber makes no difference. The most important factor when it comes to defensive shooting is to hit your target in a vital area (center mass, head, groin), not the caliber used. The differences in performance for modern defensive ammunition (Speer gold dot, Federal HST, Fed Tactical, Remington Golden Saber/GS Bonded, Winchester Ranger T or Bonded, Win PDX, Hornady, Corbon, etc) is not even worth considering on the civilian side provided you make good hits. In most cases, you aren't going to be shooting through car doors, etc and auto glass. Choose a sidearm in a caliber you can control and use any of the premium defensive loads that will function in your weapon. Even older designed defensive ammunition will get the job done provided you do your part. Try not to get all caught up in the caliber debate. You are wasting your time and energy doing that.

Also, please don't take this the wrong way. If you new to shooting, you may want to find yourself a competent instructor and get some training in the proper use of firearms. A competent instructor will get you started out on the right foot. You really don't want to be carrying a firearm unless you've had some type of proper training. Its more of a liability issue because what you don't know CAN get you in a lot of trouble legally. Nobody wants that. Carrying a firearm is a huge responsibility and its definitely your right to be able to defend yourself. Nobody wants to ever be in a shooting situation, but in today's society, you never know so get some training.
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+10,000

Well-put. I've been teaching since 1987 and have met more "experts" than I can count. Shot placement is EVERYTHING!
Do you know what Israeli (MOSSAD) assassins carry? .22 cal Berettas. Think about THAT for a while and let it sink in your head.

I'm a believer in .45 ACP and have been carrying one since 1983 whenever possible (except when we had to switch over to the 9mm Beretta in '86). As stated in another post about over-penetration... 9mm is a greater threat for that if you're shooting ball ammo, but there are self-defense rounds out there that are designed to stay inside whatever object they have been put. Frangible is a good choice for this.

Also stated in other posts... Find a COMPETENT instructor (with references) and learn what you can. Just because someone is "NRA-CERTIFIED" doesn't mean he's the best in town. I've met some good ones and some Knuckleheads (see definition in the Virginia pages).

If you live near me, I'll take you to the range and let YOU decide how much stuff you want to learn.

MSC
 
Marco

Marco

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230therapy

230therapy

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Do you really think that if it won't go through drywall it'll somehow penetrate clothing, flesh and bone?

Quality ammunition in either caliber is just fine for self-defense.
 
R

RetiredOC

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9mm or .45 cal?
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I read this thread title and immediately thought, "OH NO HE DIDN'T!"

Carry what ever you want. A 9 or .45 can pass through a "wall." (i really have no idea of what kind of material this hypothetical wall is made out of...)
 
SovereignAxe

SovereignAxe

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I've largely avoided this thread for the simple reason that the .45 vs 9mm is one of the oldest, tiredest dead horse conversations that's well past decomposition to the point where we're beating on the horse's bones...and we're well on our way to making glue.

That being said, I want to avoid saying too much about the abilities of the rounds, and mention economics. Obviously .45 is more powerful-there's no denying it and, if you're a competent shooter, the sacrifice in capacity isn't a big deal. And yes, I know you need to be a competent shot with both; 9mm requires competency because it lacks the stopping power-arguably balanced by capacity. But personally, I shoot 9mm simply because of money. As a broke college student working part time, I can't afford to put .45 in a gun regularly to even have a little fun with it, let alone be competent with it. 9mm Para is expensive enough, but it's the cheapest pistol ammo you can buy, short of Russian surplus Makarov or Tokarev ammo, so that's what I use.

When I graduate college and bring myself out of poverty, I'll upgrade to .45, probably in the form of an HK45 or 1911. But until then 9mm Para out of a Walther P99 is going to have to suffice. There are very good reasons both rounds have been around for 100+ years, and if you can afford to buy .45 ACP regularly, and feel you are competent shooting it, I highly recommend carrying it. Otherwise 9mm is no slouch despite its reputation.
 
MSC 45ACP

MSC 45ACP

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SovereignAxe said:
I've largely avoided this thread for the simple reason that the .45 vs 9mm is one of the oldest, tiredest dead horse conversations that's well past decomposition to the point where we're beating on the horse's bones...and we're well on our way to making glue.

That being said, I want to avoid saying too much about the abilities of the rounds, and mention economics. Obviously .45 is more powerful-there's no denying it and, if you're a competent shooter, the sacrifice in capacity isn't a big deal. And yes, I know you need to be a competent shot with both; 9mm requires competency because it lacks the stopping power-arguably balanced by capacity. But personally, I shoot 9mm simply because of money. As a broke college student working part time, I can't afford to put .45 in a gun regularly to even have a little fun with it, let alone be competent with it. 9mm Para is expensive enough, but it's the cheapest pistol ammo you can buy, short of Russian surplus Makarov or Tokarev ammo, so that's what I use.

When I graduate college and bring myself out of poverty, I'll upgrade to .45, probably in the form of an HK45 or 1911. But until then 9mm Para out of a Walther P99 is going to have to suffice. There are very good reasons both rounds have been around for 100+ years, and if you can afford to buy .45 ACP regularly, and feel you are competent shooting it, I highly recommend carrying it. Otherwise 9mm is no slouch despite its reputation.
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Best reasons I've heard YET!
Finances... Same reasons many of us can't go to dinners or breakfasts on a regular basis, especially if they're out of town.
I'm a disabled veteran on a fixed, once-a-month payday with 4 kids. Oldest is in her second year of college, 2nd one just starting college, 3rd just started HS and my son is 12 years old and able to drink a gallon of milk a day (if I let him).
I can't remember the last time I BBQ'd steaks on the grill...
 
carry for myself

carry for myself

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i use both. winter i usually carry .45 summer usually 9mm or .40 or .357sig or 10mm..........basically will willingly carry any round capable of stopping a threat. meaning 9mm and up in autos or .38 and up in revolvers.

the 9mm hollow point expands to the same size as a .45 ball round. with that said.......unless your carrying ball 9mm ammo.....it will do the trick. also with that said if your carrying hollow point .45 it will also do the trick, with more damage.

ask anyone who's been killed by a 9mm......it will put someone down.

now 15 rounds of 9mm hollow point is worth the same amount as 8 rounds of .45 any day and vise versa.

only upside 9mm has is by carrying 3 mags you have the capability of dropping triple the targets as you would with 3 mags out of a 1911. but if you need that much ammo anyway....you should be running for an AK /AR or some other type of combat rifle that suits the situation and ditching the handgun when you get to it :p

either way. if your competent with your weapon.......9mm vs .45 does not matter. plug them in the face....problem solved :p
 
robin.kevin

robin.kevin

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I suggest sticking with the 9mm... You will get more practice with it. I find more than not too many people carry .45 and shoot 9mm at the range, your carry gun should get just as much if not more range time then your other guns. That means if you shoot 9mm more due to cost of ammo, then carry the 9mm. Then again if ammo cost doesn't factor in then get what you like, but don't expect a .45 to be leaps and bounds better than 9mm. It does have a little more knock down than the 9mm but not the big of a difference when you consider you carry less rounds usually and also have more recoil which slows follow up shots.

Whatever you decide carry good hollow point defense ammo, that will help reduce bullets going through the target.
 
MSC 45ACP

MSC 45ACP

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I find myself repeating things... CALIBER doesn't matter (as much) as SHOT PLACEMENT!

Learn to shoot accurately and speed will come to you with practice. Do LOTS of dry-firing practice. Simply putting rounds downrange doesn't solve or prove anything. QUALITY practice is what counts.
In one of my earlier posts, I mentioned Israeli Intelligence Service using .22 cal Berettas.
They are very good at what they do.

I used to work for Naval Special Warfare as an Ordnance Contractor. SeALs use 9mm Sig-Sauer pistols.
They use 3" x 5" index cards for targets at ranges to 25 yards.
Watching them at the range was quite an education.

My personal choice after more than 20 years in law enforcement /anti-terrorism is .45ACP.
It just "feels right" to me, so that's what I shoot.
 
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J

j4l

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Well, you forget to mention that the .22's are what the Israelis often use for assassinations.
They sneak up, get in very very close, and pop em in the back or side of the noggin.
When they're doing hits like this, the other guy rarely sees it coming-so it's not as though they are engaging in firefights from 25m w/ .22's ... for that, most are carrying 1911A1s- in .45acp, ;)
 
A

Aknazer

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For the person saying that you will feel less recoil with a .45 it all depends on what guns you're comparing. If you properly compare like sized guns (such as the XDm 9 vs 40 vs 45 models) then the .45 will have more kick. It is when you compare a smaller 9 to a full size 45 that the smaller gun has more kick because there's simply less gun to absorb the recoil.

As for the caliber arguement, I view it like this. When even a .22 can be effective, using a smaller caliber is like trying to throw a penny to cover up a dime. It "can" be done with a penny, but a nickel or quarter gives you more room for error. So if I have the choice I would go with the largest caliber that I can reasonably handle (and that includes if your budget can handle it).
 
Operator_223

Operator_223

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Which caliber to carry?

I saw the debate of the OP 9 vs 45..................... well it isnt so simple as that really. There s lots of good advice here in this thread but let me throw my 2 cents in.

I would suggest as others have ..... but furthermore to carry the largest and most potent round that YOU can handle effectively (recoil, flash, second shot recovery etc.) and make sure it is the one you are most CONFIDENT in using.

Then practice your private parts off drawing from your holster, while laying in bed, while seated in your car in your garage or secluded location, exactly as if you were carrying your gun. In a car this usually means drawing from your concealed holster while sitting and having to deal with a seatbelt in the way.

I suggest using a laser shot marker such as the LaserLyte LT-9 Cartridge Laser Trainer (made in both .45 and 9 and 40 too I think) while drawing and doing dry fire practice. I know it really helps me a lot even when I am too busy to go to a range or am between paydays.

In short..... it dont matter what caliber you use if you are too late or if you miss. Only you can ferret out all the details for yourself.

Safety is surely important also, but if you miss and your round goes through the wall, it wont matter anyway if you are on your way down the to floor to soon become a chalk outline on the floor.

You'll never be perfect, but this is one industry where it pays off to try.

bottom line.......................... the first one to put shots on target the most accurately and quickest usually gets to live another day. Second place dont look too good in this business.
 
DangerClose

DangerClose

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I wish when talk of caliber and military comes up that the ammo used is mentioned as well. If I'm stuck with FMJ, then sure, 9mm makes me a bit sad. But mine has hollow points in it, so no sad.

If you're worried about walls, look up 40-grain Vmax rounds for .223 and see if it interests you.
 
SouthernBoy

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These debates and outright arguments are likely to continue long after many of us are in the ground pushing up daisies. And there are valid points for each side of the argument to consider. But there is one criteria, actually a set of criteria, that should be not only serve as your prime focus, but give you confidence when these questions and arguments arise.

Use the gun/caliber/load with which you can consistently, accurately, and quickly deliver rounds to target time after time. If this means a .45ACP, then that is what you should train with and use. If it happens to be a 9mm or a .40S&W, then spend your time and money training with that caliber. The point is, if you cannot do what was stated in the first sentence of this paragraph reliably and with confidence, you probably need to consider trying another caliber and/or gun.
 
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