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9mm or .45 cal?

carry for myself

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to squash it. the military carries 9mm ball ammo........it knocks em down lol or else they wouldn't use it. now VS .45......statistically YES .45 is better. nuff said. but ....... that's only in ballistics. price.....9mm wins. ammo capacity. 9mm wins. only thing .45 has over 9mm is it is bigger. but they both work. they will both introduce their target to god, face to face. simple as that.

what it really boils down to. is preference. my Taurus PT1911 in .45 has the same recoil as my Beretta 92FS in 9mm. I can blow the tops off of coke bottles at 15 yards with both of them rapid fire. so when i holster up. i pick up a RELIABLE GUN. whether it is my Beretta in 9mm, my Taurus PT1911 in .45, my glock 32 in .357sig, or my Sig 229 SAS in .40S&w........i pick up a reliable gun.....as long as your above .25 cal your round will be effective :)
 

45acpForMe

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While these caliber war threads sometimes get tiring, I always seem to learn something. The video interview had some good points to think about as far as 45acp and WWII as well as weather/clothing.

My biggest beef with 9vs45 threads is that people typically compare 9mm JHP to 45 ball ammo. It hasn't happened as much in this thread but a few instances are there. Two things, always compare ball/ball and JHP/JHP. Also for most of the balistics test that show 9mm just-as-good-balistically-as 45acp remember that they use +P or +P+ 9mm ammo. So if you decide to choose 9mm fine but use the same ammo that they get those results with. I think you will find that with the +P+ ammo the felt recoil will be higher than Walmart's cheapest. (as well as price)

I am firepower-jealous of many 9mm handguns and went looking for some higher "normal" capacity 45acp to ease my conscience. I found FNP-45 at 15+1 and Para Big Hawg at 15+1. At least I feel somewhat better than the usual 1911 7/8+1. :)

For me personally the choice was easy but when I was researching different guns I shot some 9mm and 40S&W guns and did not like their felt recoil as much as 45acp. I do admit that cost these days has become a bigger factor since prices continue to go up so shoot what you shoot best and enjoy these threads for what you can glean from everyone elses experiences.
 
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MSC 45ACP

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For the person saying that you will feel less recoil with a .45 it all depends on what guns you're comparing. If you properly compare like sized guns (such as the XDm 9 vs 40 vs 45 models) then the .45 will have more kick. It is when you compare a smaller 9 to a full size 45 that the smaller gun has more kick because there's simply less gun to absorb the recoil.

As for the caliber arguement, I view it like this. When even a .22 can be effective, using a smaller caliber is like trying to throw a penny to cover up a dime. It "can" be done with a penny, but a nickel or quarter gives you more room for error. So if I have the choice I would go with the largest caliber that I can reasonably handle (and that includes if your budget can handle it).

Mules and Women "Kick"
Firearms recoil...

:)
 

MSC 45ACP

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Well, you forget to mention that the .22's are what the Israelis often use for assassinations.
They sneak up, get in very very close, and pop em in the back or side of the noggin.
When they're doing hits like this, the other guy rarely sees it coming-so it's not as though they are engaging in firefights from 25m w/ .22's ... for that, most are carrying 1911A1s- in .45acp, ;)

Knowing some of these folks personally, I can tell you that you're wrong. They don't get THAT close for these jobs. they don't want to get close enough to get any "stuff" on themselves or close enough to touch the person. If they get THAT close, they may as well use a garotte or knife rather than the .22 cal.

If you are shooting someone at "25m" as you stated above, you're MURDERING someone.
That's going to be pretty hard to plead "self defense" at that distance. Although many of us are proficient with a pistol at 25 YARDS,
we wouldn't consider a BG much of a threat at that distance.
 

carry for myself

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Knowing some of these folks personally, I can tell you that you're wrong. They don't get THAT close for these jobs. they don't want to get close enough to get any "stuff" on themselves or close enough to touch the person. If they get THAT close, they may as well use a garotte or knife rather than the .22 cal.

If you are shooting someone at "25m" as you stated above, you're MURDERING someone.
That's going to be pretty hard to plead "self defense" at that distance. Although many of us are proficient with a pistol at 25 YARDS,
we wouldn't consider a BG much of a threat at that distance.

+1

i train at 50 yards...........i train at 25 yards.....but 99.9% of the time i train at 7 yards. if they are further away then that. i can still get away.......

a News report i saw at a police academy showed a officer standing 15 feet away from another officer. they made him charge said standing officer and the result was the LEO was only able to un-holster and fire 1 shot before the attacker reached him. thats from 15 feet. meaning it only takes 2.3 seconds to charge that distance.........now thats just under 6 yards. shooting someone at 25m.......unless they are unloading an AK in your direction. is usually not YET warranted .
 

SovereignAxe

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Knowing some of these folks personally, I can tell you that you're wrong. They don't get THAT close for these jobs. they don't want to get close enough to get any "stuff" on themselves or close enough to touch the person. If they get THAT close, they may as well use a garotte or knife rather than the .22 cal.

If you are shooting someone at "25m" as you stated above, you're MURDERING someone.
That's going to be pretty hard to plead "self defense" at that distance. Although many of us are proficient with a pistol at 25 YARDS,
we wouldn't consider a BG much of a threat at that distance.

you two need to read Without Remorse by Tom Clancy. John Clark goes and kills a bunch of drug dealers around Baltimore with a suppressed, .22LR converted 1911. It'll give you a good idea of what may be possible with a .22 pistol.
 

matt2636

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"the 9mm hollow point expands to the same size as a .45 ball round."

and theres your answer right there. hollow points were made for expansion and just like right here people say it will expand to .45 or larger. guess what a .45 fmj is already at .45! and now you have HP .45 ammo! omg i bet it expands up to .45 or larger. just look at the history of why the .45 was created in the first place. your good now with good hollow points. im just sayin this statment kills me. its like buying a gun you have to make modifications to to get it to function right. do you smell what the rock is cookin here?
 

carry for myself

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"the 9mm hollow point expands to the same size as a .45 ball round."

and theres your answer right there. hollow points were made for expansion and just like right here people say it will expand to .45 or larger. guess what a .45 fmj is already at .45! and now you have HP .45 ammo! omg i bet it expands up to .45 or larger. just look at the history of why the .45 was created in the first place. your good now with good hollow points. im just sayin this statment kills me. its like buying a gun you have to make modifications to to get it to function right. do you smell what the rock is cookin here?

well 9mm is still alot better than lets say .......38 lol Boston PD carried 9mm for 10 years before moving up to the .40 because of this........an officer in the early 90's *when they still carried wheel guns* shot a large man *400lbs+* 6 times with his .38............reloaded and shot him 5 more times, not one single round penetrated deep enough to move past the deep fat tissue and hit anything that would slow him down ,another officer popped him with a 12 gauge and put him down........the NEXT DAY they switched to 9mm which proved highly effective. including the fact that it carried 15+ rounds........this story was told to me by a Lt. with the Dover police when i made a comment about maybe trading my 9mm for a .38 revolver.

plain and simple ......45 beats 9mm all day long....but 9mm beats 38, .380 .25 .32 and .22 every day of the week and it is HIGHLY lethal.....so yes 45 is better but i wouldnt turn down a 9mm in a SD situation any day of thw eek
 
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j4l

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to squash it. the military carries 9mm ball ammo........it knocks em down lol or else they wouldn't use it. now VS .45......statistically YES .45 is better. nuff said. but ....... that's only in ballistics. price.....9mm wins. ammo capacity. 9mm wins. only thing .45 has over 9mm is it is bigger. but they both work. they will both introduce their target to god, face to face. simple as that.

what it really boils down to. is preference. my Taurus PT1911 in .45 has the same recoil as my Beretta 92FS in 9mm. I can blow the tops off of coke bottles at 15 yards with both of them rapid fire. so when i holster up. i pick up a RELIABLE GUN. whether it is my Beretta in 9mm, my Taurus PT1911 in .45, my glock 32 in .357sig, or my Sig 229 SAS in .40S&w........i pick up a reliable gun.....as long as your above .25 cal your round will be effective :)

Actually, no. Our military carries it because NATO carries it, and they wanted us to be on the same "sheet of music" logistics-wise. -(as if Jacques, while retreating, would ask the G.I.'s he passes on his way to the rear for some ammo that wont load into his sidearm... :rolleyes:) And the Italians got a nice little contract out of the arrangement. They most certainly DID NOT choose to drop the round/sidearms that worked for them for the better part of 70+ years,without fail, because the 9mm was somehow a close match, or a better choice.
 

j4l

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"the 9mm hollow point expands to the same size as a .45 ball round."

and theres your answer right there. hollow points were made for expansion and just like right here people say it will expand to .45 or larger. guess what a .45 fmj is already at .45! and now you have HP .45 ammo! omg i bet it expands up to .45 or larger. just look at the history of why the .45 was created in the first place. your good now with good hollow points. im just sayin this statment kills me. its like buying a gun you have to make modifications to to get it to function right. do you smell what the rock is cookin here?

True- BUT- folks place entirely too much faith in "good" hollow points. The reality of that is simply that humans are not blocks of gelatin in a controlled-environment lab- sometimes they expand, sometimes they dont, and even when they do expand, they dont go in deep enough before doing so, to do any real damage.
Also, we arent firing test-barrels, with ideal rates of twist and lengths for the given load, at one another, are we?
Marketing hype has gotten way beyond out of hand, and the surprising number of people to buy into it is frightening sometimes.
When they dont expand as marketed, they're what? Hardball.
 

matt2636

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well 9mm is still alot better than lets say .......38 lol Boston PD carried 9mm for 10 years before moving up to the .40 because of this........an officer in the early 90's *when they still carried wheel guns* shot a large man *400lbs+* 6 times with his .38............reloaded and shot him 5 more times, not one single round penetrated deep enough to move past the deep fat tissue and hit anything that would slow him down ,another officer popped him with a 12 gauge and put him down........the NEXT DAY they switched to 9mm which proved highly effective. including the fact that it carried 15+ rounds........this story was told to me by a Lt. with the Dover police when i made a comment about maybe trading my 9mm for a .38 revolver.

plain and simple ......45 beats 9mm all day long....but 9mm beats 38, .380 .25 .32 and .22 every day of the week and it is HIGHLY lethal.....so yes 45 is better but i wouldnt turn down a 9mm in a SD situation any day of thw eek

cant argue there. it was a 400 + lb man though. thats a lot of meat. if i were you i would judge your caliber of choice just off of that senerio. thats why we practice two to the chest one to the head aka a failure drill. i get what your saying though
 

matt2636

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True- BUT- folks place entirely too much faith in "good" hollow points. The reality of that is simply that humans are not blocks of gelatin in a controlled-environment lab- sometimes they expand, sometimes they dont, and even when they do expand, they dont go in deep enough before doing so, to do any real damage.
Also, we arent firing test-barrels, with ideal rates of twist and lengths for the given load, at one another, are we?
Marketing hype has gotten way beyond out of hand, and the surprising number of people to buy into it is frightening sometimes.
When they dont expand as marketed, they're what? Hardball.

i agree. but would you rather over penetrate or penetrate not enough? i dont believe they use "test barrels" to test ballistics of bullets. they use a actual firearm like a colt 1911 5inch. something standard. cause they do make "short barrel rounds" anything from like a 3.5 inch barrel and lower and they are usually +p or +p+ cause your giving up barrel length. and the twist is usually the same. like in .45s i dont think i have seen a .45 thats not a 1/16 twist. even short barrel ones i believe are like that. the test barrel your talking about is prolly like to test the pressure i think is what your talking about. but would the twist rate be a varible in expansion? sure. not a big one but sure. you could argue all day about bullet expansion even with the experts that make them and guess what. you could both agree on the conclusion not everything is 100% until its actually 100%. there to many varibles to include.
 

230therapy

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"the 9mm hollow point expands to the same size as a .45 ball round."

and theres your answer right there. hollow points were made for expansion and just like right here people say it will expand to .45 or larger. guess what a .45 fmj is already at .45! and now you have HP .45 ammo! omg i bet it expands up to .45 or larger. just look at the history of why the .45 was created in the first place. your good now with good hollow points. im just sayin this statment kills me. its like buying a gun you have to make modifications to to get it to function right. do you smell what the rock is cookin here?

The presumption here is that the 45 caliber FMJ bullet makes a permanent wound channel .45" in diameter. It does not. The flesh flows around the rounded nose of the bullet and the permanent channel is something like .30" (I have to find the data on that, but it was published in one of the FBI studies). 9x19mm FMJ will be have similarly, though the diameter of the permanent wound channel will be less. Actual wound channel diameters will tend to equal the diameter of the flat point on wad cutter, semi-wad cutter, and truncated cone bullets. When bullets expand, all that typically happens with the mushroom shape is to make a bigger FMJ round nose bullet.

From "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness", page 9 (citations removed so please review original document):

Further, the temporary cavity is caused by the tissue being stretched away from the permanent cavity, not being destroyed. By definition, a cavity is a space18 in which nothing exists. A temporary cavity is only a temporary space caused by tissue being pushed aside. That same space then disappears when the tissue returns to its original configuration.
Frequently, forensic pathologists cannot distinguish the wound track caused by a hollow point bullet (large temporary cavity) from that caused by a solid bullet (very small temporary cavity). There may be no physical difference in the wounds. If there is no fragmentation, remote damage due to temporary cavitation may be minor even with high velocity rifle projectiles. Even those who have espoused the significance of temporary cavity agree that it is not a factor in handgun wounds:

"In the case of low-velocity missiles, e.g., pistol bullets, the bullet produces a direct path of destruction with very little lateral extension within the surrounding tissues. Only a small temporary cavity is produced. To cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly. The amount of kinetic energy lost in tissue by a pistol bullet is insufficient to cause remote injuries produced by a high velocity rifle bullet."

The reason is that most tissue in the human target is elastic in nature. Muscle, blood vessels, lung, bowels, all are capable of substantial stretching with minimal damage. Studies have shown that the outward velocity of the tissues in which the temporary cavity forms is no more than one tenth of the velocity of the projectile. This is well within the elasticity limits of tissue such as muscle, blood vessels, and lungs, Only inelastic tissue like liver, or the extremely fragile tissues of the brain, would show significant damage due to temporary cavitation.

Finally, they talk about "critical wounding components":

The critical wounding components for handgun ammunition, in order of importance, are penetration and permanent cavity.33 The bullet must penetrate sufficiently to pass through vital organs and be able to do so from less than optimal angles. For example, a shot from the side through an arm must penetrate at least 10-12 inches to pass through the heart. A bullet fired from the front through the abdomen must penetrate about 7 inches in a slender adult just to reach the major blood vessels in the back of the abdominal cavity. Penetration must be sufficiently deep to reach and pass through vital organs, and the permanent cavity must be large enough to maximize tissue destruction and consequent hemorrhaging.

Several design approaches have been made in handgun ammunition which are intended to increase the wounding effectiveness of the bullet. Most notable of these is the use of a hollow point bullet designed to expand on impact.

Expansion accomplishes several things. On the positive side, it increases the frontal area of the bullet and thereby increases the amount of tissue disintegrated in the bullet’’s path. On the negative side, expansion limits penetration. It can prevent the bullet from penetrating to vital organs, especially if the projectile is of relatively light mass and the penetration must be through several inches of fat, muscle, or clothing.34

Increased bullet mass will increase penetration. Increased velocity will increase penetration but only until the bullet begins to deform, at which point increased velocity decreases penetration. Permanent cavity can be increased by the use of expanding bullets, and/or larger diameter bullets, which have adequate penetration. However, in no case should selection of a bullet be made where bullet expansion is necessary to achieve desired performance.35 Handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60-70% of the time at best. Damage to the hollow point by hitting bone, glass, or other intervening obstacles can prevent expansion. Clothing fibers can wrap the nose of the bullet in a cocoon like manner and prevent expansion. Insufficient impact velocity caused by short barrels and/or longer range will prevent expansion, as will simple manufacturing variations. Expansion must never be the basis for bullet selection, but considered a bonus when, and if, it occurs. Bullet selection should be determined based on penetration first, and the unexpanded diameter of the bullet second, as that is all the shooter can reliably expect.

It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.36

Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified.

An issue that must be addressed is the fear of over penetration widely expressed on the part of law enforcement. The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated. Any review of law enforcement shootings will reveal that the great majority of shots fired by officers do not hit any subjects at all. It should be obvious that the relatively few shots that do hit a subject are not somehow more dangerous to bystanders than the shots that miss the subject entirely.
Also, a bullet that completely penetrates a subject will give up a great deal of energy doing so. The skin on the exit side of the body is tough and flexible. Experiments have shown that it has the same resistance to bullet passage as approximately four inches of muscle tissue.37

Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness, and needlessly endanger the lives of the law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough.


"Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness"
Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT FBI ACADEMY QUANTICO, VIRGINIA July 14, 1989
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm



Next, here are links to performance data (data is old and should be updated):

9x19mm:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm

45 ACP:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

Also read:

"The Myth of Energy Transfer":
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

"GUN TESTS Magazine Unqualified to Evaluate Personal Defense Ammunition"
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs4.htm

Several years ago, a wound ballistics researcher noticed that during autopsy of fatal gunshot victims bullets were routinely found just underneath the skin at the expected point of exit. The bullet’s wound track simply ended just below the skin. Subsequent investigation revealed that unshored skin where the bullet would normally exit the body offers great resistance to bullet passage. In order to pass through, a bullet must overcome the elasticity of the skin and tear the skin to exit. Researchers found that in order for a bullet to exit skin, it must possess the equivalent momentum required to penetrate approximately four inches of muscle tissue. What this means is, in order for a bullet to pass completely through a human torso that is 11 inches deep, the bullet must be capable of penetrating at least 15 inches or more of soft tissue.
This hold-back effect of the skin has been observed in shootings. One shooting involved a gang member who’d been accidentally shot in the neck by a 9mm 124 grain Federal JHP bullet. The bullet passed through about 5 inches of soft tissue in the victim’s neck, exited near his shoulder and continued on to strike his girlfriend in her back. The expanded bullet was recovered when paramedics began treating the girlfriend, and the bullet simply fell out of the superficial wound and onto the floor. The bullet from this particular cartridge normally penetrates approximately 9 inches of standard gelatin.
Skin plays a role in bullet exit, not bullet entry. When a bullet enters the body, it crushes a hole in skin. However, when a bullet exits the body, it tears unshored skin (skin that is not in contact with a backing object). To prove this to yourself, the next time you are getting ready to open a package of ground beef for a meal, press your index finger into the plastic wrapping that is in contact with the meat. You won’t have to press too far before your finger puts a hole through the wrapping. Next, after you’ve removed the plastic wrap, try to poke your index finger through a single layer with no backing. You’ll notice that the plastic wrap will stretch much further than it did the first time before your finger pops through. This simple experiment involving plastic food wrapping is analogous to the role skin plays in retaining a bullet inside the body.






Additional resources:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
 
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j4l

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Amen.

"Increased bullet mass will increase penetration. Increased velocity will increase penetration but only until the bullet begins to deform, at which point increased velocity decreases penetration."

230 grains of J. Browning's happy pills, nothing less, when possible. ;)



"Expansion must never be the basis for bullet selection, but considered a bonus when, and if, it occurs."

Exactly what I was saying above.

"The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated."

Yup.
 

230therapy

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Amen.

"Increased bullet mass will increase penetration. Increased velocity will increase penetration but only until the bullet begins to deform, at which point increased velocity decreases penetration."

230 grains of J. Browning's happy pills, nothing less, when possible. ;)



"Expansion must never be the basis for bullet selection, but considered a bonus when, and if, it occurs."

Exactly what I was saying above.

"The concern that a bullet would pass through the body of a subject and injure an innocent bystander is clearly exaggerated."

Yup.

Let's not cherry-pick some information and use that to justify a position.

Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified.

What the data is really saying is that cartridge powder loads and bullets may be tuned for human bodies. Properly tuned for the particular target bullets will behave in certain ways that can be measured. Mass of the bullet is clearly important, as is velocity. They must be balanced properly. A 9x19mm JHP can be more effective in the human body than 45 ACP...and vice versa. Fortunately, there is a range of effectiveness for humans that is not exceptionally narrow. Many loads and bullets fall within that range; it's just a matter of cartridge selection for the gun you will be using.
 
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DangerClose

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Behold! The man-stopping power of the .45!

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52912763-78/police-accidently-range-dad.html.csp
A 16-year-old boy is expected to make a full recovery after being accidently shot by his dad at a gun range.

The round hit one of the teen’s fingers then his abdomen. The boy was transported to a hospital in good condition. Police said the round was recovered without any substantial surgery.
http://westvalley.fox13now.com/news/news/64551-teen-shot-stomach-father-was-putting-gun-away
Sgt. Cooper says the wound does not appear to be life threatening.

"His son wasn't seriously hurt. He didn't require any surgery," said Cooper.
 

Brimstone

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Shot placement is the biggest factor. Training is key and it is much cheaper to train with 9mm. If you are going to be putting thousands of rounds down range every year the 9mm is the way to go. Increased accuracy plus more rounds per magazine is a winning combination.
 

carry for myself

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Shot placement is the biggest factor. Training is key and it is much cheaper to train with 9mm. If you are going to be putting thousands of rounds down range every year the 9mm is the way to go. Increased accuracy plus more rounds per magazine is a winning combination.

Agreed, I do carry a .45. But I also carry a 9mm. I can make a threat dead in two shots with both , because I spend all of my spare time blowing holes in targets. Just a question of which one I can reach first
 

matt2636

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The presumption here is that the 45 caliber FMJ bullet makes a permanent wound channel .45" in diameter. It does not. The flesh flows around the rounded nose of the bullet and the permanent channel is something like .30" (I have to find the data on that, but it was published in one of the FBI studies). 9x19mm FMJ will be have similarly, though the diameter of the permanent wound channel will be less. Actual wound channel diameters will tend to equal the diameter of the flat point on wad cutter, semi-wad cutter, and truncated cone bullets. When bullets expand, all that typically happens with the mushroom shape is to make a bigger FMJ round nose bullet.

From "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness", page 9 (citations removed so please review original document):



Finally, they talk about "critical wounding components":




"Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness"
Special Agent UREY W. PATRICK
FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT FBI ACADEMY QUANTICO, VIRGINIA July 14, 1989
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm



Next, here are links to performance data (data is old and should be updated):

9x19mm:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm

45 ACP:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

Also read:

"The Myth of Energy Transfer":
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

"GUN TESTS Magazine Unqualified to Evaluate Personal Defense Ammunition"
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs4.htm








Additional resources:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm



yes and no. your still hitting .45 cal worth of tissue/bone/tendons/nerves as opposed to a 9mm with the same entry point. so if a 9mm barley missed an artery a .45 will hit it. besides a fmj in .45 acts somewhat like a hollow point cause when it hits usually the nose starts to flatten like a wadcutter. you dont bleed much out of a entry point anyway cause the bullets creats a vaccume soooo the entry doesnt really matter.
 

j4l

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Let's not cherry-pick some information and use that to justify a position.



What the data is really saying is that cartridge powder loads and bullets may be tuned for human bodies. Properly tuned for the particular target bullets will behave in certain ways that can be measured. Mass of the bullet is clearly important, as is velocity. They must be balanced properly. A 9x19mm JHP can be more effective in the human body than 45 ACP...and vice versa. Fortunately, there is a range of effectiveness for humans that is not exceptionally narrow. Many loads and bullets fall within that range; it's just a matter of cartridge selection for the gun you will be using.

Exactly how does one extract that interpretation from the paragraph you just quoted? ????

And, apart from actually testing a round in a human (ie: going out and shooting someone with it) how, exactly, do you propose they "tune" a given round, in any caliber/velocity/m-e level, for a "human" body?
A bullet isnt a smart-weapon, it has no bloody idea if it's hitting a person, a goat, a deer, or a plywood wall. It merely does what physics make it do, based on its physical composition, velocity with which it hits, etc.
There are far too many variables at play here to even remotely tune a bullet to any particular action- on a human body, or anything else.
 
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