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9mm or .45 cal?

since9

Campaign Veteran
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Jan 14, 2010
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Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
There are far too many variables at play here to even remotely tune a bullet to any particular action- on a human body, or anything else.

Not at all, and you said so yourself: "It merely does what physics make it do, based on its physical composition, velocity with which it hits, etc.[/quote]

Engineers design rounds using physics. If it's a home defense round, it's designed for maximum stopping power (both impact and damage) for its calibur while minimizing over-penetration.
 

carry for myself

Regular Member
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May 1, 2011
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544
Location
Maine
if i had it my way i would carry my Ruger Alaskan in .500 S&W. which has been known to drop 900lb Kodiak's in 1 round. however any SD shooting with that gun would provoke a highly un-friendly response from whatever DA picked up the case :p

soooo until that day where i can carry my bear gun comes around i will carry whatever caliber is is 9mm+ has the highest round carrying capacity, and most certainly in a firearm of good standing and reputation that will not jam. misfire and is hella-accurate.

and that's about all i need. 8 rounds of 9mm will do the trick. 8 rounds of anything 9mm or above will usually do the trick. so calibers dont really matter. as long as i have a good sight picture, a working trigger finger and a acceptable weapon. feed me 9mm, .40 .45 .357 sig 10mm or .357 mag and ill eat it up :)
 

RetiredOC

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Dec 21, 2009
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if i had it my way i would carry my Ruger Alaskan in .500 S&W. which has been known to drop 900lb Kodiak's in 1 round. however any SD shooting with that gun would provoke a highly un-friendly response from whatever DA picked up the case :p

Are there ANY cases out there or any sources to support claims similar to this? Deadly force is deadly force. I've seen plenty of people on internet forums talk about, DON'T CARRY A BIG GUN OR YOU'LL GO TO JAIL IF YOU SHOOT, DON'T SCORE EXPERT WHILE SHOOTING IN THE MILITARY OR YOU'LL GO TO JAIL IF YOU SHOOT, DON'T MODIFY THE TRIGGER ON YOUR GUN OR YOU'LL GO TO JAIL IF YOU SHOOT, DON'T PUT A LASER ON YOUR HANDGUN OR YOU'LL GO TO JAIL IF YOU HAVE TO SHOOT.

Deadly force is deadly force, it's either justified or it's not.
 

Aknazer

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Joined
Mar 6, 2011
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California
Are there ANY cases out there or any sources to support claims similar to this? Deadly force is deadly force. I've seen plenty of people on internet forums talk about, DON'T CARRY A BIG GUN OR YOU'LL GO TO JAIL IF YOU SHOOT, DON'T SCORE EXPERT WHILE SHOOTING IN THE MILITARY OR YOU'LL GO TO JAIL IF YOU SHOOT, DON'T MODIFY THE TRIGGER ON YOUR GUN OR YOU'LL GO TO JAIL IF YOU SHOOT, DON'T PUT A LASER ON YOUR HANDGUN OR YOU'LL GO TO JAIL IF YOU HAVE TO SHOOT.

Deadly force is deadly force, it's either justified or it's not.

In OK the CC law states that you can't carry anything larger than .45 caliber. So at least in OK you would go to jail if you were to carry a .500. Especially since the only way to carry is to CC.
 

RetiredOC

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Joined
Dec 21, 2009
Messages
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In OK the CC law states that you can't carry anything larger than .45 caliber. So at least in OK you would go to jail if you were to carry a .500. Especially since the only way to carry is to CC.

where do people get this stuff?

sent from my phone, excuse my grammar/spelling errors
 

SpringerXDacp

New member
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
3,341
Location
Burton, Michigan
where do people get this stuff?

sent from my phone, excuse my grammar/spelling errors

Perhaps from here:

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/oklahoma.pdf

Any concealed handgun when carried in a manner authorized by the provisions of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act, Sections 1 through 25 of this act, when loaded with any ammunition which is either a restricted bullet as defined by Section 1289.19 of Title 21 of the Oklahoma Statutes or is larger than .45 caliber or is otherwise prohibited by law shall be deemed a prohibited weapon for purposes of the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act.
 

SpringerXDacp

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Burton, Michigan
Shot placement is the biggest factor. Training is key and it is much cheaper to train with 9mm. If you are going to be putting thousands of rounds down range every year the 9mm is the way to go. Increased accuracy plus more rounds per magazine is a winning combination.

Yup this. Even carrying a 50 BMG or 20mm Vulcan doesn't mean squat if you miss your intended target.
 

RetiredOC

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Dec 21, 2009
Messages
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I thought the same thing. "Here is another guy who is just going to make sh!t up"

I stand corrected and my apologies.

Well he never did provide his cite for his claim so don't feel too bad. But yea, I'm very surprised that this is actually a law.

sent from my phone, excuse my grammar/spelling errors
 

scouser

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
1,341
Location
804, VA
carry for myself said:
if i had it my way i would carry my Ruger Alaskan in .500 S&W. which has been known to drop 900lb Kodiak's in 1 round. however any SD shooting with that gun would provoke a highly un-friendly response from whatever DA picked up the case :p
....

I don't know what one of these would do to a human, but a couple of weeks ago a friend of mine had a "make as much noise as you can with firearms day" on his property. One person had a .500 and set up a catering quantity sized can of baked beans (I think it was about a gallon of baked beans in that can) on a tree stump about 10 feet in front of him. The rest of us stood well back and watched with a sense of 'just how bad will this can look after he fires'.
The timeline went something like
Silence .. Aim .. Fire ... Shooter crying out "OMG I'm covered in beans". At least that is what I think he was saying over the noise of the rest of us laughing at him. We are now on the lookout for more large cans of beans for next time. The only unfortunate part of it all was that no one videoed it.
 

jwinkeler

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
88
Location
Centreville, Va
i take 9 because i KNOW i can connect with it more accurately then 45, plus its cheaper and federal 9BPLE is the 9mm cartridge he(massad) reccomended right?
 

45acpForMe

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Nov 21, 2008
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Location
Yorktown, Virginia, USA
i take 9 because i KNOW i can connect with it more accurately then 45, plus its cheaper and federal 9BPLE is the 9mm cartridge he(massad) reccomended right?

If you watch the second video in the thread his quote is that "9mm is an impotent manstopper"! ;-) His reference was when the hollowpoint gets clogged and doesn't expand that 45acp is better.

Just like all the comparisons Ball/Ball and JHP/JHP 45acp makes a bigger hole than 9mm. So Mr. Ayoob carries both but recommends 45acp for cold weather when people are wearing more clothes and the cold can restrict their bloodflow.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
Well he never did provide his cite for his claim so don't feel too bad. But yea, I'm very surprised that this is actually a law.

sent from my phone, excuse my grammar/spelling errors
Given that I'm posting from my phone most days and my "cite" is a paperback copy of gun laws I don't feel bad about not initially giving a cite. I didn't give a cite once asked because this is my first time checking the thread since I stated it was law.

Sorry that I didn't feel like running around the internet and trying to find, copy, and paste the cite for it from my phone in the initial post. /sarcasm
 
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since9

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Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA
So Mr. Ayoob carries both but recommends 45acp for cold weather when people are wearing more clothes and the cold can restrict their bloodflow.

Well, a shot from any round will get their blood flowing again... :rolleyes:

The FBI asked this same question a couple of decades ago when it was looking to replace their .38's with either a 9mm or the .45. They were also doing some testing on the 10mm (.40), so they included it in their testing.

They made some interesting findings and came to some interesting conclusions:

1. "Knockdown power" is largely a myth.

2. "Hydroshock" is largely a myth.

3. Penetrating deeply enough to reach the vital blood vessels running along the spine, behind the gut, is a critical factor.

4. Permanent cavity size is a critical factor.

5. Penetration is positively correlated with both bullet mass and velocity.

6. Higher velocities of hollow points actually reduce penetration, as the higher velocities result in significantly greater expansion.

7. The .45's greater mass and diameter results in a larger cavity, but the .40 has greater penetration.

8. The FBI determined that a minimum average penetration of 12" was necessary to increase stopping power.

9. The FBI chose the 10mm/.40 over the .45 due to it's lesser recoil, reduced muzzle flash, greater penetration, and larger magazine capacity.

10. While the 10mm/.40 edged out the .45, both were about 20% better than the 9mm across the board. Don't rule out the 9mm, though, as it's double-tapping accuracy is excellent. Since the FBI also determined most officers miss the suspect 80% of the time, shot placement is critical.
 
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45acpForMe

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<snip>

9. The FBI chose the 10mm/.40 over the .45 due to it's lesser recoil, reduced muzzle flash, greater penetration, and larger magazine capacity.

10. While the 10mm/.40 edged out the .45, both were about 20% better than the 9mm across the board.

Don't rule out the 9mm, though, as it's double-tapping accuracy is excellent. Since the FBI also determined most officers miss the suspect 80% of the time, shot placement is critical.

The way I understand it is that they chose the 10mm not 40S&W as the best all around round but then bait-n-switched everyone to 40S&W when people couldn't control the 10mm recoil.

I'll admit capacity is better the smaller you go in caliber size but it is always a trade off. I'll also admit that the above statement is garnered from reading this forum and no actual citeable data.

I have shot many calibers and I think 40S&W is one of the worst felt-recoil calibers. I don't even like 9mm compared to 45acp. I find it hard to believe that they found 10mm (or even 40S&W) to have less recoil or reduced muzzle flash than .45acp!!!!

I'll stick with .45acp and simply carry higher "normal" capacity versions of guns such as the Big Hawg and FNP-45 (USP also).
 
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scouser

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
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Location
804, VA
carry one of each, make a big hole with the 45 then fire the 9 into that hole so it penetrates further.

don't take that seriously, it was said tongue in cheek
 
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