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Thread: Home Defense Shotgon Loads

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    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Home Defense Shotgon Loads

    In the thread I posted on the home defense shotgun I just bought, there were a couple of comments concerning the loads to be used in a home defense situation. My own preference, based, ironically, on someone's post here, is #4 buckshot.

    What would you use, given the following types of residence:

    1. Standalone house with brick exterior and drywall interior walls?
    2. Standalone frame house with wood exterior and drywall interior?
    3. Close neighbors (less than 50') with #1?
    4. Close neighbors (less than 50') with #2?
    4. Apartment/condominium with brick exterior and drywall interior walls?
    5. Apartment/condominium with any exterior, drywall interior walls, but with masonry divisions between units?

    FWIW, my home fits the #3 description with the brick outside walls, I'm not too worried about hitting the neighbors inside their homes. What I do worry about is, in the event of civil unrest (read rioting), is being able to fend off more than one person intent on looting and destroying what is mine or doing, as a minimum, grave bodily harm to my bride or myself.

    Did I really type "shotgon" instead of "shotgun"? Told y'all on another thread that my fingers don't always type what my brain tells them to.
    Last edited by SFCRetired; 11-07-2011 at 05:31 PM. Reason: Senior moment

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    OK - one more try with the rules of conduct being observed this time.


    Don't think I've ever removed/deleted 9 posts on one thread before.
    Please stay on topic.
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    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    deleted.
    Last edited by Daylen; 11-06-2011 at 03:32 PM. Reason: other posts were deleted.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    I see the therapy didnt do much for you? Perhaps a few more weeks in the clinic will help you out this time? Relax, Nancy, I was busting your chops, tissues are in the back near the juice and cookies.
    I see you know a lot about where to get juice and cookies. You get this experience from the shopping run for the LTC? Sincerely, I want to know. I always wondered if this gave you extra errand skills or efficiency. Like going to the range, but for logistically minded career fobbits. (This is implied as comedy)

    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    and yes, "peoples" dogs, unless/until he clarifies that for himself, which I am sure he is capable of -on his own-without you having to get butthurt about it all. Most dogs are people's pets, usually. The myths of packs of dogs running about, and other urban-legends, aside..and again, either way- 70m and moving in the opposite direction =zero threat to him or his.
    You assumed the worst, jumped the gun, and made a terrible supposition. You make a habit of that.

    Out west a lot of people mistakenly refer to coyotes as "wild dogs". Yup, I disagree. They aren't "dogs". Nor are wolves "dogs". It's amazing though what the mind can do when its not preoccupied with being an ass.

    I also have a habit for speaking up or acting in defense of those who are being assaulted for no reason at all. I know you probably aren't terribly used to that concept, but, regardless of his ability to defend himself, I'll damn sure point out your error nad request you answer for it. Community forum and all...

    Oh wait. Are you one of those "this that and the other is private" kind of guys like georg jetson?
    Last edited by slowfiveoh; 11-06-2011 at 03:34 PM.
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    Personal responsibility is a facade created by religious people in particular...
    On "Personal Responsibility just after the previous, in the same exact thread.
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    Religion uses is as a tool, they did not create it.
    The wheels on the bus go round and round...round and round.

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    Oh,relax. Was just busting Nancy's chops. Heshe knows I was clowning.

    The killing of people's dogs with buckshot still deserves an answer,though.

    For the OP. -For your situation 00/000 should be just fine- no more likely to over-pen at those distances than any common handgun SD round, or rifle round. And if it's a SHTF moment with looting going on, Im pretty sure over-pen will be one of the less-likely things on your mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Oh,relax. Was just busting Nancy's chops. Heshe knows I was clowning.

    The killing of people's dogs with buckshot still deserves an answer,though.

    For the OP. -For your situation 00/000 should be just fine- no more likely to over-pen at those distances than any common handgun SD round, or rifle round. And if it's a SHTF moment with looting going on, Im pretty sure over-pen will be one of the less-likely things on your mind.
    I had an answer, but that seems to be off topic.

    On an unrelated note I like 3" 000 buck because it has great properties for defending home and property from a wide variety of threats from 4 legged to two legged; though probably best used on farms and Ranches, and not crowded urban settings due to penetrative abilities.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Then PM it, would be real interested in hearing justification for, and acquisition of the knowledge of, shooting dogs to death, and this way neither Nancy,nor Mary get their feewings hurt..

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Just for the heck of playing along as if the OP was serious, it seems the OP needs to start off by declaring what guage shotgun is planned for use. There's a big ballistic difference between 3" 000 out of a 12-guage and 2 3/4" 000 out of a .410.

    Which brings us to the question of why not using a .410 for HD? Yes, 15 000 out of a 12-guage is plenty, but 5 000 out of a .410 is sufficient. Anybody in the home deemed capable of using a firearm should be able to use a .410, while that cannot be said of even all the adults in a home.

    So let's see if we can veer towards a serious discussion, just for the heck of it.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Just for the heck of playing along as if the OP was serious, it seems the OP needs to start off by declaring what guage shotgun is planned for use. There's a big ballistic difference between 3" 000 out of a 12-guage and 2 3/4" 000 out of a .410.

    Which brings us to the question of why not using a .410 for HD? Yes, 15 000 out of a 12-guage is plenty, but 5 000 out of a .410 is sufficient. Anybody in the home deemed capable of using a firearm should be able to use a .410, while that cannot be said of even all the adults in a home.

    So let's see if we can veer towards a serious discussion, just for the heck of it.

    stay safe.
    When 410 of anything is compared to 12ga it will be puny. However 000 buck in a 410 is probably the best bet for a good defensive load in a 410. On the downside its only 4 or 5 (big) pellets. In a home shot will likely not have enough distance to spread much, meaning that the chance to hit is not determined by the load. This means #4, 00 and 000 differ only in terminal ballistics effectively. I think the 000 is the better choice because they are simple shot, meaning diameter is needed to ensure adequate permanent wound chamber in depth and girth. Also, in cold areas 00, and 000 especially, will be better against well jacketed intruders.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    ^exactly.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Never rely on the "spread" of the shot as being anything but a marginal consideration in home defense situations - 2", 3" maybe 6" isn't really a large pattern.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Ironbar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    In the thread I posted on the home defense shotgun I just bought, there were a couple of comments concerning the loads to be used in a home defense situation. My own preference, based, ironically, on someone's post here, is #4 buckshot.

    What would you use, given the following types of residence:

    1. Standalone house with brick exterior and drywall interior walls?
    2. Standalone frame house with wood exterior and drywall interior?
    3. Close neighbors (less than 50') with #1?
    4. Close neighbors (less than 50') with #2?
    4. Apartment/condominium with brick exterior and drywall interior walls?
    5. Apartment/condominium with any exterior, drywall interior walls, but with masonry divisions between units?

    FWIW, my home fits the #3 description with the brick outside walls, I'm not too worried about hitting the neighbors inside their homes. What I do worry about is, in the event of civil unrest (read rioting), is being able to fend off more than one person intent on looting and destroying what is mine or doing, as a minimum, grave bodily harm to my bride or myself.
    I refuse to answer on the grounds that I have already had one post deleted over this ridiculous thread.

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    Have you ever considered Centurion Multi Defense? It is basically a ball and buck round. It has a single .650 ball sitting on top of 6 #1 buck. It's range is limited in an outdoor situation, but shouldn't be an issue in the confines of a home. Here's a link to it.

    http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM823-5.html
    AUDE VIDE TACE

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    But again, it's not really the round that's going to be used that will give the OP the most elegant answer - it's the combination of the round in the particular firearm within the particular distances. Heck, at contact distances lead dust would be extremely lethal without having to wait years for its effects to be seen.

    There seem to be 3 main camps: 1) 12-guage; 2) 20-guage; and 3) the .410. Let's stipulate an 18 1/4 inch barrel for all of them. And that we are talking shot only - no slugs. And let's stipulate that the OP is really concerned about keeping everything inside when shooting across room-sized distances. (While I would personally prefer to keep everything within the room, I guess we are going to agree to accept penetration through interior walls as long as nothing penetrates the outer walls.)

    1. Standalone house with brick exterior and drywall interior walls? Shooting across an exterior-walled room towards the exterior, 12- and 20-guage are going to penetrate the exterior wall with pretty much anything larger than #4 buck. Same for penetrating interior walls. .410 000 probably will not penetrate the exterior but may penetrate the interior walls.
    2. Standalone frame house with wood exterior and drywall interior? Shooting across an exterior-walled room towards the exterior, 12- and 20-guage are going to penetrate the exterior wall with pretty much anything larger than #4 buck. Same for penetrating interior walls. .410 000 probably will not penetrate the exterior but may penetrate the interior walls.
    3. Close neighbors (less than 50') with #1? see above.
    4. Close neighbors (less than 50') with #2? see above.
    4. Apartment/condominium with brick exterior and drywall interior walls? see above.
    5. Apartment/condominium with any exterior, drywall interior walls, but with masonry divisions between units? Shooting across an exterior-walled room towards the exterior, 12- and 20-guage are going to penetrate the exterior wall with pretty much anything larger than #4 buck. Masonry firewalls may stop 000 buck but 00 buck will be iffy. Same for penetrating interior walls. .410 000 probably will not penetrate the exterior but may penetrate the interior walls. Should not be a concern regarding masonry firewalls.

    This scientific exposition is based on an unpublished SWAG based on my memory. Anybody that wants to is invited to check out The Box O' Truth for somewhat more rigorous proofs of what will do what.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavageOne View Post
    Have you ever considered Centurion Multi Defense? It is basically a ball and buck round. It has a single .650 ball sitting on top of 6 #1 buck. It's range is limited in an outdoor situation, but shouldn't be an issue in the confines of a home. Here's a link to it.

    http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM823-5.html
    I think Ball is a mistake for a shotgun in a home. Slugs are good at going straight through things and not stopping. I'd elaborate, but I've already had a post deleted in this thread because of elaboration.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Not always-^^- I've tested slugs and PDX1 in 12 ga. through a computer tower and into phonebooks, just to see, and they wrecked it, but did not penetrate all the way through it-
    this was from an 18 in. 870 @ about 30 ft. So, I wouldnt assume it could penetrate most exterior walls completely, either..













    Last edited by j4l; 11-06-2011 at 09:29 PM.

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    Just how tough do you think exterior walls are? You might want to make a small section of wall to test instead of trying to draw equivalence to something completely unrelated.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Well, it varies, depending on the home, and what it's made of, doesnt it? So one cant make a blanket statement that Round X in Caliber Y, IS/ISNT going to pen this, or not pen that, no. But, next chance I get with some decent weather, Ill test .45acp, .25 acp (more on that in a sec), .410 in #4, #6 and 000, and 12 ga in 00 buck and PDX1 on brick and cinder block, and steel exterior doors, if that'll make you feel any better. (I already know the results, though)

    BUT- it is related when you get down to it: Any reasonably well-built home is going to have exterior walls built of tougher materials than a phone book (Id hope-if not, you need to be looking into some lawsuits). So if round X cant even make it through a phone book @ 30 ft, I have little concern of it passing through Cinder block or brick, and even some woods (short of log cabins).

    But I'll spoil things for you: the 2 rounds I've tested here at home that have out-penetrated everything else, have been .45 GDHP in 230 grains, and Gold Dots in .25 auto @35 grains. In fact, the .25 round hasnt been stopped by ANYTHING I've yet fired it into. I blows holes through things and keeps right on going down-range, albeit somewhat off-course.
    Consider also, that the 230 gr GDHPs have out-penned even 230 Hardball in almost every instance- even when they've fully expanded- EXCEPT for phone books.
    Why? who knows, but that's what my actual tests have shown me.

    I dont just sit around wondering to myself (or just accepting interweb forum fantasies about what Ammo X will or wont do) if my ammo will or wont penetrate X ,Y,or Z materials- when I pick up a box of ammo, I load up, go out back and find out for myself 1st-hand, so that I know for sure.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Well, it varies, depending on the home, and what it's made of, doesnt it? So one cant make a blanket statement that Round X in Caliber Y, IS/ISNT going to pen this, or not pen that, no. But, next chance I get with some decent weather, Ill test .45acp, .25 acp (more on that in a sec), .410 in #4, #6 and 000, and 12 ga in 00 buck and PDX1 on brick and cinder block, and steel exterior doors, if that'll make you feel any better. (I already know the results, though)

    BUT- it is related when you get down to it: Any reasonably well-built home is going to have exterior walls built of tougher materials than a phone book (Id hope-if not, you need to be looking into some lawsuits). So if round X cant even make it through a phone book @ 30 ft, I have little concern of it passing through Cinder block or brick, and even some woods (short of log cabins).

    But I'll spoil things for you: the 2 rounds I've tested here at home that have out-penetrated everything else, have been .45 GDHP in 230 grains, and Gold Dots in .25 auto @35 grains. In fact, the .25 round hasnt been stopped by ANYTHING I've yet fired it into. I blows holes through things and keeps right on going down-range, albeit somewhat off-course.
    Consider also, that the 230 gr GDHPs have out-penned even 230 Hardball in almost every instance- even when they've fully expanded- EXCEPT for phone books.
    Why? who knows, but that's what my actual tests have shown me.

    I dont just sit around wondering to myself (or just accepting interweb forum fantasies about what Ammo X will or wont do) if my ammo will or wont penetrate X ,Y,or Z materials- when I pick up a box of ammo, I load up, go out back and find out for myself 1st-hand, so that I know for sure.
    Best line up your civil attorney - most exterior building material excepting brick, concrete or stone can easily be penetrated/breached with a claw hammer using very little force.

    Have no idea what guns you own, but the idea that .25 ACP will out penetrate virtually anything else and continue down range is ludicrous not supported by either knowledgeable testers or ballistics.

    BTW - there is a major difference in using dry phone books and ones well soaked in water. The latter are much more dense.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    Well, it varies, depending on the home, and what it's made of, doesnt it? So one cant make a blanket statement that Round X in Caliber Y, IS/ISNT going to pen this, or not pen that, no. But, next chance I get with some decent weather, Ill test .45acp, .25 acp (more on that in a sec), .410 in #4, #6 and 000, and 12 ga in 00 buck and PDX1 on brick and cinder block, and steel exterior doors, if that'll make you feel any better. (I already know the results, though)

    BUT- it is related when you get down to it: Any reasonably well-built home is going to have exterior walls built of tougher materials than a phone book (Id hope-if not, you need to be looking into some lawsuits). So if round X cant even make it through a phone book @ 30 ft, I have little concern of it passing through Cinder block or brick, and even some woods (short of log cabins).

    But I'll spoil things for you: the 2 rounds I've tested here at home that have out-penetrated everything else, have been .45 GDHP in 230 grains, and Gold Dots in .25 auto @35 grains. In fact, the .25 round hasnt been stopped by ANYTHING I've yet fired it into. I blows holes through things and keeps right on going down-range, albeit somewhat off-course.
    Consider also, that the 230 gr GDHPs have out-penned even 230 Hardball in almost every instance- even when they've fully expanded- EXCEPT for phone books.
    Why? who knows, but that's what my actual tests have shown me.

    I dont just sit around wondering to myself (or just accepting interweb forum fantasies about what Ammo X will or wont do) if my ammo will or wont penetrate X ,Y,or Z materials- when I pick up a box of ammo, I load up, go out back and find out for myself 1st-hand, so that I know for sure.
    I think you need to learn more about exterior and interior walls... sheet rock is not very tough, neither is insulation and vinyl siding is not exactly bullet proof, nor is wood siding. Phone books backed with metal is much more of a barrier to a bullet than some insulation, 3/8" of drywall, and some vinyl/singlewoodplank. Not many houses I've seen are made of cinder block, brick might be common, but I'd be fired of drawing equivalence as you did.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    "there is a major difference in using dry phone books and ones well soaked in water. The latter are much more dense. "

    Backfire, much? lol Ty, you prove my point- yes it ISNT as dense- all the more reason that most rounds that wont even pen the dry, probably arent going to pen even more dense materials.

    And to dog-killer. sheetrock exterior walls? rly? are u bloody kidding me?

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    Daylen, I think what J4l is trying to say is that just because it will go through some wall materials don't mean it will breech all walls. It deffiently won't go through my exterior walls. I have 8'' thick wooden walls that would, if I was a guessing man, stop all up to and including a .308, the most powerful rifle I own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    "there is a major difference in using dry phone books and ones well soaked in water. The latter are much more dense. "

    Backfire, much? lol Ty, you prove my point- yes it ISNT as dense- all the more reason that most rounds that wont even pen the dry, probably arent going to pen even more dense materials.

    And to dog-killer. sheetrock exterior walls? rly? are u bloody kidding me?
    so the exterior walls on your home have no sheet rock? just bare cinderblocks? Do you live in prison? Most homes have sheet rock on the interior side of exterior walls.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Daylen, I think what J4l is trying to say is that just because it will go through some wall materials don't mean it will breech all walls. It deffiently won't go through my exterior walls. I have 8'' thick wooden walls that would, if I was a guessing man, stop all up to and including a .308, the most powerful rifle I own.
    If so then his sentence structure is very poor and statement very useless.
    Don't believe any facts that I say! This is the internet and it is filled with lies and untruth. I invite you to look up for yourself the basic facts that my arguments might be based upon. This way we can have a discussion where logic and hints on where to find information are what is brought to the forum and people look up and verify facts for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFCRetired View Post
    What would you use, given the following types of residence:

    1. Standalone house with brick exterior and drywall interior walls?
    2. Standalone frame house with wood exterior and drywall interior?
    3. Close neighbors (less than 50') with #1?
    4. Close neighbors (less than 50') with #2?
    4. Apartment/condominium with brick exterior and drywall interior walls?
    5. Apartment/condominium with any exterior, drywall interior walls, but with masonry divisions between units?
    In all of them I would be well armed with a 20 gauge and #4 shot minimum. BB shot maximum. At maximum range in any of those scenarios I doubt you would have more then 3 or 4 " spread with a fairly open choke and with my gun it would be a hole I can barely get my thumb through. Outside the house make mine 00 but indoors I don;t feel you need large shot to put a stop to a determined attacker. If he can take a load of #4 shot to his face at 20' he is a tougher man than I.

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